UK Police helicopter budget cuts
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Props, no one is being attacked, it is debate from people who DO the job. How would you feel if I suggested that we lower the pilot min requirement to 500 hrs with no mil experience a benefit and offer say 40k. I'm sure there would be plenty of takers who would do a very reasonable job. And what if I were to go into the ins and outs of the benefits here even though I'm not a pilot? I'm sure you would have plenty to say.
I'm afraid your post has so many holes that I really don't have time to address them all but just for example:
As you probably know most if not all pilots out there are Cops who have been trained as pilots. Actually come to think of it you are right! Why don't we train the observers to be pilots. What a saving that could be - pilots on coppers wages and lets face it most of our jobs are only back garden searches aren't they?
Exactly , and PLEASE believe me, as someone who actually DOES the job (for many years) that you cannot effectively do this single crewed.
If you actually had any idea of the FULL functionality of that kit you would know that it needs two.
Is that so???
I'm afraid your post has so many holes that I really don't have time to address them all but just for example:
The yanks have been doing a good job of chasing people in cars and on foot for longer than the UK.
its all about command and control and directing the cops on the ground
just have a look at the Mets 145 bit of kit and how many screens the chap in the back has,
no wonder its too heavy.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Props stopped;
There is a lot in your last post I could comment on, however, the second to last line says it all.
You might have done single crew blah blah blah and found it no problem, but what did the observer think? Besides, some of us end up with a shedful of various jobs in one sector, including city foot chases, city pursuits and take my word for it, it's a bit of a handful even just to keep the camera on the vehicle, let alone the commentary etc!
Why do you think garden searches are so simple?
What happens when they run?
It's ok for you to sit there circling, but PC Keepingyouhappy, is trying to keep the offender on the camera wishing he knew which road he was running down, what junction is next, which officer is which, where is the dog man and what is his callsign etc.
I think you confuse the Double Crew Myth with the American System Myth;
They may well operate single crewed, I don't know for certain but what I do know though, is that on all of the TV programmes using their footage, I cannot hear a word of commentary or tactical advice to the officers on the ground.
It seems to me that if you want a system similar to the one it appears they use in America, give Mike Smith a ring and use G-PIXX.
I'm just a driver like yourself, however it seems we differ somewhat in that I appreciate the workload of the observers that I work, rest and play with.
There is a lot in your last post I could comment on, however, the second to last line says it all.
You might have done single crew blah blah blah and found it no problem, but what did the observer think? Besides, some of us end up with a shedful of various jobs in one sector, including city foot chases, city pursuits and take my word for it, it's a bit of a handful even just to keep the camera on the vehicle, let alone the commentary etc!
Why do you think garden searches are so simple?
What happens when they run?
It's ok for you to sit there circling, but PC Keepingyouhappy, is trying to keep the offender on the camera wishing he knew which road he was running down, what junction is next, which officer is which, where is the dog man and what is his callsign etc.
I think you confuse the Double Crew Myth with the American System Myth;
They may well operate single crewed, I don't know for certain but what I do know though, is that on all of the TV programmes using their footage, I cannot hear a word of commentary or tactical advice to the officers on the ground.
It seems to me that if you want a system similar to the one it appears they use in America, give Mike Smith a ring and use G-PIXX.
I'm just a driver like yourself, however it seems we differ somewhat in that I appreciate the workload of the observers that I work, rest and play with.
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Loving the debate so far, I actually wrote 5 or six paragraphs earlier but I was so angry I had to delete it........
Police officers have spent years on the ground chasing criminals so you would think it a natural progression to put officers in the aircraft that know what going on down there.
It takes 6 to 12 months for an AO to get up to speed, lets halve the AO numbers in the aircraft, double the workload for the one thats left and make him a civie!
You are more than welcome to come work with me for a night conducting a Misper search on the coast involving 2 FCCs, Coast Guard, Ground units, Flir, Skyforce and Nightsun and then tell me .......
oh but the Yanks can do it!!!!
Police officers have spent years on the ground chasing criminals so you would think it a natural progression to put officers in the aircraft that know what going on down there.
It takes 6 to 12 months for an AO to get up to speed, lets halve the AO numbers in the aircraft, double the workload for the one thats left and make him a civie!
You are more than welcome to come work with me for a night conducting a Misper search on the coast involving 2 FCCs, Coast Guard, Ground units, Flir, Skyforce and Nightsun and then tell me .......
oh but the Yanks can do it!!!!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Just back from the school run and I reckon that I saw wright123 driving the refuse truck at the end of our road.
Sat next to him was propsstopped and I could hear then talking about how easy it was being a bin man, in fact he didn't seem to understand why there was 4 of them putting the wheelie bins on the back when surely one could do the job just as well now that the bins have wheels.
Sat next to him was propsstopped and I could hear then talking about how easy it was being a bin man, in fact he didn't seem to understand why there was 4 of them putting the wheelie bins on the back when surely one could do the job just as well now that the bins have wheels.
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Well all this goes to show again how little people know outside of the aircraft what is actually involved in being a Police aircraft. Be they Joe Bloggs or Chief Constable. The only solution is to either watch the observers at work or take their word for how it should be run.
I am a driver and after 4 years being on the unit I took the chance of sitting in the back and watch the bobbies at work and let me tell you even after working 4 years alongside those same chaps I was mightily impressed what the bobbies have to put up with and what they achieve.
My suggestion is to you who think they know, have a sit in the back and watch.
@Silsoe Sid
I am a driver and after 4 years being on the unit I took the chance of sitting in the back and watch the bobbies at work and let me tell you even after working 4 years alongside those same chaps I was mightily impressed what the bobbies have to put up with and what they achieve.
My suggestion is to you who think they know, have a sit in the back and watch.
@Silsoe Sid
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
2896
Have I had too much Rioja ?
I thought 2896 and I were saying the same thing.
Just for info, apart from sitting next to the observer in the front, I do sometimes sit in the back and watch, then fill out a load of forms!
My suggestion is to you who think they know, have a sit in the back and watch.
@Silsoe Sid
@Silsoe Sid
Have I had too much Rioja ?
I thought 2896 and I were saying the same thing.
Just for info, apart from sitting next to the observer in the front, I do sometimes sit in the back and watch, then fill out a load of forms!
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We had some very difficult choices to make, and just like everywhere else,
savings have had to be made - because of the situation we were left in by the previous Government.
We commissioned some very Senior people from the Police Service - including the head of ACPO Air Support
and others with expert knowledge in this field, to come up with a solution
to providing an enhanced and more efficient Air Support service at a reduced cost.
It was genuinely believed that by moving to a National Air Support model
fewer aircraft would be needed to provide the same, if not better service,
while achieving the savings that were needed.
After a year of operating the National Air Support scheme, it has become apparant from analysis of the statistics,
that while some money has been saved in some areas, this has been far less than was forecast,
and the expected efficiency improvements have not materialised.
It was the right thing to do at the time, because until we tried it, we could not be certain that it would work,
and drastic times sometimes call for drastic measures, but it is important that we learn from the process and move forwards,
continuing to examine and identify areas for efficiency improvement and cost savings.
Oh, and please vote for me again at the next election
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Just thought I'd help out with a suggestion for a future speech
savings have had to be made - because of the situation we were left in by the previous Government.
We commissioned some very Senior people from the Police Service - including the head of ACPO Air Support
and others with expert knowledge in this field, to come up with a solution
to providing an enhanced and more efficient Air Support service at a reduced cost.
It was genuinely believed that by moving to a National Air Support model
fewer aircraft would be needed to provide the same, if not better service,
while achieving the savings that were needed.
After a year of operating the National Air Support scheme, it has become apparant from analysis of the statistics,
that while some money has been saved in some areas, this has been far less than was forecast,
and the expected efficiency improvements have not materialised.
It was the right thing to do at the time, because until we tried it, we could not be certain that it would work,
and drastic times sometimes call for drastic measures, but it is important that we learn from the process and move forwards,
continuing to examine and identify areas for efficiency improvement and cost savings.
Oh, and please vote for me again at the next election
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Just thought I'd help out with a suggestion for a future speech
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Silsoe - Bins and the snow.
Silsoe,
Them bins didnt get emptied this week, as I couldnt get into the roads due to all this inclement weather...I did wave by the way, but didnt need props in the cab, as I do it all single crewed, didnt you know
As for pursuit commentary which was mentioned, when TPAC is called usually at the start of the merry conga line of traffic and panda cars, your lucky to get a word in these days - unless you get permission off the ground commander of course
Them bins didnt get emptied this week, as I couldnt get into the roads due to all this inclement weather...I did wave by the way, but didnt need props in the cab, as I do it all single crewed, didnt you know
As for pursuit commentary which was mentioned, when TPAC is called usually at the start of the merry conga line of traffic and panda cars, your lucky to get a word in these days - unless you get permission off the ground commander of course
Last edited by wright123; 3rd Dec 2010 at 19:02. Reason: tpac -radio's
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Aaah, the luxury of motorway pursuits.
Try a bit more urban and it's definitely not a single crew environment.
As it happens, our bins were emptied this morning.
Then again, I guess that you being single crewed having a little problem out of the plain & simple humdrum way of life present itself, meant that you simply couldn't cope ;-)
Try a bit more urban and it's definitely not a single crew environment.
As it happens, our bins were emptied this morning.
Then again, I guess that you being single crewed having a little problem out of the plain & simple humdrum way of life present itself, meant that you simply couldn't cope ;-)
In a serious incident (unless you want a helmet fire) you need 2 observers, all 3 Police radios will be going at once, the rear guy is map reading and the front seat is on the camera. Single Obs can't do that, no matter how good some Obs are.
Night/Day casevacs are done single crew unless we divert while on another job.
Night/Day casevacs are done single crew unless we divert while on another job.
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when TPAC is called usually at the start of the merry conga line of traffic and panda cars, your lucky to get a word in these days
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I've often flown single crewed in poor weather due to staffing problems and some observers not wanting to do overtime with other observers, you know what its like at times.
boss "does any one want any over time on nights"
obs " who's it with"
boss "wright123"
obs " er no chance hes a right
t"boss "go on its double time"
obs "have you gone deaf boss"
boss" ah ok then thought I would offer as christmas is coming, but it does not really matter cause he's quite happy to fly single crewed any way. But come to think of it never really seems to get many results when you check easytask to see who's doing all the work mmmm
"
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Not sure how to quote:
'I've often flown single crewed in poor weather due to staffing problems and some observers not wanting to do overtime with other observers, you know what its like at times.'
Sounds like a bit of a CRM nightmare!!
'I've often flown single crewed in poor weather due to staffing problems and some observers not wanting to do overtime with other observers, you know what its like at times.'
Sounds like a bit of a CRM nightmare!!
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Very much back onto the thread subject;
After a looooong foggy day, and a burning calculator, it would seem that taking flying rates, fuel charges and landing fees into account, at todays prices, it appears that there would be a significant saving if the decision about the 'Midlands Plan' was the other way round !
And that's not including the present plans' additional costs of having to get planning permission, building new secure facilities, extra rent, etc. etc.
And that's not including the present plans' additional costs of having to get planning permission, building new secure facilities, extra rent, etc. etc.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
And of course there is this 20 minute reaction time malarky
Can someone please tell me what there is 20 minutes away, within the arc NW-S, of the base where 'The Plan' wants to place 2 aircraft?
Then notice what is in the 20 minute circle, if the decision about the 'Midlands Plan' was the other way round !
Then notice what is in the 20 minute circle, if the decision about the 'Midlands Plan' was the other way round !
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For a maintenance point of view, if NPAS say they are going to provide the same support does this mean the same amount of hours will be flown PA?
If so, then less aircraft = more hours per airframe, which in turn means more regular servicing (400, 800 etc) which in the long run is more expensive (I can't be bothered to do the sums though...), and also means harder worked aircraft, more downtime, and they will need replacing sooner.
But I'm sure this has all been thought out...
If so, then less aircraft = more hours per airframe, which in turn means more regular servicing (400, 800 etc) which in the long run is more expensive (I can't be bothered to do the sums though...), and also means harder worked aircraft, more downtime, and they will need replacing sooner.
But I'm sure this has all been thought out...
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rotarywingB2-have NPAS actually said at any point how they actually intend to provide anything ? pilots, maintenance observers etc,etc
Sid- or even consider if you put 2 aircraft at the same base they can only possibly have THE SAME 20min circle - so whats the point of that! they've just created a big open area of no cover where you USED to be in order to cover everywhere more effectively
Sid- or even consider if you put 2 aircraft at the same base they can only possibly have THE SAME 20min circle - so whats the point of that! they've just created a big open area of no cover where you USED to be in order to cover everywhere more effectively