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Another Attack On A Police Helicopter

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Old 15th Jun 2009, 12:33
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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I do seem to have ruffled some feathers - I'll address some points if I can:

Originally Posted by SiloeSid
Glad you've seen it now! "around"
Brilliant, lets rely on semantics. So, if there is a fight in the terminal, or some protesters on the runway, who do BHX call? Face up to the fact that WMP are responsible for prevention / detection of crime at BHX. Yes, security of the site itself is the responsbility of BHX, but even that is most likely in conjunction with WMP.

Originally Posted by volrider
So Helicraig, I park my new car in a secure carpark that states it has aprivate security firm that does regular patrols etc, it gets torched and I sit and think "Oh well its my fault".... Yeah Ok...I wonder if you had not had a bad experience with the police would you still argue the point so much?
Of course I wouldn't think that. I have also not said that it is WMP's fault their helicopter got torched, I have said that their assessment of the risk was faulty.

If that same sign from your analogy had a large copy of a press article highlighting how bad the security has been in the recent past and I still chose to park there, then I at least can't say I didn't know the risk. BHX security was subject to numerous press articles and an entire 30 documentary on prime time television. Also, my car isn't a high profile anti criminal asset and as far as I am aware I haven't acquired any "enemies" with grudges to bear (except perhaps you & Sid maybe! ). It all about the risk assessment... it must have been wrong for this to happen so easily.

Originally Posted by SiloeSid
Of course the Police Helicopter is always available 24/7 for life saving flights if needed, anywhere in the region in addition to the Air Ambulances if the numbers of casualties require it. Don't forget Air Ambulances can go u/s sometimes and incidents can have multiple life threatening injuries!
If all else fails, bring emotions and fear back in to it? Good plan. Lets not even start the debate about why HEMS don't fly at night shall we?

Originally Posted by SiloeSid
I hope the finger waggers here (if the cap fits) are now happy and feeling safer in their smug little world now they don't have the 24/7 out of hours cover.
Not sure if this is aimed at me or not. For the record though, I am wagging my finger only at the risk assessment and security provided. I do not feel safer, quite the contrary. As I said earlier, it was a very bad day for us all.

Originally Posted by NamibFox
What will you tolerate? Should criminals be allowed to burn your local police station, because you have had a run in with the police and feel hard done by (rightly or wrongly)?
No. I have not at any point said what happened was right, or good. I have said the exact opposite. And my run in with two traffic cops has little to do with it.

Originally Posted by Fortyodd2
The Warwickshire heli does exist and lives in the same hangar as the Leicestershire and Northamptonshire heli.
That was Sid's point, I believe.
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Old 15th Jun 2009, 19:56
  #182 (permalink)  

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Helicraig,

I think you are getting there all by yourself.

Can you tell me who is responsible for crime prevention / detection / public security at BHX?
Yes, security of the site itself is the responsbility of BHX,


Originally Posted by SiloeSid
Of course the Police Helicopter is always available 24/7 for life saving flights if needed, anywhere in the region in addition to the Air Ambulances if the numbers of casualties require it. Don't forget Air Ambulances can go u/s sometimes and incidents can have multiple life threatening injuries!

If all else fails, bring emotions and fear back in to it? Good plan. Lets not even start the debate about why HEMS don't fly at night shall we?
Finally realised the value of what has been lost eh...!

Not so ...'Riding through the glen with his band of merry men' ...now, is it!
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Old 15th Jun 2009, 19:59
  #183 (permalink)  

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I have also not said that it is WMP's fault their helicopter got torched, I have said that their assessment of the risk was faulty.
Mmmm, so what does all these comments point to?;

At best its embarrassing, at worst its incompetent.
They were incapable of protecting there own aircraft, that much is fact, it was in their charge and it got set fire to.

but you must surely admit that WMP could have done more

My criticism's were entirely leveled at the force as a whole for, in my opinion, relying too heavily on the "its a major intl airport" argument with regard to security. The security at BHX has been subject of public derision in the past (reported here), so WMP can have (again in my opinion) no excuse save for complacency as the attack itself doesn't appear to be particular sophisticated (well planned, yes).

That and the fact that WMP failed to assess it as such despite previous high profile warnings. So yes, if thats having a go at WMP then so be it.


At some point will you admit that perhaps someone, somewhere in WMP made a mistake here?

Is it a tad embarrassing that a clothes retailer looks after its jeans better than BHX protects a major international airport, and one of the countries biggest police forces didn't notice?

You're only really proving my point that it WMP believe they can do no wrong, and refuse to admit when mistakes have been made!

And perhaps I am anti-police;
Perhaps!
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Old 15th Jun 2009, 21:10
  #184 (permalink)  

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HeliCraig...Do not read this;

15 June (today)
Police-helicopter-called-to-help

or even this separate story;

15 June (today)
Helicopter_called_to_help_find_missing_boy/
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Old 15th Jun 2009, 21:17
  #185 (permalink)  

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And while I'm at it...published today;

Eye-in-the-sky

"The fact the aircraft can re-role from being a police-based air support unit to provide medical support tand being used as an air ambulance within minutes is very significant."

The police helicopter crew was recently praised for their "brilliant work" after saving a young woman from the brink of drowning in a dramatic river rescue.

The woman had become stranded in thick mud and was neck-deep in the River Nene near Wisbech when she was dragged to safety just minutes before she would have been swallowed up by rising tidal waters.

Pictures released by Cambridgeshire police showed the moment she was spotted by the force chopper's thermal imaging camera."
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Old 15th Jun 2009, 21:26
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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Sacking

Hi SkidKid,

Not me mate. I was Chief Pilot at NAAS for three years (working for PAS) and then resigned to come back up to the NS to get some "Pension Time" in. Left PAS and NAAS on Good Terms.

No-one got sacked during my tenure so not sure what/who you are referring to.

Regards
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Old 15th Jun 2009, 21:37
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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Plod Bashing

Having read the last few pages of this thread I am feeling a bit guilty for my apparent "Plod Bashing" as I was critical of the unit and should not have been.

The Plod do an unenviable task in a pretty thankless society on the whole and all of the Bobbies I worked with up and down the Country seemed to possess an almost endless patience with members of the public that generally left me feeling pretty humbled.

Sure there are some **** bobbies just like there are **** pilots and sadly it is the minority who seem to tar the majority when they do something nasty or make a mistake.

On reflection I take the point that the AC must be at immediate readiness to make the tasks viable but somehow this has to be balanced by adequate security to ensure the AC is safe and more importantly (god forbid) that the crews (often only three alone in dead of night) are also safe.

The challenge for the Boss Bobbies is how to achieve this balance!!

Good luck to all and hope to WM get back in the air asap.
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Old 16th Jun 2009, 09:27
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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Sid,

Please stop it with the stories of the good work you do, once again resorting to emotional marketing. I have not once said that the aircraft, or the ASU (you) do anything other than an exceptional job in often very difficult circumstances. I just wouldn't do that.

What I have said is that someone at WMP has made a mistake with regard to their assessment of the security, which was patently inadequate. That is all.

I have not engaged in any personal insults or derision, so perhaps you could refrain from the same also?

Its obvious that you won't admit that someone got something wrong when they assessed the security of BHX, so we will have to agree to differ.

For the record, once and for all: What happened to the heli is awful, and can have only been perpetrated by the lowest form of life. It was a sad day for us all, and we lost a very good ship and a massive public resource. We are fortunate that no-one was hurt and it was attacked on the ground. I hope that when WMP do find the culprits that the book is thrown at them. WMP ASU (and all other ASU's) do a fantastic job on our behalf, and the world would be a darker place without them. I hope that you get back in the air pronto.
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Old 16th Jun 2009, 11:16
  #189 (permalink)  
 
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HeliCraig,

If the aircraft resides within the airport perimeter, which it does, then surely the inadequacy lies in the security of the airport perimeter itself.

Looking at the pictures, it seems once through that perimeter fence - you're in! Nothing else lies between you and any aircraft within the airport perimeter.

I'm interested to know, what would your opinion be if it was a Monarch aircraft that was attacked? Is it then Monarch who have "made a mistake with regard to their assessment of the security, which was patently inadequate"?

GD.
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Old 16th Jun 2009, 20:34
  #190 (permalink)  
 
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think...

Helicraig...

For the record, once and for all: What happened to the heli is awful, and can have only been perpetrated by the lowest form of life. It was a sad day for us all, and we lost a very good ship and a massive public resource. We are fortunate that no-one was hurt and it was attacked on the ground. I hope that when WMP do find the culprits that the book is thrown at them. WMP ASU (and all other ASU's) do a fantastic job on our behalf, and the world would be a darker place without them. I hope that you get back in the air pronto.
nice post maybe you should have thought of that a little sooner
rather than making a bit of a mamory of yourself
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Old 16th Jun 2009, 23:52
  #191 (permalink)  
 
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I've followed this thread with a mixture of fascination and disbelief.

Heli-cal made the sort of comments I expect of him and left.

Helicraig
You started with
..... their "playing the victim" in it is ever so slightly galling ....... if they can't look after their own helicopter it really doesn't bode well for the rest of us does it? At best its embarrassing, at worst its incompetent. I think it is probably somewhere between the two!
"playing the victim" in it is ever so slightly galling
What on earth does that mean?
Are they not victims of crime even if (in your opinion) they could have done more to prevent it?

If they can't look after their own helicopter it really doesn't bode well for the rest of us does it?
Was that meant to be a sensible comment or were you just trying to provoke a reaction?

You've since made several posts in similar vein.
Why is it so important to you to that others agree with you?

I have a grudge to bear against WMP
You may well have very good reason. Unfortunately, some police officers needlessly antagonise members of the public who would otherwise have continued to be staunch supporters. (eg By adopting an arrogant manner, or by reporting trivia instead of giving a warning.) However, I wonder if perhaps you're allowing the experience you describe to cloud your judgment here.

.

Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 17th Jun 2009 at 07:22.
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Old 17th Jun 2009, 00:17
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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Flying Lawyer said;

Heli-cal made the sort of comments I expect of him and left.
Actually Tudor, since being informed of the sudden death of a friend, I've been quite busy and have not had the opportunity to address certain points which have been made!
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Old 17th Jun 2009, 02:22
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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OK - there have been a number of suggestions from different people, that they might move out - but where would they go

It's easy to say "buy a trolley, stick it in a hangar, surround the hangar with a trench / moat / drawbridge / electrified fencing etc." but WHERE exactly ?

The West Midlands Police area is relatively small and densely populated, meaning there would be planning permission issues / noise complaints if sited too near to houses, but it would also need to be within striking distance of their operating area to achieve the same response times.

I can't think of anywhere suitable off the top of my head - everywhere I look on my map that seems like it might be a good spot has electricity pylons and wires all over the pace, so - who knows the West Midlands area well enough from those suggesting a move - to come up with a sensible / workable alternative ?


Last edited by Coconutty; 17th Jun 2009 at 02:24. Reason: So I don't get shouted at for cr@p spelling !
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Old 17th Jun 2009, 06:29
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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heli-cal

I'm sorry to hear you've lost a friend.

Ironically, pointing out that you'd left the discussion was intended to be the complimentary part of my comment.
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Old 17th Jun 2009, 10:29
  #195 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by General Dread
I'm interested to know, what would your opinion be if it was a Monarch aircraft that was attacked?
A very good point indeed. I think it comes back to public perception (which I will touch on again in a moment in reply to Tudor), but people have a higher expectation of WMP than they do of Monarch etc when it comes to organising security / assessing risk. If it were another aircraft that were damaged, people would be asking questions of BHX and WMP as to why the security was so easily circumvented, why there was no intelligence (accepting not always possible), and what would be done in future to prevent a re-occurance. This is what has been asked of Stanstead & Essex police, and London City & The Met in light of their recent security problems.

Another point of course is that generally Monarch etc don't use their aircraft to curtail the activities of criminals, and thus can reasonably expect not to attract unwanted attention from them more than WMP can. It is a very high profile anti-criminal asset afterall.

Originally Posted by B.U.D.G.I.E
nice post maybe you should have thought of that a little sooner rather than making a bit of a mamory of yourself
I have meant that all along, and admit that I perhaps haven't put it in every post Budgie, but my first post did contain the following statement:
Originally Posted by HeliCraig
Now, my little rant about WMP over - this is an absolute tragedy for us
And yes, I haven't made some of my points particularly well at times, however as others have presented a differing point of view mine has altered in response. Like many others, I am not always 100% right; however unlike others I am prepared to admit that and possibly change my position as I learn. Surely a benefit of an informed debate?

Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
"playing the victim" in it is ever so slightly galling
What on earth does that mean? Are they not victims of crime even if (in your opinion) they could have done more to prevent it?
When I watched the video of the senior officer (think Deputy Chief Constable) giving a press statement about the incident I personally found his demeanor to be too skewed to the "we are a victim" argument. However, you are entirely correct they are indeed a victim of crime and are entitled to feel aggrieved about it.

Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
Was that meant to be a sensible comment or were you just trying to provoke a reaction?
In hindsight a bit of both. It has been a comment made to me by several people (non aviators mainly) when talking about the incident. It comes down to public perception - the majority of the population is law abiding and trusts the police. They look to the police for crime prevention advice and rely on them to prevent crime as far as possible.

As everyone else is using hypothetical scenarios to further their case: Would you take security advice from someone who was currently being burgled?

Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
Why is it so important to you to that others agree with you?
It isn't particularly. However, it's very frustrating when you make a point and it is countered with other irrelevant arguments, largely based on provoking an emotional response, and the point you are making goes unanswered.

Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
However, I wonder if perhaps you're allowing the experience you describe to cloud your judgment here.
Quite possibly, its hard for me to objective about my own opinions. However, insinuations have been made that in some way I am engaged in "Plod Bashing" or that I wish the denigrate the excellent work done by the ASU. This is not the case, or at least was not my intention. My concern / grievance is really with the poor security and risk assessment which led to a very expensive public asset being destroyed quite easily.

Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
Unfortunately, some police officers needlessly antagonise members of the public who would otherwise have continued to be staunch supporters.
Precisely. As you will find in most professions I believe. Which is why I have no contention with any single police officer, other than the two who needlessly (in my opinion) wasted my time. I am positive that the vast majority of officers set out with only good intentions and are competent individuals. Of course, I will remain polite to those I encounter as I would any other person, however the actions of the two I encountered have lowered my opinion of the police as a whole. One bad apple and all that...

Now, for those of you thinking that I may be back tracking you are partly right and this post is meant in a conciliatory tone. I may have been overly aggressive and not stated my case in a particularly concise manner initially; and my opinion has changed slightly as a result of this discussion (especially the point about Monarch). However, I retain the belief that in light of the high profile warnings about BHX security, the high profile nature of the ASU and the desire for "retribution" from those who rightly feel the force of the ASU that somebody at WMP has seriously underestimated the risk of this happening.
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Old 22nd Jun 2009, 07:47
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry to drag this one back up again, especially when it is a slightly off topic post!! However the latest on protecting your property!!

Police expert warns drivers not to hide car keys at home... to avoid violent confrontation with burglars | Mail Online
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Old 22nd Jun 2009, 13:19
  #197 (permalink)  
 
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Gee....guess what happens when the scrotes have the weapons and the law deprives the victim's of the right and ability to defend themselves.

Sounds like ya'll need to start killing these burglar fellers. Instead of a life sentence....how about a short drop on the end of a strong rope!
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Old 10th Oct 2009, 16:44
  #198 (permalink)  
 
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Merseyside Police Helicopter Attacked

Another attack that was repelled by the crew..... Nice one boys!!

Liverpool Echo.co.uk - News - Liverpool Local News - Police helicopter attacked at RAF Woodvale


Police helicopter attacked at RAF Woodvale

Oct 10 2009 By Mark Johnson
A POLICE helicopter was attacked at RAF Woodvale last night.
Just before 10.30pm several men gained entry to the military base where the Force helicopter is stored and damaged the aircraft.
A high speed police chase ensued from Southport to Liverpool city centre as a silver Audi A4 with blacked out windows was seen travelling at high speed along Formby Bypass with a number of people on board.
The car entered the Birkenhead tunnel and was abandoned by the passengers and driver.
At the same time a black Audi S8 left the tunnel at speed headed toward Liverpool city centre. The vehicle was pursued by officers up to Upper Parliament Street and crashed into a police vehicle on Upper Hampton Street.
The police vehicle caught fire as a result of the collision and an officer received slight injuries. Three men, aged 24, 25 and 26, from the vehicle were arrested at the scene. Officers on duty prevented a number of offenders from seriously
damaging the aircraft.
Other officers quickly arrived on the scene and the offenders left having caused slight damage to the helicopter. As a precautionary measure Merseyside Fire and Rescue attended the scene. No one was injured during the incident.
A Mitsubishi Shogun, believed to have been used by the offenders, was later found burnt out on Moore Lane, Altcar. Following this incident the Birkenhead tunnel was closed to allow an extensive search by officers.
Superintendent Jonathan Roy, said: "Officers from Merseyside Police have launched a far reaching investigation after the force helicopter was
targeted last night.
"The prompt response by police officers and aircrew and recently enhanced security measures prevented this from becoming a more serious incident.
"In addition outstanding action by all the officers involved resulted in the arrest of three men without injury to any member of the public.
"We are determined to bring all offenders involved in this matter to justice and investigators will leave no stone unturned in so doing.
"Members of the community we serve and members of the criminal fraternity should take note that highly effective air support was maintained throughout last night's operation and I must reassure you that the effective provision of air support to the county of Merseyside is still in
place and will be maintained."
All of the men arrested remain in custody at this time and enquiries are ongoing. The Queensway Tunnel remains closed whilst the abandoned vehicle is removed and the other abandoned vehicles have been recovered and are being forensically examined.
Officers are appealing for anyone with information to call Merseyside Police on 0151 709 6010 or Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111.
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Old 10th Oct 2009, 17:56
  #199 (permalink)  
 
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And yet another, this time on the Merseyside ASU EC135 at RAF Woodvale: Police pursue helicopter vandals.

At least it sounds like they got the scrotes this time round, despite the attempt at a Ronin-style getaway.

I/C

Police pursue helicopter vandals


Police believe the gang changed cars in the tunnel

Vandals who tried to destroy a police force helicopter were then pursued across Merseyside, resulting in a police car going up in flames.
The gang had managed to break into RAF Woodvale in Southport before fleeing in a Mitsubishi Shogun on Friday night.
Officers followed the offenders, who they think used at least three cars in the pursuit, which ended in Liverpool.
The police car caught fire after colliding with one of the cars the suspects were thought to have used.
Three men have been arrested.
A Merseyside Police spokesman said the first car involved in the chase from the airfield was a Mitsubishi Shogun, which was later found burnt out on Moore Lane, Altcar.
A short time later a silver Audi A4 with blacked out windows was seen travelling at high speed along Formby bypass with a number of people on board.
Officers tracked and pursued the vehicle from Southport to Liverpool city centre.
The car then entered the Queensway tunnel where it was abandoned.
At about the same time another vehicle, a black Audi S8, left the tunnel at speed in the direction of Liverpool city centre. Police believe the suspects changed vehicles in the tunnel.
The Audi was then pursued by officers to Upper Parliament Street. The two vehicles crashed in Upper Hampton Street, where the police car went up in flames and an officer suffered minor injuries.
Supt Jonathan Roy said: "Officers from Merseyside Police have launched a far-reaching investigation after the force helicopter was targeted on Friday night."
All of the men arrested remained in custody and police said enquiries were ongoing.
The Queensway Tunnel remaied closed while the abandoned vehicle was removed. The other abandoned vehicles have been recovered and are being forensically examined.
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Old 10th Oct 2009, 18:21
  #200 (permalink)  
 
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A fairly routine night in Merseyside then.
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