Another Attack On A Police Helicopter
Will recent events result in the beginning of the end of the Police Authorities' ridiculous dash to helicopter ownership and pilot employment?
Think about it - had WMP not decided to buy their own aircraft and employ the pilots, they would, within a very short time following the incident, have been back in the air in a machine provided by their contractor.
No wonder the UEOs of Wiltshire, Strathclyde and a few others sleep easier at night.......
Think about it - had WMP not decided to buy their own aircraft and employ the pilots, they would, within a very short time following the incident, have been back in the air in a machine provided by their contractor.
No wonder the UEOs of Wiltshire, Strathclyde and a few others sleep easier at night.......
Perhaps a phone call to the EMS operation in Saginaw, Michigan would help in finding a design for a hangar/trolley setup that works a treat.
The aircraft sat on a large rubber tired Trolley inside a hangar....when the call was issued...we stepped out of the accomodation....pilot climbed into the aircraft and strapped in....Paramedic hit the door switch and monitored the door....when it was clear of the aircraft.....he hit a second button that turned on the electric winch that ran the trolley out to the end of the track....as we passed under the doorway...he gave a thumbs up and hit the down button for the door...and the pilot fired up the beastie ....the Nurse was already strapped in and the ParaMedic did a quick walkaround and strapped in by the time the aircraft was at RPM.
Landing was easier....land on the trolley, shutdown, grab up the garage remote that handled the door and winch....and the aircraft was retrieved automatically. The winch was wired through the door and could not be operated unless the door was open.
I am told the only reason they did all that was because the Paramedic's were complaining about their hair getting mussed when it rained. The Nurse's did not seem to mind.
The aircraft sat on a large rubber tired Trolley inside a hangar....when the call was issued...we stepped out of the accomodation....pilot climbed into the aircraft and strapped in....Paramedic hit the door switch and monitored the door....when it was clear of the aircraft.....he hit a second button that turned on the electric winch that ran the trolley out to the end of the track....as we passed under the doorway...he gave a thumbs up and hit the down button for the door...and the pilot fired up the beastie ....the Nurse was already strapped in and the ParaMedic did a quick walkaround and strapped in by the time the aircraft was at RPM.
Landing was easier....land on the trolley, shutdown, grab up the garage remote that handled the door and winch....and the aircraft was retrieved automatically. The winch was wired through the door and could not be operated unless the door was open.
I am told the only reason they did all that was because the Paramedic's were complaining about their hair getting mussed when it rained. The Nurse's did not seem to mind.
Avoid imitations
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SASless....nice?
I blame the drink and rose tinted sunglasses on many posts here.
Well, that's me sorted - as for the rest?
I blame the drink and rose tinted sunglasses on many posts here.
Well, that's me sorted - as for the rest?
Thread Starter
have been back in the air in a machine provided by their contractor.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Well if no-one has a solution to the nightwatchman v villain scenario lets have a solution to Double Bogey.
Whats the big thing about a trolley, when there's HeliLift!
I agree with the word Bollocks, in that what you say is total bollocks. You want the ac in a locked hangar! So how long is it going to take to unlock hangar, open doors, pull ac out and going along the idea of the ac being on this trolley, secure it by wheel locks/pillars? ..... 'king ages!
The idea of the pilot climbing in and doing the pre starts while the ac is being pulled out, fits straight into the fantasy world you seem to be living in, for 2 immediate reasons. 1 - H&S in climbing up onto an unstable platform and 2 - who is going to watch the hangar door to ensure the blades are clear?
Can someone from one of those units tell us please the time it takes to do this? And how the risk assessment scores it!
If the weather is so bad that the ac needs to be in the hangar, why is it being launched?
Not most, but for example when I left work this evening we were sorting out 2 mutual aid tasks for just that very thing.
Nice if you know where the jobs are going to be 
Upset because you were not admitted as you didn't have the correct ID...and you complain about the clear lack of security at BHX. 
Does it make a difference that the civ fw pilot is how you describe, a middle eastern gentleman? Maybe in your day, but these days things are different.
Besides, by adding 'gentleman' doesn't hide your racist inclinations!
So ,if you are saying that, why say things like;
Or is that more of your back pedalling humour?
Stop flippin whinging and get the helicopters properly secured in a hangar on a trolley.
As for it adding 2 complete minutes to launch. (Bollocks). If the hangar is in the right place, the trolley is suitable, the plod drive it out whilst the spotty pilot does the pre-start, all climb in, fire up the coal burners and OFF to catch scrotes.
The idea of the pilot climbing in and doing the pre starts while the ac is being pulled out, fits straight into the fantasy world you seem to be living in, for 2 immediate reasons. 1 - H&S in climbing up onto an unstable platform and 2 - who is going to watch the hangar door to ensure the blades are clear?
And if you think this is unworkable, you better tell WYPA, NAAS, NEASU as they have been doing it like that for years (granted normally when the WX makes them keep it indoors).
If the weather is so bad that the ac needs to be in the hangar, why is it being launched?
Anyway, I hear these days that most ASU flights are launched looking for confused Grannies in their nightdress....or is that a gross exageration.
At some ASUs we would routinley pre-position the machnie and crew to an HLS close to where the action might be, spend a few hours loitering and waiting for a job. Crew sat in and gaurding the helicopter.
I also recall arriving at WM security post to start duty dressed in my Police flight suit, brandishing a security pass from another BAA airport and with my license to be told I could not enter without an escort. Whilst waiting for said escort a civilian FW pilot arrived (middle eastern gentleman) who was granted immediete unescorted access on the strength of his flight crew license.
Does it make a difference that the civ fw pilot is how you describe, a middle eastern gentleman? Maybe in your day, but these days things are different.
Besides, by adding 'gentleman' doesn't hide your racist inclinations!
I would not suggest that the police guard the helicopter.
Reading through this thread all that comes to mind is the classic "Plod" tactic of refusing to accept any responsibility for the incident.
Far too easy to sit 150m away drinking coffee and reading "NutS" mag than to actually guard the helicopter.
The facts look pretty obvious to me:
Plod drinking coffee/watching vids while scrote cuts through fence, sets fire to helicopter and makes good his escape!!!!
Far too easy to sit 150m away drinking coffee and reading "NutS" mag than to actually guard the helicopter.
The facts look pretty obvious to me:
Plod drinking coffee/watching vids while scrote cuts through fence, sets fire to helicopter and makes good his escape!!!!
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 12th Jun 2009 at 23:21. Reason: Realising times have changed, humour is age group related and something else I didn't think relevant here!
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Nothing new!!
In 1988 I remember doing a Late mail flight out of Liverpool and Whilst doing my pre-flight at about 00:45am, a large car literally crashed through the airport gate and drove over to the As355 (i think) parked on the apron, whereupon its passengers began throwing petrol bombs at it 
and then screeched off into the night. This helicopter amazingly received only scorching!! (we were onto it quickly with extinguishers)
Obviously the newly arrived machine was causing the scumbags too much trouble and they decided to take direct action. (looked like a scene from the sweeney)
and then screeched off into the night. This helicopter amazingly received only scorching!! (we were onto it quickly with extinguishers)Obviously the newly arrived machine was causing the scumbags too much trouble and they decided to take direct action. (looked like a scene from the sweeney)
Last edited by Heli-phile; 13th Jun 2009 at 00:39. Reason: typo correction
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Update to last
Lets look at this event in a lateral manner and start with this question
Why was this machine based at the airport in the 1st place? Its a helicopter??, why suffer/cause the delays, grief and annoyance of having to operate out of the most congested part of the entire airspace. This and other units should be based in secure remote compounds. If noise is a problem put the compound somewhere away from residences.
It is a mobile airborne assett and yet people still think in 'fixed wing' 2 dimensional mind sets.
Work backwards:
1 -Get a multi million pound SPIFR/A cat/Flir equiped State of the art piece of machineary
2 - put said Helicopter onto a large flat trolley
3 - Build a hangar and put said helicopter/trolley into Hangar
4 - Put Hangar into a secure compound (no runway/international terminal/ATC tower/multistorey carparks etc needed)
5 - Dig a big moat around said compound and fill it with water
6 - fit a drawbridge.
Right - unless the scroats launch mortars or rappel into the compound, it should all be good.
Seriously, Give me 1 years premium on this machine and I will set up a scroat proof , neighbour friendly, bespoke base.
I think up until now its not been a lack of security thats the problem, its just a lack of imagination!!
If our Ancestors could keep heavily armed armies out of our castles for months on end, I think we can manage to keep some scroats away from a helicopter for a few minutes until the cavalry arrive!!!!!!
I welcome PM's from interested Constabularys who want to discuss further!!
Why was this machine based at the airport in the 1st place? Its a helicopter??, why suffer/cause the delays, grief and annoyance of having to operate out of the most congested part of the entire airspace. This and other units should be based in secure remote compounds. If noise is a problem put the compound somewhere away from residences.
It is a mobile airborne assett and yet people still think in 'fixed wing' 2 dimensional mind sets.
Work backwards:
1 -Get a multi million pound SPIFR/A cat/Flir equiped State of the art piece of machineary
2 - put said Helicopter onto a large flat trolley
3 - Build a hangar and put said helicopter/trolley into Hangar
4 - Put Hangar into a secure compound (no runway/international terminal/ATC tower/multistorey carparks etc needed)
5 - Dig a big moat around said compound and fill it with water
6 - fit a drawbridge.
Right - unless the scroats launch mortars or rappel into the compound, it should all be good.
Seriously, Give me 1 years premium on this machine and I will set up a scroat proof , neighbour friendly, bespoke base.
I think up until now its not been a lack of security thats the problem, its just a lack of imagination!!
If our Ancestors could keep heavily armed armies out of our castles for months on end, I think we can manage to keep some scroats away from a helicopter for a few minutes until the cavalry arrive!!!!!!
I welcome PM's from interested Constabularys who want to discuss further!!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
The problem with building such a secure compound, is that if you make it so difficult to take out the aircraft when it is on the ground, it will simply be taken out when it is in the air.
When it is in the air it is occupied!
End of!
When it is in the air it is occupied!
End of!
Heli-Phile,
Unless the scotes happen to be named Norman perhaps!
Unless the scotes happen to be named Norman perhaps!
QTG!
The reason Police Authorities and Chief officers buy aircraft rather than lease them is that they get at least 40% HO grant towards the purchase of the primary asset. Importantly, at the end of any typical 10 year period they, (the owners), have a very significant capital asset. Had they a leased, they would have nothing. - Nevertheless, the lessor would have made a very nice profit thank you, and also had the aircraft to sell or lease to another operator.
Direct purchase has to be better for the tax payer. Even taking into consideration these recent blips. Just look at the record over the past 25 years, I think that direct ownership has proved itself time & time again.
UK Police aviation has consistantly proved itself to be a leader in its field; so lets not knock it. I would submit that if only half as much time as is given to condeming units for poor security, as was given to catching the scroats responsible, it would be Job well Done!
But going back to the oricginal thread, - why was it done? Well that just goes to prove how effective the concept of Police Air Support is, - someone was finding the ever overhead presence of airborne plod, just too restricting.
Tigerfish
The reason Police Authorities and Chief officers buy aircraft rather than lease them is that they get at least 40% HO grant towards the purchase of the primary asset. Importantly, at the end of any typical 10 year period they, (the owners), have a very significant capital asset. Had they a leased, they would have nothing. - Nevertheless, the lessor would have made a very nice profit thank you, and also had the aircraft to sell or lease to another operator.
Direct purchase has to be better for the tax payer. Even taking into consideration these recent blips. Just look at the record over the past 25 years, I think that direct ownership has proved itself time & time again.
UK Police aviation has consistantly proved itself to be a leader in its field; so lets not knock it. I would submit that if only half as much time as is given to condeming units for poor security, as was given to catching the scroats responsible, it would be Job well Done!
But going back to the oricginal thread, - why was it done? Well that just goes to prove how effective the concept of Police Air Support is, - someone was finding the ever overhead presence of airborne plod, just too restricting.
Tigerfish
Last edited by tigerfish; 14th Jun 2009 at 00:09.
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DOUBLE BOGEY
Was it you that got sacked from Northumbria Air Ambulance as well?
I got sacked from floating at WM by Mel Mason (Inspector) for speaking to Eurocopter about a strange snag on the Flying Controls of the helicopter.
I eventually settled at Northumbria Air Ambulance for 3 years before coming back to the North Sea....
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Hey there,
First of all my commiserations (sp?) to the WM Police for the loss of their valuable asset. As a Polair driver myself, I have often wondered about the security of the beast parked on the hardstanding and long ago came to the conclusion that if someone wants to take it out, then they will. No fence (outside of the sandpit) will keep a determined baddie out.
For all those chaps out there berating the poor plod for not defending the aircraft to their last breath (into the valley of death flew the brave 3), I am not going to risk my life for an asset (that is presumably insured) and don't expect any of the crew to sit out in the weather guarding it 24/7. You could maybe set up a security company for the job but in my experience, the guard would arrive in his wheelchair well after the event.
The whole idea of the Police chopper is quick response, so short of building an elaborate launcing system such as SASless described (I don't want whats left of my hair mussed either), this means that it is going to be outside.
Aviation wise, an international airport is probably one of the safest around. Imagine doing a Risk Assessment and coming up with something that has the airport being unsafe - the Govt would have a heart attack. That they managed to cut their way in goes to show that nothing is perfect and hopefully they have learnt from their mistakes.
With regards to operating from a compound, I believe (but are willing to be corrected) that the Police must operate Cat A everywhere so not having a larger pad for Cat A will severely restrict its fuel load. Again, a big airfield is good and as long as the ATC are helpful, it is the best solution. Security, size and has all the infrastructure (fuel, specialist maintainers etc).
In conclusion to all you hardasses out there, sh*t happens and if this can happen to this helo, then it can happen anywhere with a determined foe.
Again, hope the WM get a quick fix helo and get into the air to get stuck into these offenders. You must be good to p*ss them off this much.
First of all my commiserations (sp?) to the WM Police for the loss of their valuable asset. As a Polair driver myself, I have often wondered about the security of the beast parked on the hardstanding and long ago came to the conclusion that if someone wants to take it out, then they will. No fence (outside of the sandpit) will keep a determined baddie out.
For all those chaps out there berating the poor plod for not defending the aircraft to their last breath (into the valley of death flew the brave 3), I am not going to risk my life for an asset (that is presumably insured) and don't expect any of the crew to sit out in the weather guarding it 24/7. You could maybe set up a security company for the job but in my experience, the guard would arrive in his wheelchair well after the event.
The whole idea of the Police chopper is quick response, so short of building an elaborate launcing system such as SASless described (I don't want whats left of my hair mussed either), this means that it is going to be outside.
Aviation wise, an international airport is probably one of the safest around. Imagine doing a Risk Assessment and coming up with something that has the airport being unsafe - the Govt would have a heart attack. That they managed to cut their way in goes to show that nothing is perfect and hopefully they have learnt from their mistakes.
With regards to operating from a compound, I believe (but are willing to be corrected) that the Police must operate Cat A everywhere so not having a larger pad for Cat A will severely restrict its fuel load. Again, a big airfield is good and as long as the ATC are helpful, it is the best solution. Security, size and has all the infrastructure (fuel, specialist maintainers etc).
In conclusion to all you hardasses out there, sh*t happens and if this can happen to this helo, then it can happen anywhere with a determined foe.
Again, hope the WM get a quick fix helo and get into the air to get stuck into these offenders. You must be good to p*ss them off this much.
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Originally Posted by volrider
Sunnywa , excellent post that encapsulates everything perfectly, sadly other plod bashers here seem to have a severe lacking in your common sense approach
Now we get down to it. I think everyone will agree, that for a multitude of reasons the security wasn't right, or not as good as it could have been; and am positive everyone will be happy no-one got hurt.
... but it seems we can't say anything bad about the police. Well, for the purpose of coming clean, I have a grudge to bear against WMP. I was brought up to respect the police; but in my adult life they have done nothing to warrant continued respect and in fact have done a lot to destroy the respect. I'll keep this brief.
I was stopped on a major road in Coventry as my car had flagged up as "non existent" (IE: no tax, insurance) on an ANPR check. The officers were very rude and treated me like a criminal, the presumption of innocence is obviously alive within WMP. When I sat in the back of the car, it transpired the ANPR had mis-read my number plate - it ends in BNN they had BNM. However, rather than admit their mistake I was stopped from going about my business for nearly 40 minutes while they accused me of driving a stolen car, and checked the VIN on the chassis, checked my insurance with insurance co, checked me on PNC etc... they just wanted to get something on me rather than admit to a mistake which wasn't even of their own making - technology can fail. In the end they let me go, but no sign of an apology. I complained, and got a turse written apology. Simple politeness would have gone a long way from WMP. I'll add I was polite and courteous at all times and not even slightly irate until the end when they wouldn't even apologise. So no bashing the police - they don't like it.
They do have a 'Thankless" job....we complain when we have them intervene in our normal lives....and cuss them when they are not around when we want them to intervene. Add insult to injury when they tell you they are not coming out because your criminal harm does not warrant an official visit or action...but they sure seem to have the time to make your life miserable if they seek you out first.
We can all tell stories of misconduct, rudeness, or sloth.....but then poor old Plod himself has a tote bag full of complaints about how he gets treated.
We have to remember they are the Long Blue Line that tries to keep the thugs beat down so the rest of us can go about our business.
They make mistakes.....and it is acceptable to point them out...and not be guilty of Plod Bashing.
Heli-Craig,
How would you like to deal with this Cop?
Remember the whole time there was a patient inside the Ambulance!
STATter 911: UPDATED - MUST SEE VIDEO: Full dash cam video now released by OHP. Prosecutor calls Trooper Daniel Martin's actions "inappropriate from the outset".
We can all tell stories of misconduct, rudeness, or sloth.....but then poor old Plod himself has a tote bag full of complaints about how he gets treated.
We have to remember they are the Long Blue Line that tries to keep the thugs beat down so the rest of us can go about our business.
They make mistakes.....and it is acceptable to point them out...and not be guilty of Plod Bashing.
Heli-Craig,
How would you like to deal with this Cop?
Remember the whole time there was a patient inside the Ambulance!
STATter 911: UPDATED - MUST SEE VIDEO: Full dash cam video now released by OHP. Prosecutor calls Trooper Daniel Martin's actions "inappropriate from the outset".
Last edited by SASless; 14th Jun 2009 at 13:36.
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SAS, we all make mistakes - we are human; its what we do when we realise that we have that sets people apart.
In my case the officer should have realised the mistake, it was obvious & not even his mistake, checked the correct number plate in ANPR, found nothing wrong, apologised and moved on. I would have even been happy, as it would have meant that not only were they trying their hardest to catch the undesirables, but that they were human too!!
It just seems that you can't question the police these days, and too many of the individual officers have forgotten that not everyone is a criminal!
As for your EMS -vs OHP stuff.... well, lost for words and don't want to get too much thread creep. Looks like a charge of assault to me, but like everyone else he has the right to have his case investigated and be tried by a jury if charges are brought.
In my case the officer should have realised the mistake, it was obvious & not even his mistake, checked the correct number plate in ANPR, found nothing wrong, apologised and moved on. I would have even been happy, as it would have meant that not only were they trying their hardest to catch the undesirables, but that they were human too!!
It just seems that you can't question the police these days, and too many of the individual officers have forgotten that not everyone is a criminal!
As for your EMS -vs OHP stuff.... well, lost for words and don't want to get too much thread creep. Looks like a charge of assault to me, but like everyone else he has the right to have his case investigated and be tried by a jury if charges are brought.
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I am only a contractor who flies for the police. However, since when can't you criticise them?? Just because I disagree with comments in this case doesn't mean I won't have a go at them when it is deserved. There are some people on Pprune who will have a go whenever they can, when they are corrected, they claim that the police will never take criticism.
I stand by my statement..... If you pay for security at an international airport, you expect this NOT to happen. Fairoaks is a different story, the security SHOULD have been better but the system was to blame, not the individual crew. You are not expecting or fully equipped to deal with weapon carrying criminals. If they need to sit with body armour/taser/CS all at the ready then lets give them the kit or up the local manning levels to support the requirement. I would not want to face petrol bombs and axes armed with a set of Flight reference Cards and a chinagraph!! Our crew leaves the site, short term, to carry out admin tasks/fuel management, leaving me manning the pumps. I do not get paid to face weapons. So please cut some slack for the individual crews involved. Criticise the management by all means, but remember they are under intense financial pressure.
PS. You will get my full support for having a go when real mistakes are made.
I stand by my statement..... If you pay for security at an international airport, you expect this NOT to happen. Fairoaks is a different story, the security SHOULD have been better but the system was to blame, not the individual crew. You are not expecting or fully equipped to deal with weapon carrying criminals. If they need to sit with body armour/taser/CS all at the ready then lets give them the kit or up the local manning levels to support the requirement. I would not want to face petrol bombs and axes armed with a set of Flight reference Cards and a chinagraph!! Our crew leaves the site, short term, to carry out admin tasks/fuel management, leaving me manning the pumps. I do not get paid to face weapons. So please cut some slack for the individual crews involved. Criticise the management by all means, but remember they are under intense financial pressure.
PS. You will get my full support for having a go when real mistakes are made.
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Jay,
I have repeatedly said throughout my posts that there is no criticism, implicit or direct, of the actual people on the ground that evening. None whatsoever, and from what I have been told there is nothing they could have done in any case. So I have plenty of slack for those concerned.
My criticism's were entirely leveled at the force as a whole for, in my opinion, relying too heavily on the "its a major intl airport" argument with regard to security. The security at BHX has been subject of public derision in the past (reported here), so WMP can have (again in my opinion) no excuse save for complacency as the attack itself doesn't appear to be particular sophisticated (well planned, yes).
Of course, as others have elluded to - perhaps, on a commercial / financial basis its cheaper to get insurance who are happy with the risk and accept the occasional loss. Unfortunately the insurance won't help with public perception! As I have also said earlier, the interesting thing will be what if any improvements are made at BHX as a result of this and insurance demands...
I have repeatedly said throughout my posts that there is no criticism, implicit or direct, of the actual people on the ground that evening. None whatsoever, and from what I have been told there is nothing they could have done in any case. So I have plenty of slack for those concerned.
My criticism's were entirely leveled at the force as a whole for, in my opinion, relying too heavily on the "its a major intl airport" argument with regard to security. The security at BHX has been subject of public derision in the past (reported here), so WMP can have (again in my opinion) no excuse save for complacency as the attack itself doesn't appear to be particular sophisticated (well planned, yes).
Of course, as others have elluded to - perhaps, on a commercial / financial basis its cheaper to get insurance who are happy with the risk and accept the occasional loss. Unfortunately the insurance won't help with public perception! As I have also said earlier, the interesting thing will be what if any improvements are made at BHX as a result of this and insurance demands...