Another Attack On A Police Helicopter
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Helicraig,
So we can take it then that all your posts here have been written with venom. Making the most of this to get back at WMP and not looking at the bigger issues. I don't think you have slightly condemned the person(s) who did this, but rather concentrate on having a go at WMP. As I said before, it seems that some here are treating them as heroes.
Apart from when you said; "They were incapable of protecting there own aircraft, that much is fact, it was in their charge and it got set fire to."
If BHX says security is within guidelines, then I guess none!
Well, for the purpose of coming clean, I have a grudge to bear against WMP.
I have repeatedly said throughout my posts that there is no criticism, implicit or direct, of the actual people on the ground that evening. None whatsoever, and from what I have been told there is nothing they could have done in any case.
As I have also said earlier, the interesting thing will be what if any improvements are made at BHX as a result of this
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Helicraig,
After all you have said on this thread, do you still agree with what you said earlier?
After all you have said on this thread, do you still agree with what you said earlier?
In many ways this would be much more forgivable if it were a smaller airfield in a smaller police force...
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So we can take it then that all your posts here have been written with venom. Making the most of this to get back at WMP and not looking at the bigger issues. I don't think you have slightly condemned the person(s) who did this, but rather concentrate on having a go at WMP. As I said before, it seems that some here are treating them as heroes.
I think I have pointed to the bigger of issue of poor security at a major intl airport several times in fact. That and the fact that WMP failed to assess it as such despite previous high profile warnings. So yes, if thats having a go at WMP then so be it.
And no, perhaps I haven't directly condemned them - but for the record they are quite clearly low lives of the highest form and I hope the book is thrown at them.
Will you be so kind as to admit that security isn't what it ought to be if someone can break into a major intl airport and torch an a/c? You haven't done that yet Sid, but have trumped up scenarios involving kniving people's wives - fear is a tactic too often used by the authorities these days!!
Apart from when you said; "They were incapable of protecting there own aircraft, that much is fact, it was in their charge and it got set fire to."
After all you have said on this thread, do you still agree with what you said earlier?
As for being policed by a smaller force, yes also more forgiveable but to a lesser extent. Warwickshire, for instance, only have 1,000 police officers (or thereabouts) and have a large area to police with much more limited resources and far less aviation experience. Looking at latest accounts from the Police Authorities concerned, Warwickshire had a net operating expenditure of £124m, WMP £781 - so I don't think you can expect the same results. (Yes, I know there are many other factors, size, population etc but this makes a simple point). So yes, peoples expectation of the performance of WMP is higher...
At some point will you admit that perhaps someone, somewhere in WMP made a mistake here?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Will you be so kind as to admit that security isn't what it ought to be if someone can break into a major intl airport and torch an a/c? You haven't done that yet Sid
I have also said - "Go on HC, simply say what protection should have been in force!" and despite directly being asked your opinion, you still haven't told us what else you think should have been in force.
Like the Saudi Royal Air Force and the MoD/RAF and anyone else who park their aircraft over the Elmdon side, we all thought it more secure than it actually was/is.
Quote:
Apart from when you said; "They were incapable of protecting there own aircraft, that much is fact, it was in their charge and it got set fire to."
Yes... they as in WMP. Not They as in you and your colleagues.
Apart from when you said; "They were incapable of protecting there own aircraft, that much is fact, it was in their charge and it got set fire to."
Yes... they as in WMP. Not They as in you and your colleagues.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
At some point will you admit that perhaps someone, somewhere in WMP made a mistake here?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
HeliCraig,
Are you saying that if the Warwickshire Helicopter had been done in, it would have been ok?
By quoting all those figures from Warwickshire
It clearly shows your total ignorance of Police Air Support in your region.
As a Warwickshire tax payer (assumed from your profile location)
HeliCraig
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and a keen helicopter-eer I would have thought that you would know a bit more about the Police Air Support you pay for.
Are you saying that if the Warwickshire Helicopter had been done in, it would have been ok?
By quoting all those figures from Warwickshire
As for being policed by a smaller force, yes also more forgiveable but to a lesser extent. Warwickshire, for instance, only have 1,000 police officers (or thereabouts) and have a large area to police with much more limited resources and far less aviation experience. Looking at latest accounts from the Police Authorities concerned, Warwickshire had a net operating expenditure of £124m, WMP £781 - so I don't think you can expect the same results. (Yes, I know there are many other factors, size, population etc but this makes a simple point). So yes, peoples expectation of the performance of WMP is higher...
As a Warwickshire tax payer (assumed from your profile location)
HeliCraig
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and a keen helicopter-eer I would have thought that you would know a bit more about the Police Air Support you pay for.
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Originally Posted by SiloeSid
I have also said - "Go on HC, simply say what protection should have been in force!" and despite directly being asked your opinion, you still haven't told us what else you think should have been in force
Originally Posted by HeliCraig
In the same way you plan for any other unexpected incidence. You take worst case and plan around it. However, I have worked in a clothes warehouse with, by the looks of it, a better fence. An alarm would go if it was cut, touched or inteferred with. That was for a warehouse full of jeans... and I saw it at work one night, and Warwickshire police felt a few collars as a result. Surely BHX should have similar?
Originally Posted by HeliCraig
I have also said previously that I have worked in a warehouse which provided an instant alert if the fence was so much as touched. Looking at the size of the hole cut in the fence at BHX, I think its a fair bet that this would have provided either airport security or WMP sufficient time to go and investigate the fence panel reporting a tamper, or at least get them in the area and perhaps limit the damage by reducing time taken to get the AFRS on scene. I would add that this warehouse belonged to a large American company, and the contents... jeans. So I think it is a reasonable expectation that the 6th biggest airport in the UK had something more advanced than a simple wire mesh fence
Originally Posted by SiloeSid
A classic back pedal when caught out !
Originally Posted by HeliCraig
To be clear, by "they" I mean the police force as a whole and certainly not any individuals, as I have stated previously.
Originally Posted by SiloeSid
we all thought it more secure than it actually was/is.
Originally Posted by SiloeSid
Will you tell me who is responsible for security at BHX!
Oh, and going back to this...
Originally Posted by SiloeSid
So we can take it then that all your posts here have been written with venom.
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Originally Posted by SiloeSid
Are you saying that if the Warwickshire Helicopter had been done in, it would have been ok?
By quoting all those figures from Warwickshire it clearly shows your total ignorance of Police Air Support in your region.
As a Warwickshire tax payer (assumed from your profile location) and a keen helicopter-eer I would have thought that you would know a bit more about the Police Air Support you pay for.
By quoting all those figures from Warwickshire it clearly shows your total ignorance of Police Air Support in your region.
As a Warwickshire tax payer (assumed from your profile location) and a keen helicopter-eer I would have thought that you would know a bit more about the Police Air Support you pay for.
The point I was trying to make is that people have a much higher expectation of WMP and BHX because of their relative size and importance. It would still be embarrassing for EMASU to loose their aircraft though - mind you, they don't have BHX to blame / hide behind.
Perhaps this is the crux of the problem for UK Police Air Units....
The Bad Guys are armed.....the Police not!
The counter argument is if the Police are armed....the criminals will arrive better armed....I guess.
Remington 870 Shotguns with 00 Buckshot and Large Caliber Pistols work a treat on axe and petrol bomb wielding criminals...they will lay right down and wait for the handcuffs and rights warning after getting dusted with the buckshot.
You are not expecting or fully equipped to deal with weapon carrying criminals. If they need to sit with body armour/taser/CS all at the ready then lets give them the kit or up the local manning levels to support the requirement. I would not want to face petrol bombs and axes armed with a set of Flight reference Cards and a chinagraph!!
The counter argument is if the Police are armed....the criminals will arrive better armed....I guess.
Remington 870 Shotguns with 00 Buckshot and Large Caliber Pistols work a treat on axe and petrol bomb wielding criminals...they will lay right down and wait for the handcuffs and rights warning after getting dusted with the buckshot.
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HeliCraig,
Sorry I missed the repeat of the jeans factory alarm, it was mixed in the middle of a larger post.
Ok, so you are saying an alarmed fence.
As long as the foxes/badgers/hares didn't set off enough false alarms over the years since installation.
Jeans factory concrete/tarmac
Airfield....field !
Sorry I missed the repeat of the jeans factory alarm, it was mixed in the middle of a larger post.
Ok, so you are saying an alarmed fence.
As long as the foxes/badgers/hares didn't set off enough false alarms over the years since installation.
Jeans factory concrete/tarmac
Airfield....field !
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Vandalism? Arson? Terrorism!
IMHO the officers (and contractors) crewing these aircraft should be trained, suffiiciently armed and authorised to use deadly force to protect their aircraft.
Perhaps my Southern African past colours my attitude but what has it come to when UK police helicopters are destroyed on the ground by criminals. This is not vandalism, it is terrorism.
Perhaps my Southern African past colours my attitude but what has it come to when UK police helicopters are destroyed on the ground by criminals. This is not vandalism, it is terrorism.
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Can you tell me who is responsible for crime prevention / detection / public security at BHX?
etc
We both know that the warwickshire heli can't be done in, because it doesn't exist.
I don't think you are particularly anti WMP, but Police in general. Just handy for you it was the same forces helicopter that the traffic bods belonged to!
Can we assume that all your posts are written with the rose tinted, WMP can do no wrong, specs provided with every pay packet?? You're only really proving my point that it WMP believe they can do no wrong, and refuse to admit when mistakes have been made!
And do you really expect us to believe your anti WMP story earlier, that you were polite and courteous at all times.
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Perhaps my Southern African past colours my attitude but what has it come to when UK police helicopters are destroyed on the ground by criminals.
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Originally Posted by SiloeSid
Sorry I missed the repeat of the jeans factory alarm, it was mixed in the middle of a larger post.
Originally Posted by SiloeSid
Ok, so you are saying an alarmed fence. As long as the foxes/badgers/hares didn't set off enough false alarms over the years since installation. Jeans factory concrete/tarmac. Airfield....field !
Originally Posted by SiloeSid
TRANSEC Annual report 2007-08
etc
etc
Originally Posted by SiloeSid
And if any other Police Helicopter was done in, you would still say that Xxxxxshire Police should be able to protect their most valuable vehicle and have a dig, just as you are now.
I don't think you are particularly anti WMP, but Police in general. Just handy for you it was the same forces helicopter that the traffic bods belonged to!
I don't think you are particularly anti WMP, but Police in general. Just handy for you it was the same forces helicopter that the traffic bods belonged to!
Originally Posted by SiloeSid
Afraid my posts are written with glasses that see all sides and not just from one, bitter side.
Originally Posted by SiloeSid
And do you really expect us to believe your anti WMP story earlier, that you were polite and courteous at all times.
I was short with them by the end of the encounter, but certainly not rude.
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So, a veiled attempt at deflecting the fact that WMP are responsible for crime & disorder around BHX?
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So Helicraig, I park my new car in a secure carpark that states it has aprivate security firm that does regular patrols etc, it gets torched and I sit and think "Oh well its my fault".... Yeah Ok...I wonder if you had not had a bad experience with the police would you still argue the point so much?
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Moral relativism
Have just finished reading all the posts on this thread and what comes through is that some people have a "beef" with the police.
To anyone who has a beef, I ask you this? What has a personal grievance got to do with the destruction of this helicopter? Surely if one is living in the West Midlands, the first thought that should come to mind is that these scum have burned "your" helicopter. You pay for it! It is part of your community. It protects you and your family. It deters crime against you and yours. It might just save somebody's life one day. God forbid that that life may be yours!
What will you tolerate? Should criminals be allowed to burn your local police station, because you have had a run in with the police and feel hard done by (rightly or wrongly)?
Would you feel any worse if these low life had burned down your local library, your town hall, your house?
Wake up people, such thinking is the slippery slope to hell.
Rant over.
To anyone who has a beef, I ask you this? What has a personal grievance got to do with the destruction of this helicopter? Surely if one is living in the West Midlands, the first thought that should come to mind is that these scum have burned "your" helicopter. You pay for it! It is part of your community. It protects you and your family. It deters crime against you and yours. It might just save somebody's life one day. God forbid that that life may be yours!
What will you tolerate? Should criminals be allowed to burn your local police station, because you have had a run in with the police and feel hard done by (rightly or wrongly)?
Would you feel any worse if these low life had burned down your local library, your town hall, your house?
Wake up people, such thinking is the slippery slope to hell.
Rant over.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
I would like to remind the followers of their Robin Hooded Heroes that the Police Helicopter doesn't just catch people trying burgle your house, rape your mother/daughter or steal your car. Nor is it confined to catching those that will ultimately lead your children into a life of drugs hell or simply leave them in a pool of blood for simply looking at them the wrong way.
Have you even considered that during this time of year, not only at night, but also in the early morning hours and late evenings, the Police Helicopter is all there is.
Of course the Police Helicopter is always available 24/7 for life saving flights if needed, anywhere in the region in addition to the Air Ambulances if the numbers of casualties require it. Don't forget Air Ambulances can go u/s sometimes and incidents can have multiple life threatening injuries!
Need we mention the missing children, elderly and ill, or indeed any other circumstance where the skills of the crew and versatility of a helicopter is able to save life!
I hope the finger waggers here (if the cap fits) are now happy and feeling safer in their smug little world now they don't have the 24/7 out of hours cover.
Remember that on the way into work in the morning or when going out in the evening, and then again on the way back home when it's dark!
TaTa
Have you even considered that during this time of year, not only at night, but also in the early morning hours and late evenings, the Police Helicopter is all there is.
Of course the Police Helicopter is always available 24/7 for life saving flights if needed, anywhere in the region in addition to the Air Ambulances if the numbers of casualties require it. Don't forget Air Ambulances can go u/s sometimes and incidents can have multiple life threatening injuries!
Need we mention the missing children, elderly and ill, or indeed any other circumstance where the skills of the crew and versatility of a helicopter is able to save life!
I hope the finger waggers here (if the cap fits) are now happy and feeling safer in their smug little world now they don't have the 24/7 out of hours cover.
Remember that on the way into work in the morning or when going out in the evening, and then again on the way back home when it's dark!
TaTa
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Moral relativism
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Have just finished reading all the posts on this thread and what comes through is that some people have a "beef" with the police.
To anyone who has a beef, I ask you this? What has a personal grievance got to do with the destruction of this helicopter? Surely if one is living in the West Midlands, the first thought that should come to mind is that these scum have burned "your" helicopter. You pay for it! It is part of your community. It protects you and your family. It deters crime against you and yours. It might just save somebody's life one day. God forbid that that life may be yours!
What will you tolerate? Should criminals be allowed to burn your local police station, because you have had a run in with the police and feel hard done by (rightly or wrongly)?
Would you feel any worse if these low life had burned down your local library, your town hall, your house?
Wake up people, such thinking is the slippery slope to hell.
Rant over.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have just finished reading all the posts on this thread and what comes through is that some people have a "beef" with the police.
To anyone who has a beef, I ask you this? What has a personal grievance got to do with the destruction of this helicopter? Surely if one is living in the West Midlands, the first thought that should come to mind is that these scum have burned "your" helicopter. You pay for it! It is part of your community. It protects you and your family. It deters crime against you and yours. It might just save somebody's life one day. God forbid that that life may be yours!
What will you tolerate? Should criminals be allowed to burn your local police station, because you have had a run in with the police and feel hard done by (rightly or wrongly)?
Would you feel any worse if these low life had burned down your local library, your town hall, your house?
Wake up people, such thinking is the slippery slope to hell.
Rant over.
“We both know that the warwickshire heli can't be done in, because it doesn't exist. I think I have a reasonable knowledge of ASU's”.
Sorry to break up the Sid and Craig show but your knowledge of ASU’s isn’t as good as you think. The Warwickshire heli does exist and lives in the same hangar as the Leicestershire and Northamptonshire heli.
Sorry to break up the Sid and Craig show but your knowledge of ASU’s isn’t as good as you think. The Warwickshire heli does exist and lives in the same hangar as the Leicestershire and Northamptonshire heli.