SARH to go
Sirsoky - it is quite clear you don't know much about helicopter rescues, winchmen or paramedics.
Looking at CG SAR in the UK shows a regime being run for profit not capability, hence the 'innovative' idea to cut costs by creating winchmen on the cheap.
Both the remaining bidders know that there will be a shortage of rearcrew post 2012 and that they will have to pay decent wages to get the military guys to jump ship. One of the bidders seems to accept this is a price worth paying, the other is trying to create winchmen through a different route, ie taking paramedics and giving them a quick course on helicopters.
Talk to any SAR crew and see if they think this is a good idea - they won't for all the reasons lost horizon states.
My mention of R22 pilots with CPLs is to try and highlight the futility of trying to short-cut experience and training.
Vie - sadly it is exactly what we can expect because it is already being done by the present contractors.
Looking at CG SAR in the UK shows a regime being run for profit not capability, hence the 'innovative' idea to cut costs by creating winchmen on the cheap.
Both the remaining bidders know that there will be a shortage of rearcrew post 2012 and that they will have to pay decent wages to get the military guys to jump ship. One of the bidders seems to accept this is a price worth paying, the other is trying to create winchmen through a different route, ie taking paramedics and giving them a quick course on helicopters.
Talk to any SAR crew and see if they think this is a good idea - they won't for all the reasons lost horizon states.
My mention of R22 pilots with CPLs is to try and highlight the futility of trying to short-cut experience and training.
Vie - sadly it is exactly what we can expect because it is already being done by the present contractors.
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What to Expect once no MilSAR......
I suppose those lucky boys and girls have to stamp their feet to be heard by the purse holders and get their just rewards.
Surely the military guys vote with their feet too? That would seem to be part of the problem that we see with too many units undermanned and a lost of 24/7 cover.
It only takes back to back desert trips with no future of change for the boys/girls to look else where for work. Maybe the exodus has slowed a little in the current climate but that will change all to soon.
Pas
Surely the military guys vote with their feet too? That would seem to be part of the problem that we see with too many units undermanned and a lost of 24/7 cover.
It only takes back to back desert trips with no future of change for the boys/girls to look else where for work. Maybe the exodus has slowed a little in the current climate but that will change all to soon.
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How's the relationship between SAR and local Ambulance Services these days?
As I recall there used to be "cross training" between the two services where winchmen could get their "numbers up" on a few paramedic procedures by working some shifts out the back of ambulances and in return civvie paramedics gained some "air-time".
My point is:
On top of initial aircrew/winch training (how long is that?), how much "on the job" experience would be required to make an already experienced paramedic a competent winchman? Weeks? Months? Years?
Also, is the paramedic training included in the aircrew training or is it seperate and what time is allocated to each? As this may reflect the importance placed on each skill in SAR.
As a civilian trained paramedic and pilot myself I am curious to find out more about the military side of these professions and then I may be able to provide a contribution to this thread from the non SAR paramedic point of view.
As I recall there used to be "cross training" between the two services where winchmen could get their "numbers up" on a few paramedic procedures by working some shifts out the back of ambulances and in return civvie paramedics gained some "air-time".
My point is:
On top of initial aircrew/winch training (how long is that?), how much "on the job" experience would be required to make an already experienced paramedic a competent winchman? Weeks? Months? Years?
Also, is the paramedic training included in the aircrew training or is it seperate and what time is allocated to each? As this may reflect the importance placed on each skill in SAR.
As a civilian trained paramedic and pilot myself I am curious to find out more about the military side of these professions and then I may be able to provide a contribution to this thread from the non SAR paramedic point of view.
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Crab, Crab, Crab.......
'Sirsoky - it is quite clear you don't know much about helicopter rescues, winchmen or paramedics'.
Whilst no doubt my colleagues who are on shift with me today will no doubt agree with you, I am merely stating that what you and Crabette are 'poo-pooing' is in fact working extremely well in Coast Guard SAR, like it or not. A new pool of potential winchmen is not just available but also required due to the falling numbers of available winchmen from the traditional source!
The RAF don't have a monoploy on good ideas and although you may find it hard to accept there are others capable of designing an extremely robust and effective screening and training protocol to deliver top class professionals to the role of winchmen.
I am annoyed at myself for, after many years of watching with interest, getting into a debate with you when I knew that you had nothing but a 'bigoted' opinion!
Civil SAR is a 'melting pot' of alot of different experiences from which i.m.h.o the best S.O.P.'s are in place to deliver what the end user requires with no less dedication than even your conviction to the cause allows!
Off I go now to watch more 'Deadliest Catch' to further my knowledge of 'helicopter rescues'!
P.S. before anyone jumps down my throat......
bigot noun
/ˈbɪg.ət/ n [C] disapproving
a person who has strong, unreasonable beliefs and who thinks that anyone who does not have the same beliefs is wrong
(Definition of bigot noun from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)
Whilst no doubt my colleagues who are on shift with me today will no doubt agree with you, I am merely stating that what you and Crabette are 'poo-pooing' is in fact working extremely well in Coast Guard SAR, like it or not. A new pool of potential winchmen is not just available but also required due to the falling numbers of available winchmen from the traditional source!
The RAF don't have a monoploy on good ideas and although you may find it hard to accept there are others capable of designing an extremely robust and effective screening and training protocol to deliver top class professionals to the role of winchmen.
I am annoyed at myself for, after many years of watching with interest, getting into a debate with you when I knew that you had nothing but a 'bigoted' opinion!
Civil SAR is a 'melting pot' of alot of different experiences from which i.m.h.o the best S.O.P.'s are in place to deliver what the end user requires with no less dedication than even your conviction to the cause allows!
Off I go now to watch more 'Deadliest Catch' to further my knowledge of 'helicopter rescues'!
P.S. before anyone jumps down my throat......
bigot noun
/ˈbɪg.ət/ n [C] disapproving
a person who has strong, unreasonable beliefs and who thinks that anyone who does not have the same beliefs is wrong
(Definition of bigot noun from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)
Sirsoky - no, the RAF don't have a monopoly on good ideas but cheap ones seem the preserve of the civilian market where grand promises are frequently made to provide equal quality but cheaper and where failures to achieve same are plentiful.
Are your paramedic converts going to Valley for their helicopter training by any chance? Using the SARTU syllabus or similar and run by ex-mil rearcrew?
The only thing your method is achieving is to depress rearcrew salaries because a paramedic who was used to £25K is much more likely to work for £30K than a qualified winchman who is used to earning £40K.
Most SAR rearcrew are dual qualified so they can be either winchmen or winch ops, primarily for difficult wet jobs where a winchman could get exhausted or to cope if the winchman is injured. You can get your paramedics to keep the wire straight with a relatively small amount of training but, compared to a dual qualified rearcrew they bring little to the party and reduce the overall effectiveness of your expensive SAR helicopter.
Cheaper isn't better and at some point it will come back and bite you on the ar*e. Why wait until an accident to realise short-cutting training is folly and a false economy - it is obvious to all those who have a real understanding of SAR. Don't look at the easier and straightforward jobs to set your operating standards, use the really nasty ones that have only had successful outcomes because of the high quaility of the rearcrew - that comes down to experience and really good training and they cost money!
Are your paramedic converts going to Valley for their helicopter training by any chance? Using the SARTU syllabus or similar and run by ex-mil rearcrew?
The only thing your method is achieving is to depress rearcrew salaries because a paramedic who was used to £25K is much more likely to work for £30K than a qualified winchman who is used to earning £40K.
Most SAR rearcrew are dual qualified so they can be either winchmen or winch ops, primarily for difficult wet jobs where a winchman could get exhausted or to cope if the winchman is injured. You can get your paramedics to keep the wire straight with a relatively small amount of training but, compared to a dual qualified rearcrew they bring little to the party and reduce the overall effectiveness of your expensive SAR helicopter.
Cheaper isn't better and at some point it will come back and bite you on the ar*e. Why wait until an accident to realise short-cutting training is folly and a false economy - it is obvious to all those who have a real understanding of SAR. Don't look at the easier and straightforward jobs to set your operating standards, use the really nasty ones that have only had successful outcomes because of the high quaility of the rearcrew - that comes down to experience and really good training and they cost money!
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Crab
I don't always agree with your views on this thread but I don't have the necessary knowledge to counter your statements. However, I take exception to
Sorry chap, but I do think you should reconsider that statement!
I don't always agree with your views on this thread but I don't have the necessary knowledge to counter your statements. However, I take exception to
but cheap ones seem the preserve of the civilian market where grand promises are frequently made to provide equal quality but cheaper and where failures to achieve same are plentiful.
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The Paramedic about to join CHC as a trainee winchman is an experienced Air Ambulance Paramedic. He has flown on at least 15 occasions with SAR helicopters and been winched many times. He has a genuine desire to be an SAR winchman and CHC will benefit from his enthusiasm. He will be paid on exactly the same pay scale as his colleagues. His training will be bespoke; it will largely consist of sorties where the content will be exclusively tailored to his needs. He will be tutored by a team of 3 highly experienced ex military rearcrew instructors. It is estimated that he will have about 80 hours in role by the end of course completion (this is similar to SARTU today and is the SAR-H requirement for winchmen). Finally, he will not go solo on shift until everyone including himself believes that he is ready.
I have said it before: Brit mil SAR is one of the most professional in the world but it would be a world class level of arrogance to presume that others cannot attain that same standard with the correct level of training.
I have said it before: Brit mil SAR is one of the most professional in the world but it would be a world class level of arrogance to presume that others cannot attain that same standard with the correct level of training.
Big Tudor - the constant theme of the anti-mil SAR brigade has been that we are too expensive and a gold-plated option and there has been a persistent belief that it could be done much cheaper.
That belief took us down the road of SARH which, apart from not ever putting a cost on mil SAR, has gradually watered down its grand principle of 'no less capable a service' so that what will come post 2012, unless someone does something brave about it, will be a less capable service (with 2 less flights on 24 hour cover, how can it be anything else).
Why has this happened? Money and profit, not capability or efficiency. The chances are that the 12 hour plans might be reversed once the public outcry is heard but only after the winning bidder is confirmed - then, when the politicians moan on behalf of their constituents, the Govt will have no choice but to hand over more cash to increase the contract provision. A neat trick to get round not being able to bring the project in on cost.
The AW139 was introduced as a new era in SAR - cheaper, faster, more efficient but, in their eagerness to start making money from the newly won interim contract, the contractors skimped on the aircraft lighting and were incapable of ensuring the autopilot modes were cleared for use. The result - no overwater night winching capability for the whole of the Channel.
This latest idea to fill the back end of SAR helos with cheap labour is a cynical, money driven move which shows no respect for the sacrifices and bravery of SAR winchmen/winchops and is only being done because the parent company is trying to reduce costs where it can because that is their driving force, not the provision of the best SAR cover it can get.
For non aviation themes look no further than oh so many computer systems that were promised to create efficiencies and save money - coming in late, over budget and needing more cash thrown at them to get the job done. It seems to be the way of modern business - promise the customer the earth and then blame unforseen circumstances when you can't deliver but have the contract sufficiently well worded that you have wriggle room to avoid ever being penalised financially.
That belief took us down the road of SARH which, apart from not ever putting a cost on mil SAR, has gradually watered down its grand principle of 'no less capable a service' so that what will come post 2012, unless someone does something brave about it, will be a less capable service (with 2 less flights on 24 hour cover, how can it be anything else).
Why has this happened? Money and profit, not capability or efficiency. The chances are that the 12 hour plans might be reversed once the public outcry is heard but only after the winning bidder is confirmed - then, when the politicians moan on behalf of their constituents, the Govt will have no choice but to hand over more cash to increase the contract provision. A neat trick to get round not being able to bring the project in on cost.
The AW139 was introduced as a new era in SAR - cheaper, faster, more efficient but, in their eagerness to start making money from the newly won interim contract, the contractors skimped on the aircraft lighting and were incapable of ensuring the autopilot modes were cleared for use. The result - no overwater night winching capability for the whole of the Channel.
This latest idea to fill the back end of SAR helos with cheap labour is a cynical, money driven move which shows no respect for the sacrifices and bravery of SAR winchmen/winchops and is only being done because the parent company is trying to reduce costs where it can because that is their driving force, not the provision of the best SAR cover it can get.
For non aviation themes look no further than oh so many computer systems that were promised to create efficiencies and save money - coming in late, over budget and needing more cash thrown at them to get the job done. It seems to be the way of modern business - promise the customer the earth and then blame unforseen circumstances when you can't deliver but have the contract sufficiently well worded that you have wriggle room to avoid ever being penalised financially.
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'Genuine desire and enthusiasm' to do the job will only get you so far. Will the next guy have genuine desire and enthusiasm too? Will he have a bespoke course specifically for his needs? What about the guy after that? A formalised course is a must.
Surely there has to be some kind of formal selection process before flying training starts. Tests do exist to establish whether someone has the right qualities. It may be that CHC's man has them all in abundance. Without some kind of pre-selection tests though, it seems like there'll be an awful lot of wastage as those who fail to make the grade in the future get chopped. They will get chopped, won't they?
Surely there has to be some kind of formal selection process before flying training starts. Tests do exist to establish whether someone has the right qualities. It may be that CHC's man has them all in abundance. Without some kind of pre-selection tests though, it seems like there'll be an awful lot of wastage as those who fail to make the grade in the future get chopped. They will get chopped, won't they?
it would be a world class level of arrogance to presume that others cannot attain that same standard with the correct level of training.
This statement is absolutely right. But the concern that Crab et al raise is the conflict of interest between
he will not go solo on shift until everyone including himself believes that he is ready
If so, I'll gladly wind my neck in, but I would wager that the mil chop rate is rather higher than the civ one. And on most SAROPs, an 80%-proficient crewmember may be adequate, but the toughest jobs will eventually take their toll if an individual is not quite up to the mark.
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Winchman Training
This thread has progressed in an interesting direction and there are several facets to it. I should state at the start that I am pro Mil (especially RAF) SAR. Its a system that works brilliantly and gives the best opportunity to train to the highest standard. Arguably, 4 hours per shift is too much CT but just think how quickly you can improve and maintain standards with that level of resources. I’m not niaive enough to think that either bidder will produce that level of resources (actually I know that for a fact) but if there is skimping during the selection and training process then mark my words there will be trouble down the line.
MAX It sounds like that this guy is a top candidate and you have tailored an ad hoc course which will deliver a capable winchman, but have you really dedicated 80 hours just to him and only him? I would be surprised but that is the minimum amount he would need. And what did that consist of? I once had an old and bold civvy “winchman” tell me once “Navigation, why would you teach a winchman navigation when you have 2 pilots and a nav computer?” It’s that sort of thing that leads people to conclude differing levels of operating ability.
It’s a bit like saying “why would you want a radar that points anywhere other than dead ahead” If you have to ask that question you don’t understand.
As far as recruitment is concerned, all you pilots and managers out there get this, Paramedic skills (as opposed to basic medical skills) are only used in approx 5% that is FIVE PER CENT of jobs. So if you are recruiting winchmen on the basis of a paramedic qual you are barking up the wrong tree. You need to select and recruit on an individual’s ability to be AIRCREW and train him accordingly. Sure the odd paramedic will fit the bill so sign him up but don’t think that because of his qual he is a shoo in or you can take short cuts with his training. With that logic, if you get short of winchops you can hire ex crane drivers, after all it’s the same type of thing raising/lowering stuff!!
Paramedic for winchmen was introduced in 1994, before that all those wonderful jobs were carried out using winchman skills. The priority on training and recruitment of winchmen should be to get individuals who are good (or potentially good) AIRCREW and then put them through an established, proven comprehensive training system. With the greatest respect to those in the MCA, I believe the military do that better.
MAX It sounds like that this guy is a top candidate and you have tailored an ad hoc course which will deliver a capable winchman, but have you really dedicated 80 hours just to him and only him? I would be surprised but that is the minimum amount he would need. And what did that consist of? I once had an old and bold civvy “winchman” tell me once “Navigation, why would you teach a winchman navigation when you have 2 pilots and a nav computer?” It’s that sort of thing that leads people to conclude differing levels of operating ability.
It’s a bit like saying “why would you want a radar that points anywhere other than dead ahead” If you have to ask that question you don’t understand.
As far as recruitment is concerned, all you pilots and managers out there get this, Paramedic skills (as opposed to basic medical skills) are only used in approx 5% that is FIVE PER CENT of jobs. So if you are recruiting winchmen on the basis of a paramedic qual you are barking up the wrong tree. You need to select and recruit on an individual’s ability to be AIRCREW and train him accordingly. Sure the odd paramedic will fit the bill so sign him up but don’t think that because of his qual he is a shoo in or you can take short cuts with his training. With that logic, if you get short of winchops you can hire ex crane drivers, after all it’s the same type of thing raising/lowering stuff!!
Paramedic for winchmen was introduced in 1994, before that all those wonderful jobs were carried out using winchman skills. The priority on training and recruitment of winchmen should be to get individuals who are good (or potentially good) AIRCREW and then put them through an established, proven comprehensive training system. With the greatest respect to those in the MCA, I believe the military do that better.
Max, the guys who will be doing the training are all ex-mil who I have had the pleasure and privilege of flying with - I know the paramedic will be getting the best instruction and mentoring.
This guy will be a trial case and it might go well or not so well depending on his capabilities and guess what - this concept of training on the front line has been done before - by the military - and although it can be done in isolated cases, it is not sustainable.
You need a properly funded, manned and structured training system which costs money - trying to cuff it by using spare hours on the operational SAR flight is tricky and in the end takes longer - we know we have done it at Chivenor.
This guy will be a trial case and it might go well or not so well depending on his capabilities and guess what - this concept of training on the front line has been done before - by the military - and although it can be done in isolated cases, it is not sustainable.
You need a properly funded, manned and structured training system which costs money - trying to cuff it by using spare hours on the operational SAR flight is tricky and in the end takes longer - we know we have done it at Chivenor.
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I Know I shouldn't, but here's my tuppence worth
I would have to say that I agree entirely with the previous two posts,
When an Employer finds itself in a position where they have hired the individual on his previous merits as a Paramedic / diver / mountain rescue, Without a strict grading process prior to employment to ensure he/she has good spatial awareness, ability to problem solve and think on his feet, mental arithmetic and fitness levels.
and post the initial training period If there is not enough stringent continuation training given to cover all aviation related topics and strict standard maintained, what will you end up with?, probably a Paramedic wire straightener that needs constant wet nursing......."Nav,met,fuel checks etc, etc, nah that's pilot sh@t",.....and hoping that after scraping the standard on his initial training, putting him on his own will be just fine, he will improve with time.
.....what do you do then as the employer if you have concerns that the individual does not either come up to scratch or maintain his/her level of enthusiasm.....not so easy in civvy street, in the Mil you have CofC, standards visits etc to ensure he is up to standard and if not you have a means to terminate his flying carrer if he continues to fail the standard, In civvy street this guy has a contract, and if it is not very carefully written then you cannot simply sack him.
I am not saying that any will fail the "standard", but it needs to be considered and those concerned with setting it need to ensure it is maintained as it is all to easy to become complacent as a civvy with no standards breathing down your neck.
The emphasis most certainly does need to be on professional aviator training rather being confused with medical ability, you need to get to the cas SAFELY before you can do anything to treat him/ her
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Sorry to muddy the water with the odd fact:
Commercial pressure? - Trust me that if this was a commercial decision, CHC would not be doing it. It will always be cheaper and quicker to employ a fully trained ex military SAR winchman. This new winchman will be on the standard payscale.
Aircrew first, paramedic second? - No argument here. Do we have to train them that way round? Of course you don't.
Should winchmen go through a recognised training course at a recognised training establishment? - Yes they should!
Civilian SAR has a low and unpredictable turnover of rearcrew, at the moment with four bases it cannot justify an established training school. This will be addressed under SAR-H. A winchman vacancy has arisen at a time when there are no suitable external applicants and there is access to a qualified paramedic, bursting with enthusiasm who has undergone extensive winching and water confidence selection under the supervision of the Chief Crewman. This is a costly investment in an individual, who would otherwise be unable to realise his dream to become an SAR winchman and CHC hope that the investment will be repaid through the acquisition of a dedicated employee for years to come.
I say to him. "Good luck in your course and welcome to the SAR fraternity"
(where people watch a lot of SKY TV and repeatedly post on the internet how their dick is bigger than that of their civ/mil counterpart)
Commercial pressure? - Trust me that if this was a commercial decision, CHC would not be doing it. It will always be cheaper and quicker to employ a fully trained ex military SAR winchman. This new winchman will be on the standard payscale.
Aircrew first, paramedic second? - No argument here. Do we have to train them that way round? Of course you don't.
Should winchmen go through a recognised training course at a recognised training establishment? - Yes they should!
Civilian SAR has a low and unpredictable turnover of rearcrew, at the moment with four bases it cannot justify an established training school. This will be addressed under SAR-H. A winchman vacancy has arisen at a time when there are no suitable external applicants and there is access to a qualified paramedic, bursting with enthusiasm who has undergone extensive winching and water confidence selection under the supervision of the Chief Crewman. This is a costly investment in an individual, who would otherwise be unable to realise his dream to become an SAR winchman and CHC hope that the investment will be repaid through the acquisition of a dedicated employee for years to come.
I say to him. "Good luck in your course and welcome to the SAR fraternity"
(where people watch a lot of SKY TV and repeatedly post on the internet how their dick is bigger than that of their civ/mil counterpart)
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Max
Certainly sounds like you have a determined and committed individual there which counts for a lot.
Just a point, some years ago the RAF trained a winchman who had come from a "Sneaky Beaky" background and did so without the benefit of the Rotary Famil training prior to the SAR course. He did very well during SAR training and has since become an outstanding winchman but in the early years he struggled with basic crewman skills e.g. sloping ground, understanding aircraft emergencies, USLs ( I know you don't do that) nav, nvg, etc etc. It illustrates my general point that aircrew training in general and rotary training in particular is an important prerequisite of SAR training.
However, notwithstanding all that i wish you and him the best of luck for the future.
Certainly sounds like you have a determined and committed individual there which counts for a lot.
Just a point, some years ago the RAF trained a winchman who had come from a "Sneaky Beaky" background and did so without the benefit of the Rotary Famil training prior to the SAR course. He did very well during SAR training and has since become an outstanding winchman but in the early years he struggled with basic crewman skills e.g. sloping ground, understanding aircraft emergencies, USLs ( I know you don't do that) nav, nvg, etc etc. It illustrates my general point that aircrew training in general and rotary training in particular is an important prerequisite of SAR training.
However, notwithstanding all that i wish you and him the best of luck for the future.
Max -
because it has always had a supply of very well trained ex-mil guys.
that depends on what pay scale you are offering - nowadays offering ex-mil guys less because they have a pension to rely on doesn't wash - the guys know their worth and many are hanging on for SARH jobs. So it still is a commercial decision. Did the post get advertised at all?
I and others believe otherwise - if he wasn't a paramedic you wouldn't give him all that medical training before aircrew training would you?
SARTU sees lots of fine chaps bursting with enthusiasm to be SAR winchmen but not all of them can do it despite any special skill sets they might have from previous lives.
I am sure he is a fine chap and I wish him the best of luck but at some point somone in your training setup might have to make a hard decision.
Civilian SAR has a low and unpredictable turnover of rearcrew,
Trust me that if this was a commercial decision, CHC would not be doing it. It will always be cheaper and quicker to employ a fully trained ex military SAR winchman
Aircrew first, paramedic second? - No argument here. Do we have to train them that way round? Of course you don't.
SARTU sees lots of fine chaps bursting with enthusiasm to be SAR winchmen but not all of them can do it despite any special skill sets they might have from previous lives.
I am sure he is a fine chap and I wish him the best of luck but at some point somone in your training setup might have to make a hard decision.
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Before you go much further with this discussion, perhaps you ought to read this link - RAF plans huge cuts in aircraft and stations - Times Online
If the RAF is planning on cutting all of its Tornado fleet and nearly all of its Harrier Force, then how can it ever justify keeping SAR in its present form?
Also worth having a look here:
Petition to: stop any further cuts to our armed forces, to do so would be wholly irresponsible and place the security of our nation in danger. | Number10.gov.uk
If the RAF is planning on cutting all of its Tornado fleet and nearly all of its Harrier Force, then how can it ever justify keeping SAR in its present form?
Also worth having a look here:
Petition to: stop any further cuts to our armed forces, to do so would be wholly irresponsible and place the security of our nation in danger. | Number10.gov.uk
If the RAF is planning on cutting all of its Tornado fleet and nearly all of its Harrier Force, then how can it ever justify keeping SAR in its present form?
There is also an argument for having the UK's fleet of SAR helicopters under military management, so that they can be used for other military tasks should the situation arise. Unlikely, you may say, but never say never!