SARH to go
If the AW101 made sense as a cost effective platform for this bid, then it would be in the solution (just look at it’s runaway success in the offshore oil market), so let’s not bring UK manufacturing jobs into the equation when talking about saving lives.
Both the Danes and the Canadians have found out the hard way that they require a larger fleet of new build AW101’s in order to provide the same SAR coverage, and still both countries are struggling to achieve 50% operational availability. If testament were needed as to why the AW101 should be excluded from UK-SAR-H, then surely this is it.
The AW101 is a very high maintenance platform and as a result, a very expensive solution. Using both civil and military in-service operational availability data, just how many platforms would be needed to cover 12 bases and add to this the cost to the UK taxpayer over 25 to 30-years doesn’t bare thinking about.
Politically, building someone else’s platform in the UK looks good, but it adds substantially to the cost of the platform (think WAH-64) and as this is a competition, this notion fell by the wayside on day one.
This bid isn’t about protectionism, platform choice or UK jobs, it’s about providing the best SAR-H solution for saving lives for a cash strapped Government who is legally bound to provide (long-term) reliable SAR-H cover around our nations coastline.
PFI’s may not be the best solution for the UK taxpayer in the long-run, but a PFI is the Governments preferred choice and all the bidders since day one have merely responded to this chosen method. As the requirement is for UK coverage, there can be no doubt that a large part of the tax payer’s money will be recycled back into the UK economy through crewing, maintenance, support and even finance over the next 25 to 30-years.
Both Mil and Civil Rotary aviation has been my bag since leaving school many moons ago and as a result I’ve got to know a great many people within both sectors and I’ve also been following this PFI closely.
With the teams now whittled down to the last two and being so close to selection of a preferred bidder (assuming SAR-H is not canned by the very people who instigated it), I suspect the crews, engineers and heaven forbid - even most of the management involved in both the bidding teams are a nervous bunch of late and for them winning is not about profit or greed, but about coming out on top (and no not at any price) and the pride that is associated with being selected as the preferred choice to provide such a challenging and worthwhile service.
For the loser there is only disbelief and hurt (and a legal challenge I suspect), so good luck to both teams.
Both the Danes and the Canadians have found out the hard way that they require a larger fleet of new build AW101’s in order to provide the same SAR coverage, and still both countries are struggling to achieve 50% operational availability. If testament were needed as to why the AW101 should be excluded from UK-SAR-H, then surely this is it.
The AW101 is a very high maintenance platform and as a result, a very expensive solution. Using both civil and military in-service operational availability data, just how many platforms would be needed to cover 12 bases and add to this the cost to the UK taxpayer over 25 to 30-years doesn’t bare thinking about.
Politically, building someone else’s platform in the UK looks good, but it adds substantially to the cost of the platform (think WAH-64) and as this is a competition, this notion fell by the wayside on day one.
This bid isn’t about protectionism, platform choice or UK jobs, it’s about providing the best SAR-H solution for saving lives for a cash strapped Government who is legally bound to provide (long-term) reliable SAR-H cover around our nations coastline.
PFI’s may not be the best solution for the UK taxpayer in the long-run, but a PFI is the Governments preferred choice and all the bidders since day one have merely responded to this chosen method. As the requirement is for UK coverage, there can be no doubt that a large part of the tax payer’s money will be recycled back into the UK economy through crewing, maintenance, support and even finance over the next 25 to 30-years.
Both Mil and Civil Rotary aviation has been my bag since leaving school many moons ago and as a result I’ve got to know a great many people within both sectors and I’ve also been following this PFI closely.
With the teams now whittled down to the last two and being so close to selection of a preferred bidder (assuming SAR-H is not canned by the very people who instigated it), I suspect the crews, engineers and heaven forbid - even most of the management involved in both the bidding teams are a nervous bunch of late and for them winning is not about profit or greed, but about coming out on top (and no not at any price) and the pride that is associated with being selected as the preferred choice to provide such a challenging and worthwhile service.
For the loser there is only disbelief and hurt (and a legal challenge I suspect), so good luck to both teams.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: In England
Posts: 371
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said HiLife - couldn't disagree with anything you have said - I trust therefore you noted my degrees of saracsm and cynicism in my previous post re AW101.
My point therefore holds - UK politicians (of both main parties) - particularly in their dying moments - have been known to support what is perceived to be the best political way forward from their perspective - and AW produced helos have been previously in favour in this respect - often! - sadly these decisions do not neccessairly take any in depth account of the very facts you have rightly detailed. So anyone taking bets between now and the next election of the outcome of the SAR-H platform selection should be at the very least a tad wary!
Personally I believe the AW101 would make an excellent SAR-H platform (in certain numbers within a mixed fleet) from purely an operational perspective. I totally agree that the cost of ownership would be expensive on the face of it depending on who you talk to and despite earlier customer experiences....but such a price has been paid by UK governments before ---and now I am repeating myself...
Cheers
My point therefore holds - UK politicians (of both main parties) - particularly in their dying moments - have been known to support what is perceived to be the best political way forward from their perspective - and AW produced helos have been previously in favour in this respect - often! - sadly these decisions do not neccessairly take any in depth account of the very facts you have rightly detailed. So anyone taking bets between now and the next election of the outcome of the SAR-H platform selection should be at the very least a tad wary!
Personally I believe the AW101 would make an excellent SAR-H platform (in certain numbers within a mixed fleet) from purely an operational perspective. I totally agree that the cost of ownership would be expensive on the face of it depending on who you talk to and despite earlier customer experiences....but such a price has been paid by UK governments before ---and now I am repeating myself...
Cheers
Last edited by Tallsar; 28th Sep 2009 at 10:52.
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: In the Country
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I struggle to see a situation where a legal challenge could happen, the process of 'competitive dialogue' or secrecy has meant that there has been no real interference in the bid process, and as far as I am aware, no UK PFI competition decision has been challenged in the courts, not like in the US.
I don't know how much capital bidders invest in other PFIs but I think we are talking big bucks that the loser will have forfeited - not only all the legwork going into preparing the bid but also a large deposit to secure the airframes on the production run at the factories of both Sikorsky and Eurocopter.
I understand that a major requirement of a PFI is to show value for money but since no-one was able or willing to establish what SAR is currently costing or would cost for 25 years retaining the present service providers, this would be difficult to achieve. A military solution was not allowed to be entered either so any legal challenge might hinge on whether the PFI process can be shown to be as squeaky clean as possible. If there are any errors in procedure then I am sure the lawyers will find them.
I understand that a major requirement of a PFI is to show value for money but since no-one was able or willing to establish what SAR is currently costing or would cost for 25 years retaining the present service providers, this would be difficult to achieve. A military solution was not allowed to be entered either so any legal challenge might hinge on whether the PFI process can be shown to be as squeaky clean as possible. If there are any errors in procedure then I am sure the lawyers will find them.
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: In the Country
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AirKnight has bought the EC225 slots, but Soteria has actually ordered their aircraft, but they can be converted to offshore use if not used for SAR.
I see your point, but bringing a claim to court would be a real struggle, companies enter these bids on the risk it might fail, there will be winners and losers and in a two-horse race, there's no room for re-bidding, any sensible judge would throw it out, you just have to find a sensible judge.
I see your point, but bringing a claim to court would be a real struggle, companies enter these bids on the risk it might fail, there will be winners and losers and in a two-horse race, there's no room for re-bidding, any sensible judge would throw it out, you just have to find a sensible judge.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was at a SAR-H IPT brief quite recently. Ten million quid is the bidding estimate - they think it unlikely a failed bidder will make a challenge.
Aircraft are to be black and orange (sorry if that's old news).
Aircraft are to be black and orange (sorry if that's old news).
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: In England
Posts: 371
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SB - Now there's an unintentional bit of misinfo --- If its an MoD estimate of the bid costs - fine (after all - they are not paying for the bids up front)....as usual they are likely to be way off the mark - only industry can capture its real costs. Each bidder will have had a different bid budget.....£10M for nearly four years work seems a little low to me!!
Cheers
Cheers
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: S England
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tallsar is right - £10M is low. Bid cost can be up top 10% of the contract price. IIRC the bidder that pulled out a year ago had bid costs of around £10M and it was a very lean team.
In the ideal world, the decision will be made soon, and the successful bidder will be wanting some money from HMG so they can prepare for 2012.
But what happens if the Govt simply doesn't have the funds available to pay up? At a time when a great many projects in all fields are being put on ice due to the general lack of money, how long could the Govt drag its heels? Is there scope to extend the MCA interim contract beyond 2012 in extremis?
I'm sure plenty of people will say "That couldn't happen", and I daresay that's true, but I'm just interested in what the alternatives are if the Govt chooses to delay making a firm commitment. The Mil SAR flts could soldier on indefinitely if required, but I wonder if CHC could do the same. Sorry if this has been posed before, but I don't recall seeing it.
But what happens if the Govt simply doesn't have the funds available to pay up? At a time when a great many projects in all fields are being put on ice due to the general lack of money, how long could the Govt drag its heels? Is there scope to extend the MCA interim contract beyond 2012 in extremis?
I'm sure plenty of people will say "That couldn't happen", and I daresay that's true, but I'm just interested in what the alternatives are if the Govt chooses to delay making a firm commitment. The Mil SAR flts could soldier on indefinitely if required, but I wonder if CHC could do the same. Sorry if this has been posed before, but I don't recall seeing it.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Scotch Land
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SAR-H and the Future??
Crab, you may just be right about standards dropping somewhat old boy. Rumour has it that the current SAR providers (and maybe hot favourites for SAR-H). No names, but initials sound like C*C, are about to take a paramedic off the street and ‘train’ up to be a winch man. 
All this ‘training’ will happen on a current SAR base with an in house training package using current allocated aircraft training hours.
Cost cutting the extensive (expensive??) route of RAF Valley training and its proven training methods?. What sort of starting salary is on offer I would hate to think! Anyone know?? I have a few old contacts in Eastern Europe keen for work in the UK doing something that doesn’t require too much knowledge/training to replace the aging very experienced but obviously expensive burden to the current and maybe next SAR-H providers.
How do the current crews feel about this proposal and the effect on their terms and conditions not to mention the ‘specialisation’ that was the hallmark of professional helicopter operations. Very sad to hear that the standards are being lowered in these cost cutting moves. Did the hard hit operators ‘Management’, get the Interim contract figures so wrong? Is it true that a ballot for strike over pay/erosion of terms and conditions is being undertaken as I go to print?
DOES NOT BODE WELL FOR SAR-H. Shame really, to see all those years of a job so well done by the Old providers undermined by the ‘Mismanagement’ of the current ones. Does the DFt/MCA/public accept this reduction of training standards with possible casualty, aircrew and aircraft flight safety implications; hmm one does wonder.
Fly Safe you SAR boys & girls. x
All this ‘training’ will happen on a current SAR base with an in house training package using current allocated aircraft training hours.
Cost cutting the extensive (expensive??) route of RAF Valley training and its proven training methods?. What sort of starting salary is on offer I would hate to think! Anyone know?? I have a few old contacts in Eastern Europe keen for work in the UK doing something that doesn’t require too much knowledge/training to replace the aging very experienced but obviously expensive burden to the current and maybe next SAR-H providers.
How do the current crews feel about this proposal and the effect on their terms and conditions not to mention the ‘specialisation’ that was the hallmark of professional helicopter operations. Very sad to hear that the standards are being lowered in these cost cutting moves. Did the hard hit operators ‘Management’, get the Interim contract figures so wrong? Is it true that a ballot for strike over pay/erosion of terms and conditions is being undertaken as I go to print?
DOES NOT BODE WELL FOR SAR-H. Shame really, to see all those years of a job so well done by the Old providers undermined by the ‘Mismanagement’ of the current ones. Does the DFt/MCA/public accept this reduction of training standards with possible casualty, aircrew and aircraft flight safety implications; hmm one does wonder.
Fly Safe you SAR boys & girls. x
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Doesn't Matter
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Copied from another Thread seeing as Crabette posted there too!
Look outside your box!
Crabette,
'take a paramedic off the street and ‘train’ up to be a winch man'....
Firstly: Paramedics are probably taken out of an ambulance or response car and therefore are quite probably on top of their 'medical' game and far more current / experienced than some Winchmen.
Secondly: in order for a Paramedic to be 'taken off the street' they would most likely not be willing to take a pay cut and therefore probably get paid more than most military winchmen!?!
Thirdly: It has already been done very sucessfully in the organisation you so covertly mention.
If the appropriate screening and testing techniques are applied to applicants from this background you get an extremely high standard of professional who then needs the appropriate training in aviation which can be easily carried out at an operational base over an appropriate period of time.
All this has been done, and I think you are being highly disengenuious to people you may have to work with in the very near future!! (Hopefully)
It is about time some of the 'light blue' began to open their minds to what may well be the way ahead!! You never know, you may even have to sit beside an aircraft commander who is civilian trained.........
Crabette,
'take a paramedic off the street and ‘train’ up to be a winch man'....
Firstly: Paramedics are probably taken out of an ambulance or response car and therefore are quite probably on top of their 'medical' game and far more current / experienced than some Winchmen.
Secondly: in order for a Paramedic to be 'taken off the street' they would most likely not be willing to take a pay cut and therefore probably get paid more than most military winchmen!?!
Thirdly: It has already been done very sucessfully in the organisation you so covertly mention.
If the appropriate screening and testing techniques are applied to applicants from this background you get an extremely high standard of professional who then needs the appropriate training in aviation which can be easily carried out at an operational base over an appropriate period of time.
All this has been done, and I think you are being highly disengenuious to people you may have to work with in the very near future!! (Hopefully)
It is about time some of the 'light blue' began to open their minds to what may well be the way ahead!! You never know, you may even have to sit beside an aircraft commander who is civilian trained.........
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Monde
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the appropriate screening and testing techniques are applied to applicants
the appropriate training in aviation which can be easily carried out at an operational base over an appropriate period of time.
Sirsoky - a UK NHS paramedic gets about £25K - we pay our winchmen a lot more than that!
The fundamental problem with your argument is that of working environment - our winchmen don't have to be medical gurus (they are well trained though) they have to be fit, strong and bloody brave - they also have to be very competent helicopter operators. The training and selection process to get a paramedic would need to be the equivalent of what we do now because the product cannot afford to be any less capable.
Anyone who thinks being a SAR winchman is the same as being an ambulance paramedic but in a different uniform is kidding themselves and clearly has never been winched over 1000' of fresh air in the mountains, clung to an icy cliff in a gale, been dumped unceremoniously onto a violently pitching deck in the dark or any of the hundreds of DANGEROUS positions a SAR winchman has to be prepared to go in order to save lives.
It's not the the light blue need to open their minds, it is that those who think they can do SAR on the cheap don't really understand what the job is about. The civilian winchmen on SAR are made of the same stern stuff as the military and the pilots are equally skilled - do you want to take a CPL with R22 time and put him in as a SAR captain? Think of the money it would save and after all, SAR can't be that difficult can it?
The fundamental problem with your argument is that of working environment - our winchmen don't have to be medical gurus (they are well trained though) they have to be fit, strong and bloody brave - they also have to be very competent helicopter operators. The training and selection process to get a paramedic would need to be the equivalent of what we do now because the product cannot afford to be any less capable.
Anyone who thinks being a SAR winchman is the same as being an ambulance paramedic but in a different uniform is kidding themselves and clearly has never been winched over 1000' of fresh air in the mountains, clung to an icy cliff in a gale, been dumped unceremoniously onto a violently pitching deck in the dark or any of the hundreds of DANGEROUS positions a SAR winchman has to be prepared to go in order to save lives.
It's not the the light blue need to open their minds, it is that those who think they can do SAR on the cheap don't really understand what the job is about. The civilian winchmen on SAR are made of the same stern stuff as the military and the pilots are equally skilled - do you want to take a CPL with R22 time and put him in as a SAR captain? Think of the money it would save and after all, SAR can't be that difficult can it?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Doesn't Matter
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh no, here I go!
'The training and selection process to get a paramedic would need to be the equivalent of what we do now because the product cannot afford to be any less capable.'......
Who says it isn't better??! Are you aware that there are Paramedics out there who actually have more time served on fishing boats, fire services, lifeboats, mountain rescue teams etc etc than even you can imagine!! Get a grip fella.....
'do you want to take a CPL with R22 time and put him in as a SAR captain?'........
Who does this? Of course that is not how it works! Anyway what company in their right mind would ever let an ex R22 CPL become a SAR Captain at any point!!??
Where would we be in the world if one organisation thought their way was the only way! Bloody hell 'the earth is flat'!!
My point was / is .......'Look outside your box' and see what is actually happening in the world of Coast Guard SAR.
Who says it isn't better??! Are you aware that there are Paramedics out there who actually have more time served on fishing boats, fire services, lifeboats, mountain rescue teams etc etc than even you can imagine!! Get a grip fella.....
'do you want to take a CPL with R22 time and put him in as a SAR captain?'........
Who does this? Of course that is not how it works! Anyway what company in their right mind would ever let an ex R22 CPL become a SAR Captain at any point!!??
Where would we be in the world if one organisation thought their way was the only way! Bloody hell 'the earth is flat'!!
My point was / is .......'Look outside your box' and see what is actually happening in the world of Coast Guard SAR.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: scotland
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
paramedic winchmen
Well said Crab!
"Winchman First, Paramedic second" would seem to be a good premise. I suggest that there are NHS Paramedics who would, given the chance, make excellent winchmen but they have to have the proper aircrew training. Winchman are aircrew, as much part of the team as front enders and to suggest that all you need to do is get someone who already knows all the "important stuff" (medical) and give him a bit of training to get him up to speed on the "other stuff" (being SAR aircrew) and hey presto you have an effective winchman is not only irresponsible but potentially dangerous (to self, survivor and possibly aircraft and crew).
Interesting to watch Highland Rescue and Coastal Rescue programmes this week. On each the RAF winchman was thinking about the difficulty of the winching, fuel state, weather etc whilst treating the casualty and thus modifying his treatment accordingly. That sort of judgement is essential, a product of aircrew training and anyone who thinks you can do without it is either kidding himself or short of cash.
"Winchman First, Paramedic second" would seem to be a good premise. I suggest that there are NHS Paramedics who would, given the chance, make excellent winchmen but they have to have the proper aircrew training. Winchman are aircrew, as much part of the team as front enders and to suggest that all you need to do is get someone who already knows all the "important stuff" (medical) and give him a bit of training to get him up to speed on the "other stuff" (being SAR aircrew) and hey presto you have an effective winchman is not only irresponsible but potentially dangerous (to self, survivor and possibly aircraft and crew).
Interesting to watch Highland Rescue and Coastal Rescue programmes this week. On each the RAF winchman was thinking about the difficulty of the winching, fuel state, weather etc whilst treating the casualty and thus modifying his treatment accordingly. That sort of judgement is essential, a product of aircrew training and anyone who thinks you can do without it is either kidding himself or short of cash.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Monde
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is it true that a ballot for strike over pay/erosion of terms and conditions is being undertaken as I go to print?
Spot on, Lost Horizon and Crab.