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The R22 corner: Owning, flying & training questions

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The R22 corner: Owning, flying & training questions

Old 23rd Jan 2008, 22:20
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Thanks Whirls, an R22 it is then.
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Old 24th Jan 2008, 04:53
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
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R22/44? If you stand back and look at what you're trying to achieve, I don't think cost comes into it, so much as safety.

I suggest that all Robinson pilots watch the Robinson safety video. Order from Robinson's website; if you are in the UK, it's only $55 including shipping, which is cheap when you consider what you can learn from it. It's has a series of sobering clips in it. Forget the Davtron, and whether the lever is fully down. Learn how to enter auto! My experience with students is that they are inevitably slow to get that lever down, and as time passes since getting their PPL, they become less and less able to enter auto, turn into wind and find a field, let alone keep the Nr under control and demonstrate the potential to carry out a safe landing. (Is that too long a sentence?).

Back to my first paragraph and cost - the 44 may be more expensive, but I believe it's safer and more manageable for a low time pilot - more power and more potential Nr when you need it (ie without an engine!)

Cheers, WW
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Old 24th Jan 2008, 08:41
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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WW,

Some more good points, I will double check with my flying school to see if they would like to offer me a good rate on their R44, if not then it WILL have to be the R22!
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Old 24th Jan 2008, 08:52
  #84 (permalink)  

Hovering AND talking
 
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The only way that they will offer a good rate is if you pay in advance for a considerable number of hours. Do not pay in advance.

Cheers

Whirls
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Old 24th Jan 2008, 09:50
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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DO NOT PAY IN ADVANCE?

Why, in case the school folds perhaps?

Or in case I decide that this helicopter flying isn't for me?

They do offer reductions for bulk buys!
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Old 24th Jan 2008, 09:54
  #86 (permalink)  

Hovering AND talking
 
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Yes, in case the school folds. In the past year, I can think of two schools that have folded owing students money and they were both well publicized on PPRuNe. And going even further back, there are several schools in the UK who have gone bust.

If you only listen to one piece of advice on this thread, please listen to this one.

Cheers

Whirls
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Old 24th Jan 2008, 10:21
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Presumably learning on a Jet Ranger will be cost prohibitive?
Only you can answer that question. Consider what your longer term objectives may be. If you intend to fly as a professional pilot, by training in the 206, you will have a head start on building turbine time. If you intend to operate a turbine helicopter for personal use, you will have a head start building trubine time for insurance purposes. No doubt you will pay more, but you will also get more.

EN48
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Old 24th Jan 2008, 17:07
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Must check all of this out when I get a minute, thanks everybody.
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Old 27th Jan 2008, 11:45
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Just ordered the R22 Safety DVD direct from Robinson and I have to say certainly on 'accessories' their service was second to none!
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Old 27th Jan 2008, 16:32
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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"Just ordered the R22 Safety DVD"
Be forewarned: The DVD is quite graphic and after viewing it, some may decide to never leave the ground in an R22. However, if you can get past this, its an excellent training aid.

Last edited by EN48; 27th Jan 2008 at 16:43.
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Old 28th Jan 2008, 01:54
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Be forewarned: The DVD is quite graphic and after viewing it, some may decide to never leave the ground in an R22. However, if you can get past this, its an excellent training aid.
Then it'll be better to watch it straight after successful PPL checkride before embarking on longer/more frequent solos :-P
I think I'll just get mine in the US or just borrow it from flight school.
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Old 7th Feb 2008, 08:51
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Robinson limitations

I would like to pose a general question to all you Robinson jockeys out there.

1,
What wind strength/conditions would make you feel 'nervous'.

2,
What wind strength/conditions would you decide to cancel or even scrub your flight.

3,
What wind strength would you worry about starting/stopping (blade sailing)

The reason I ask is that there seems to be a huge range of opinion in pilots I have spoken to, Also Quite often I am flying in the AS350 on nasty but 'ok' days and am amazed to see 22's and 44's chopping away with no apparent reduction in speed or route!! Surely if Im feeling the bumps in the squirell it must be even worse in the teetering headed machines!!
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Old 7th Feb 2008, 09:26
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Windy days in Robinson's finest...

Hmmm. Well, everyone has opinions, so mebbe this'll be all controversial and stuff, but...

R22 is apparently different to the 44. I'm told the 22 actually handles better in turbulence, f'rinstance. (Shorter blades). My time is all in the 22, so I can only answer the 22 part of the question. First answer from most people, of course, would be look in the manual - Mr Robinson lays it out pretty comprehensively. In my opinion, the limitations there are bang on, if not on the high side, for lower time 22 pilots. Second answer, as usual in all aviation, is "it depends". No simple answers here - flying in or near mountains? Or on a big flat plain? We talking about wind on the ground, or up high? Weight? Density altitude? All sorts of things to consider....with all the caveats in place, and bearing in mind I'm talking ONLY about you have a few hours up, though, I'll guestimate for you...

1,
What wind strength/conditions would make you feel 'nervous'.

Personally, I've flown in up to 50 knots up high, say 30 on the ground, no worries. BUT BUT BUT - my instructor, who's very experienced, told me that was pushing it, and now I usually stay on the ground at 40 (up high) and above. Wind on the ground? I guess I'm pretty comfortable with, say, 30 knots...but gust spread would also be a very big factor. For what it's worth, when I was flying, in the mountains, in bad WX, in 50 knots, I was happy enough, but getting bumped all over the place, with pitch and roll excursions that wouldn't be comfortable for passengers. Crucial issue in a 22, of course, is mast bumping/zero G, so I tend to use reduced power settings (minimises roll in zero G) and also accept a certain amount of "where the wind takes me is where I go". I think of it as similar to white water kayaking in a strong current - you don't have total control as to your route, really - in the mountains, anyway. The stronger the wind, the more updrafts, and where there are updrafts, there be downdrafts. You certainly need to be confident with predicting what the wind is actually going to DO, when it hits big lumps of rock, before you go anywhere near said lumps of rock in high winds.

2,
What wind strength/conditions would you decide to cancel or even scrub your flight.

Cancel v scrub - synonyms? Again, it depends. At higher density altitudes, higher weights, 40 knots is my usual limit, and sometimes much lower. There are some conditions where 20 knots could get you hurt, or at best embarrassed. Depends on the mission. High DA's (eg a lot of Western US flying) means that reduced performance is a huge issue, and it may not take too much for downdraft to be greater than aircraft performance. If nothing else, I always consider fuel load in situations like this. Again, for me, the main issue is what the wind does when it hits bits of rock - downdrafts and so on. Of course, you could technically fly perfectly comfortably in 200 knots (not including landing & T/O of course) if it was a smooth flow over flat ground. Down our way, there's not much flat ground though.

3,
What wind strength would you worry about starting/stopping (blade sailing)

Anything substantial - 20 knots would have me thinking. I don't understand blade sailing as well as I would like to. I just ensure the controls are positioned so the front blade is as low as poss, which means the back one will be high....I hope I have that right?

In any wind conditions, anything at all, I also think hard about downwind operations. Often I treat my 22 as a "one way" machine - I'll ONLY fly into wind, until I'm at least 1000 feet off the ground. This means no downwind pedal turns to get to the gas pumps, or whatever...and this could be as low as 5 knots. Again, "it depends".

I have to stress - these are my PERSONAL limitations, and I cannot recommend that anyone else follow my advice. In fact, this isn't advice - just answering the question about what I do, myself. If in doubt, look in the manual, and treat that as an upper limit...and never be shy about asking an instructor to go up with you in real wind conditions and see what it's like...presuming, of course, that the instructor is experienced and competent. I've often thought there's too much of a gap between instruction (usually on good days) and real world ops for private owners. Proper comprehensive training, of course, could close that gap...
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Old 7th Feb 2008, 09:56
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Can i tag a dumb question on to this thread.

Should be training on a 300 at either Bournemouth or Shoreham this year.

Why is an R22 cheaper to run. Is is maint or purchase price. It is cheaper to pay for the 12 year rebuild than buy the varios differnet timed parts for the 300 over same period. I know the 300 has an 0360 over the R22's 0320, surely it cant just be down to that for the 40 hr sfh rates ?
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Old 7th Feb 2008, 18:59
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Poor Southerner,
Parts are fewer and simpler, Just look at the drivetrain of a 300 vs an R22, look at the undercarrige of the 300 and note all those extra parts including shocks that need to be serviced. You have one extra main blade that has a limited life and a more complicated rotorhead with extra dampers and other lifed parts.
All these lifed parts have their hourly costs added up so when overhaul time comes the cash is sitting in the bank to replace those items.
Also the fact that there are many thousands of R22s out there probably means the sale of far more parts which in turn brings down production costs.
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Old 7th Feb 2008, 19:54
  #96 (permalink)  
iws
 
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You should be flying an Enstrom anyway.
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Old 8th Feb 2008, 06:50
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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would love to train on an Enstrom, I think they still have one at Goodwood as well.
But again costs are even higher for some reason. ??
It has an 0360 like a S300 and three blades. When they try and sell you one they say how good it is for component times etc, yet its even more per hour to hire / train. Again am I missing something ?
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Old 8th Feb 2008, 08:58
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Q's

I have all my TT on the 300. ... I recently had a chat with an R44 pilot and a walk around the R44 at a well established school as I am looking at getting a type rating. This was the first time I have stood up close and looked over an R44. .. The two types (R44 v 300) are chalk and cheese I know ...

I walked away not to keen, but not totally off the idea of getting the rating ... IMHO there are obvious short comings with the Rob family, if there was not then we would not be posting about it here.

I have a couple of Questions of a Rob pilot: Can you check the plates and Teeter hinge, Pitch rods etc physically yourself in preflight (is it required in the preflight check) .. Why are the checks for the electric bus in the engine bay??, you have to look back into the cockpit from outside to check your bulbs, this seems a tad cheap and weird ?? ... I have never looked at the manual, whats the AUW ??

I was impressed by the size of Tail Rotor, and the main blade aspect, not as large as the 206 but still bigger that expected .. Is the tail rotor authority good ??
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Old 8th Feb 2008, 11:15
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Ding Dong:

Yes, you can check all the bits you need to from a pre-flight need. Depending on how tall you are, you might need a ladder to see/feel the top surface of the blades, although I have seen someone once standing on the top of the main fuel tank.

The press-to-test lights are where they are - it was designed that way for presumably very good reasons (someone correct me, but the whole circuit gets tested, not just the bulb), like not having oodles of wiring leading to the console and back. Unless you're a midget, there's no problem seeing the lights when testing them.

AUW is 2400lb, except Raven II which is 2500. Tail rotor authority is excellent, given that Frank Robinson had a hand in re-designing the Hughes 500/OH-6 tail rotor in the late 60s. I've seen the RPM wound down in a low hover, and spot turns in a reasonable wind are still possible.

If you don't want to do the rating, then the only option for 4 seats or more is Jetty or equivalent, and add 200 an hour or so onto the R44 costs. If you've got the money, it's your choice. Personally, I think they're nice beasties.
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Old 8th Feb 2008, 12:22
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
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That was my plan (B) thought to go turbine. As I mentioned I not off the idea, the R44 is (from a glance) a more substantial heli than the R22.

Hmmmmmm, I will ponder further .... Thanks for the info above Nr Fairy
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