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The R22 corner: Owning, flying & training questions

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The R22 corner: Owning, flying & training questions

Old 15th Jan 2008, 23:19
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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K77,

"Datcon" is a brand of hour meter, just as "Hobbs" is a brand of hour meter.

EN48
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Old 15th Jan 2008, 23:38
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Thankyou, its all making sense now, I think!

So in a R22 the DATCON starts to turn over as soon as the engine is switched on?

In a R44 the DATCON starts to turn over when the collective is raised?

So does the flying hours relate to the DATCON?

If so, the minimum PPL(H) 45 'flying hours' in an R44 are ALL flying hours where as in an R22 a portion of the 'flying hours' are whilst still on the ground?

If that is the case, I still don't understand why an R44 might work out cheaper in the long run unless the PPL(H) hours are actually logged whilst in the air meaning that with the R22 you are only getting say 45 minutes for every hour paid in the air, whilst in an R44 you are getting a full 60 minutes in the air.........hence in the long run it may be cheaper?

I hope all of this makes sense and I haven't missed the point?
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Old 16th Jan 2008, 06:03
  #63 (permalink)  
puntosaurus
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You got it !

I would have thought your next question is why on earth is this so difficult ? It comes down to Robinson's purpose in installing the Datcon, which is not to help operators with their billing or pilots with their logbooks, but to keep an indelible track of the engineering life of the machine.

The engineers work this out based on flying hours because that's where the main stresses they worry about occur, rather than loggable or chargable hours which are somewhat subject to the vagaries of legislation and commercial pressure. Therefore the number that goes in the helicopter tech log is the flying time, and hence imho Robinson's change in the 44 range to measure a better proxy for that flying time ie. engine running and collective up.

And yes, in the R44 unless you get the lever all the way down in autorotation (ie solo pilot, minimum weight, or serious updrafts), the Datcon will continue to turn.
 
Old 16th Jan 2008, 08:16
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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The point re the R22 vs R44 for training is simply this. Generally a student will pass his test in less hours in a R44 than a R22. So you may do it in 50 hours in a 44 whereas it may take 60 in a 22. This is from speaking to people who have been taught on both. So it may work out a similar end price, the datacon thing does make a difference but at the end of the day looking at the big picture not that much. I don't own a school but really don't see what the problem is in adding .1 onto the start up and end of the flying session, after all you are using fuel and oil and applying some wear and tear to the machine. I own my own 44 and still fly a 22 an odd time and think they are both great machines. You can also specify a 22 from the factory to have the datacon collective activated!
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Old 16th Jan 2008, 09:34
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by puntosaurus
Therefore the number that goes in the helicopter tech log is the flying time
Not according to Robinson's certification requirements for the R22. RHC mandate that the figure to go in the Maintenance Release (or Tech Log, or its equivalent in other countries) is the engine time, as recorded on the factory installed Datcon. No exceptions, and not flight time.
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Old 16th Jan 2008, 09:52
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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There are also a number of operators who bill you for R22 datcon (ie. engine running time - the datcon is oil pressure activated), but subtract 0.1 from that for the tech log.

The R44 is somewhat easier to fly than the R22, since things happen slower and it's less twitchy. That said, I suspect you'd still have to try quite hard to make doing a PPL in a R44 cost less than in a R22.

As always, the question you should be asking yourself is what you're planning to do once you have a license. If you're going to go buy your own R44, then you might be better off doing the training in the same machine, even though it costs more; if you're wanting to go commercial, say north sea or police, you might as well do the training in whatever's cheapest (unless you can afford to do it in a squirrel or gazelle or something), which generally translates to the R22.
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Old 16th Jan 2008, 09:57
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pandalet
There are also a number of operators who bill you for R22 datcon (ie. engine running time - the datcon is oil pressure activated), but subtract 0.1 from that for the tech log.
In that case there are a number of operators who are running the risk of an unpleasant surprise if caught. Robinson require that the R22 tech log time be logged as engine time, off the Datcon.

The R44 is flight time, but not the R22. As I mentioned, there are no exceptions, it was part of the Certification of the R22.

As pilot filling in the MR/Tech Log, you would also be culpable if you failed to complete the times in accordance with the manufacturer's requirements
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Old 16th Jan 2008, 15:02
  #68 (permalink)  
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John, interesting, but I think you'll find that deals have been struck somewhere along the line, because the Datcon - 0.1 approach is very common over here. Because you came out so strongly I rechecked with two independent maintenance orgs over here, and they confirm this basis.
 
Old 16th Jan 2008, 23:40
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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puntosaurus,

It may be to your own advantage to ask to see the approval/dispensation from CAA in writing, to CYA if you are the pilot signing for the hours flown

The Robinson R22 POH tells you that the time to be logged is the engine time. It would have to be a very strong case to Airworthiness for them to approve what is in effect a 10%+ extension of maintenance hours for the life of the aircraft
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Old 17th Jan 2008, 06:09
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Just read accident spot in Helicopter International

And it might make you not to want to train full autos in Robbies at all.

Got my US consulate in Belfast visa interview in 2 hours.
Man I hate mornings. Better get used to early wake up as that's something I'll get should I get through with all training and instructing in the future.. (hopefully saving like hell and being patient not to waste my precious cash for flying in the UK unless necessary)

I'm going to do my private in R22 in NW of US during summer.
Having read accident spot over past year's worth of HI issues, I can conclude that even though R22 is most commonly used trainer in the US, it's still unacceptable to witness so many F='*d up autorotations (or going wrong the last few metres above ground or right on the ground)

I'll have to make sure if I'm told to do full auto in whatever, that the insurance got me fully covered (heli damage).

I do agree with previous posts that there IS some 'operational envelope' and that would not include ab initio training where people are rougher on controls.
When I'm returning to flying after a year or so after PPL, I'll make sure I'm getting some 'refresher' instruction and not just do SFH because it's cheaper.

I'm getting nervous. I already blew around 300 for all the 'fees and charges' and if I don't get my visa.. Well, I'll have to do with Argentina for summer then. That'll make up for my financial losses, all the gain in my personal life.

Yeah. Pishing like hell. "Why does it always rain on me?" gets new meaning.

Safe flying
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Old 19th Jan 2008, 22:53
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Okay, i'm still trying to get my head around why it might work out cheaper training in an R44 instead of an R22?

In an R22 the Datcom starts when the engine is turned on and that is included in the log book 'flying time' and so is charged from that point?

In an R44 the Datcom starts when the collective is raised yet the 'flying time' that is logged still starts when the engine is switched on but is charged from the raising of the collective?

This then means that in an R44 you log your 'flight time' from the moment the engine is powered up yet you pay from the moment the collective is raised. therefore if it takes 10 minutes before take off to complete checks and get permission from ATC and 10 minutes after landing before shutting the engine down, you are actually getting 1 hour and 20 minutes towards your minimum 45 hours 'flying time' but only paying for 1 hour?

Have I got this right or am I missing something?
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Old 19th Jan 2008, 23:11
  #72 (permalink)  

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In principle, yes. That is why you need to check with any flying school how they charge the time because time invoiced is not necessarily time logged. Plus, there is the anomaly between LASORS and the ANO!

As with so many things, have a chat with your instructor.

However, I am struggling to believe that an R44 PPL would be cheaper than R22 even allowing for datcon readings. An R44 is about 50% more per hour than an R22 so I don't think you'd be saving.

Cheers

Whirls
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Old 20th Jan 2008, 07:40
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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On the start of this thread I hoped that some more enlightened of the Ppruners would be able to make the answer to my posed question quite easy, but now having spent over a week when time allows going through the CAA and now Faa lists Re R22 accidents I am no nearer, but I will persist, I have a little patience left.

MartinCH, Autos must be learnt so you can perform them flawlessly and without having to think, it is a part of Heli flying that YOU MUST become able to perform this action without a second thought, especially in the Robinson Family you have very few seconds to get into this config after all goes quiet, most definate this would be your life saver ( done properly)

Peter R-B
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Old 20th Jan 2008, 17:27
  #74 (permalink)  
manfromuncle
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Every school in the UK I've flown/worked at the student pays/logs on engine time, and the techlog is engine time minus 0.1 (this is supposed to reflect skids off to skids on time).
 
Old 20th Jan 2008, 21:20
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Try a H300

Any vehicle willl take you to the scene of the crash if you misuse it.
However some are more forgiving than others!!
This is even more pronounced with Helicopters.

If possible fly a H300c -older technology but Much more forgiving.
Ive flown lots of hours in both.
If either of my children came to me and asked which one to learn in I would not want to see them in an R22!!
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Old 21st Jan 2008, 15:34
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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MartinCH, Autos must be learnt so you can perform them flawlessly and without having to think, it is a part of Heli flying that YOU MUST become able to perform this action without a second thought, especially in the Robinson Family you have very few seconds to get into this config after all goes quiet, most definate this would be your life saver ( done properly)
If possible fly a H300c -older technology but Much more forgiving.
Ive flown lots of hours in both.
If either of my children came to me and asked which one to learn in I would not want to see them in an R22!!
That's exactly what 'says it all' I have in mind.

I'm not saying I won't have to practise autos in R22. I'm going to sooner or later. It's just that I'd rather do them in S300. Though I understand that due to dif aircraft behaviour I'll have to be 'proficient' in doing R22 autos too.
If I eventually make it to 200-250 TT and FI/CFI papers and a job, I'm likely to teach others to do autos in R22. Be it in the US or UK.

Just that from accident spot I can see that autos training can cause accident itself. Funny (if no injuries) irony is therefore when practising accident prevention /safety procedures for possible future emergency/ and causing real accident. Whether just whacking it bit hard to the ground or having one skid too high due to assymetrical lift or terrain and 'losing' blades when keeling to one side.
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Old 21st Jan 2008, 18:03
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Why to to the ground with autos ?.
If you can recover at 2 meters, you should be able to put it on the ground in case of silent donk.
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Old 22nd Jan 2008, 18:43
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Well as the R22 is the most cost effective, the R22 it is.............better get my Will written!!!!!!
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Old 23rd Jan 2008, 22:16
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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I'm going to check with my flying school as to how they work out their charges with reference to the R22 and R44.

Presumably learning on a Jet Ranger will be cost prohibitive?
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Old 23rd Jan 2008, 22:18
  #80 (permalink)  

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Yes, if you've only budgeted for minimum hours. A Jet Ranger will be in the region of 500 - 600 an hour.

Cheers

Whirls
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