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The R22 corner: Owning, flying & training questions

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The R22 corner: Owning, flying & training questions

Old 13th Jan 2008, 23:42
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Rattle,

Are you suggesting that only flying time is charged for in an R44 but not so in an R22?

Surely a flying school's definition of 1 hours charge should be the same for both types of aircraft?
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Old 13th Jan 2008, 23:48
  #42 (permalink)  

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Yes, he is suggesting that (although not entirely accurately) and no, an hour invoiced is not necessarily an hour's flying.

Some aircraft work on a switch on the collective and others on engine time or rotors running time. These times are important for checking the maintenance scheduling. However, how a school charges is largely up to them! There are Datcon meters, Hobbs meters, all sorts which measure various running times.

However, the time you put in your logbook for training purposes is as defined in LASORS - download your copy now!

Cheers

Whirls
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Old 13th Jan 2008, 23:57
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting, so perhaps he is suggesting that the R22's meter starts running with the rotors and the R44's when it lifts from the ground?

Or do all schools have their own way of 'metering' it!

Suppose its worth me checking though!

As for the minimum 45 hours, this starts when the rotors start I presume, so isn't exactly 45 hours 'flying' time?
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Old 14th Jan 2008, 05:13
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Whirly - does that mean you can hours build doing ground runs?
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Old 14th Jan 2008, 05:48
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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K77

On one of your previous posts you mentioned training with just one instructor.

Personally i had 3 instructors through the majority of my training and one for the last 6 hours or so as i prepared for my test.

Personally this worked well for me as each instructor had a slightly different approach. The communication at my school was excellent, and each time i arrived for a lesson the instructor was fully briefed on my previous flight (s )

Trying to stick with one instructor may also have availability issues.
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Old 14th Jan 2008, 06:25
  #46 (permalink)  

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Whirly - does that mean you can hours build doing ground runs?
That's how LASORS reads to me Crabby! How does it read to you? It is, after all, in a "flyable" condition during ground runs and let's face it, we've all met plank drivers who've done their hour building taxiing around!!

Cheers

Whirls
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Old 14th Jan 2008, 08:37
  #47 (permalink)  
manfromuncle
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From the ANO

For the purposes of this article, a helicopter shall be deemed to be in flight from the moment the helicopter first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the rotors are next stopped.
 
Old 14th Jan 2008, 08:58
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Re above the post..........so does that mean that you are charged similarly?
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Old 14th Jan 2008, 09:02
  #49 (permalink)  

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Not necessarily! It's another important question to ask any school; how they charge the time!

Cheers

Whirls
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Old 14th Jan 2008, 11:00
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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K77

I'll stand corrected on this next comment but i do believe the average hours taken to qualify on the 44 from scratch is less than the 22.

So although its more expensive to learn on - you may need less hours to pass and at then end you wont need the conversion.

Just a thought

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Old 14th Jan 2008, 13:45
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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One of the places I SFH from on the R44 charges 0.1 for start up and another 0.1 for shut down on top of the datcon time. A rip off I know, but its handy to get to.
Another place I fly the 44 just charges on the datcon which for me is far better.
Any other people know of the 0.1 for start up and another 0.1 for shut down?
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Old 14th Jan 2008, 19:35
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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So the R44 may be cheaper in the long run???

Suppose it all depends on the Flying School but surely the same company wouldn't have two different 'time' charges for two different helicopters?
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Old 14th Jan 2008, 19:51
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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New French certified 2 seater

New R22 competitor avialable.

[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 14th Jan 2008, 21:51
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Whirls

Apologies. I stand corrected.

I have only ever been charged datcon time, and as we know, in the 22 this is rotors running time. I could have done my 206 conversion much quicker if I'd known to count engine running time! But I still can't afford to take it off the ground - just start up, listen and shut down. Don't tell the owner!!
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Old 15th Jan 2008, 04:07
  #55 (permalink)  
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Rattle from prev page: It would be interesting to know the Datcon difference between a new trainee in a 22 and a 44. As the 22 time is rotors running, all the time warming up and shutting down is charged for (and counts towards the magic 45). If we plot a 65 hour pass rate, in a 22 the real flying time is considerably less. So although a 44 will cost more per hour, you may pass in "less" hours. Autorotations are free after all in a 44!

Thoughts?
Autorotations in the 44 are only free if you're solo and minimum weight. A 'free' autorotation in any other condition will spoil your day, or possibly cancel it entirely.

We charge Datcon for the 22 and Datcon + 0.1 for the 44. I'd say that marginally favours the 44 because most students take longer than 6mins to start up and shut down.
 
Old 15th Jan 2008, 07:10
  #56 (permalink)  

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Suppose it all depends on the Flying School but surely the same company wouldn't have two different 'time' charges for two different helicopters?
Actually, some do. All the ones I know of charge purely by Datcon time of both machines.

In the R22, as stated, the Datcon starts when you switch the engine on, and stops when you turn it off. In the R44 the Datcon only turns when the collective is raised...so you don't pay while you're warming up, shutting down, or in autorotation.

Adding a little to the R44 charges, like 0.1 hrs at start and finish, is fairly common.

Most people log their flying hours the same as the Datcon hours. Since it's rare to qualify in 45 hours, the possible slight difference in the R22 won't really bother anyone. For the R44, I usually use my watch and log the "real" flying hours.

Hence the R44 is slightly cheaper than it appears, but it'll never cost less than an R22!

However, although this is all very interesting, it's probably the least important question when you're learning to fly. The school's reputation, how well you get on with your instructor, how often you can fly, what books to buy etc etc....these are all far, far more important than whether you save....the price of your next hover-taxi to the fuel bay - and yes, in many places you'll pay for that too.
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Old 15th Jan 2008, 07:50
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Northumbria work on the datcon for R22 and datcon + 0.1 for the R44. Instructor time in the R44 goes off the aircraft clock.
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Old 15th Jan 2008, 17:11
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Whirlygig - I meant it tongue in cheek, the aircraft may be in a flyable condition but it is not moving under its own power for the purposes of taking off. Unfortunately that statement means you could ground taxi a helo with wheels and claim flying time! Sounds barking mad to me.
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Old 15th Jan 2008, 22:08
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Please please excuse my ignorance but what EXACTLY is the meaning of Datcon time?
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Old 15th Jan 2008, 22:11
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Itís been a few years since I flew the R44 but as far as I remember the datcon keeps turning in autorotation.
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