Hours building: Questions, Ideas, Advice, Countries etc
Hovering AND talking
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I recently went to South Africa (Durban) to get some Jet Ranger time. I investigated a number of schools there so if you want any further info, please feel free to PM me.
I was very happy with my choice of school but I don't believe they have a Schweizer.
Cheers
Whirlygig
I was very happy with my choice of school but I don't believe they have a Schweizer.
Cheers
Whirlygig
Hovering AND talking
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I don't want people to think I'm the sort who won't reply to questions asked of me so, TFS, please read your PMs.
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
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There's lots of information about training and hours building in South Africa on this thread.
Link here
It's fixed-wing info, but may be of some general use re obtaining a SA licence etc.
Heliport
Link here
It's fixed-wing info, but may be of some general use re obtaining a SA licence etc.
Heliport
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hour building by cost sharing?????
Hello everyone.
As there has been lots of help in the past towards me whenever I have asked a question on here I thought I would ask another one .
I have an idea of hour building by cost sharing with people.
I am under the impression that as a PPL holder the only time I can take money of people towards the cost of the flight is "an equal share of the cost with the pilot paying a proportionally equal share"
What I would like to do is ;
Advertise cheap helicopter flights , using this cost sharing option.
Will I be breaking any laws if I take up complete strangers and charge them a proportion of the cost of the helicopter hire?
If not, why aren't all low hours pilots (PPLs) doing this because it seems that you could halve the cost of hour building ( in a R22) or even in a R44 you could in theory end up only paying for 1/4 of your hours.
If this is Legal, is there anything I am missing?
Comments welcome.
Thanks Chester
As there has been lots of help in the past towards me whenever I have asked a question on here I thought I would ask another one .
I have an idea of hour building by cost sharing with people.
I am under the impression that as a PPL holder the only time I can take money of people towards the cost of the flight is "an equal share of the cost with the pilot paying a proportionally equal share"
What I would like to do is ;
Advertise cheap helicopter flights , using this cost sharing option.
Will I be breaking any laws if I take up complete strangers and charge them a proportion of the cost of the helicopter hire?
If not, why aren't all low hours pilots (PPLs) doing this because it seems that you could halve the cost of hour building ( in a R22) or even in a R44 you could in theory end up only paying for 1/4 of your hours.
If this is Legal, is there anything I am missing?
Comments welcome.
Thanks Chester
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I would think the only problem with your idea could be that your 'clients' may think they are paying for a full professional helicopter sightseeing tour, whereas you will probably not have the backing of the aircraft operator and insurance may be a problem.
This is only my opinion and I am inexperienced in these matters.
H.
This is only my opinion and I am inexperienced in these matters.
H.
Hovering AND talking
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I'm sure somebody will provide the link to the appropriate paragraph in LASORS but, to be perfectly frank, you should have covered it in your PPL ground exams (I know I did) but, YES, it is illegal.
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
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quote:
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4. Costs. Is the seat free, or do you expect the passenger to pay the landing fee, buy lunch, or share all costs.
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Would exercise caution when advertising spare seats like this, see Art 130 of ANO, esp : no information concerning the flight shall have been published or advertised prior to the commencement of the flight other than, in the case of an aircraft operated by a flying club, advertising wholly within the premises of such a flying club in which case all the persons carried on such a flight who are aged 18 years or over shall be members of that flying club.
I just found this on another forum, I'm not sure if it is applicable.
H.
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4. Costs. Is the seat free, or do you expect the passenger to pay the landing fee, buy lunch, or share all costs.
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Would exercise caution when advertising spare seats like this, see Art 130 of ANO, esp : no information concerning the flight shall have been published or advertised prior to the commencement of the flight other than, in the case of an aircraft operated by a flying club, advertising wholly within the premises of such a flying club in which case all the persons carried on such a flight who are aged 18 years or over shall be members of that flying club.
I just found this on another forum, I'm not sure if it is applicable.
H.
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Hi, making non-known persons pay for travelling in an aircraft where the pilot only holds a PPL is illegal. Pure and simple ..
This is taken from the Danish CAA brochure concerning this issue - translated freely into English:
".. Private pilots are not allowed to fly with paying passangers.
If the passengers are close friends or close familymembers to the pilot, it is allowed to share the expenses that is directly connected to the actual flight, like expenses for fuel, rent of aircraft .."
Now, you have to define "close friends" and "close familymembers", but I'm sure that a person who wants to fly with you, that you just met 5 minutes ago is no "close friend" ..
I'm sure other CAA's have similary policies ..
This is taken from the Danish CAA brochure concerning this issue - translated freely into English:
".. Private pilots are not allowed to fly with paying passangers.
If the passengers are close friends or close familymembers to the pilot, it is allowed to share the expenses that is directly connected to the actual flight, like expenses for fuel, rent of aircraft .."
Now, you have to define "close friends" and "close familymembers", but I'm sure that a person who wants to fly with you, that you just met 5 minutes ago is no "close friend" ..
I'm sure other CAA's have similary policies ..
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Ouch Whirlygig. That's a bit harsh. 
Chester
There's nothing to stop PPLs hours building by cost-sharing, provided they comply with the law. The cost sharing provisions are in Article 130 (8) of the ANO.
Cost sharing is permitted as an exception to the normal rules about "valuable consideration" but there are conditions which apply if you are going to avail yourself of the exception.
Advertising in the manner you appear to have in mind is not permitted. However, restricted advertising is.
Hemac has already posted the provision relating to advertising.
It comes from Article 130 (8 ) (a) (ii) (cc):
"No information concerning the flight shall have been published or advertised prior to the commencement of the flight other than, in the case of an aircraft operated by a flying club, advertising wholly within the premises of such a flying club in which case all the persons carried on such a flight who are aged 18 years or over shall be members of that flying club."
People commonly believe that all occupants of the aircraft must pay their proportion of the cost. That isn't so. The pilot must pay at least his/her proportion. The balance can be divided between the passengers in any proportion they wish.
There is no requirement in the UK that passengers must be "close friends" or "close family members".
madman1145
Do those words appear in the Danish law?
Privately owned aircraft:
The provision about the contribution to cost which may be accepted by owner-pilots is far more restrictive than that which applies to rented aircraft. There doesn't seem to be any logic in the distinction. I've always assumed it's because it would be too difficult to determine the actual cost per hour of flying the aircraft.
Chester
There's nothing to stop PPLs hours building by cost-sharing, provided they comply with the law. The cost sharing provisions are in Article 130 (8) of the ANO.
Cost sharing is permitted as an exception to the normal rules about "valuable consideration" but there are conditions which apply if you are going to avail yourself of the exception.
Advertising in the manner you appear to have in mind is not permitted. However, restricted advertising is.
Hemac has already posted the provision relating to advertising.
It comes from Article 130 (8 ) (a) (ii) (cc):
"No information concerning the flight shall have been published or advertised prior to the commencement of the flight other than, in the case of an aircraft operated by a flying club, advertising wholly within the premises of such a flying club in which case all the persons carried on such a flight who are aged 18 years or over shall be members of that flying club."
People commonly believe that all occupants of the aircraft must pay their proportion of the cost. That isn't so. The pilot must pay at least his/her proportion. The balance can be divided between the passengers in any proportion they wish.
There is no requirement in the UK that passengers must be "close friends" or "close family members".
madman1145
Do those words appear in the Danish law?
Privately owned aircraft:
The provision about the contribution to cost which may be accepted by owner-pilots is far more restrictive than that which applies to rented aircraft. There doesn't seem to be any logic in the distinction. I've always assumed it's because it would be too difficult to determine the actual cost per hour of flying the aircraft.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 26th Jul 2005 at 23:10.
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Flying Lawyer
Thank you I was starting to get a little worried after Whirlys comments!!!!.
I have scoured Lasors and could not find any restriction about cost sharing with a PPL.
I certainly did not cover it in PPL exams and have not encountered it yet in my ATPL ground school ( but I might do by the time I have finished)
So in a nutshell I can't advertise but can I offer cost shared flights to people?
Thanks again
Chester
Thank you I was starting to get a little worried after Whirlys comments!!!!.
I have scoured Lasors and could not find any restriction about cost sharing with a PPL.
I certainly did not cover it in PPL exams and have not encountered it yet in my ATPL ground school ( but I might do by the time I have finished)
So in a nutshell I can't advertise but can I offer cost shared flights to people?
Thanks again
Chester
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Chester
Your nutshell isn't quite right. You can advertise, but only within a flying club and on the other conditions mentioned.
Whirlygig is a charming lady. We all have grumpy moods now and again.
Your nutshell isn't quite right. You can advertise, but only within a flying club and on the other conditions mentioned.
Whirlygig is a charming lady. We all have grumpy moods now and again.
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I've always found Whirls to be charming on here. I've re-read her post here and I thought she was rather informative and cheerful.
Or maybe it's that she just makes me gush.
Or maybe it's that she just makes me gush.
Hovering AND talking
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Sorry if I came across grumpy but I still can't believe you didn't cover this at PPL. Perhaps you didn't use the Trevor Thom books because, having just referred to my mate Trev chapter 10, he also tells me that no more than four persons must be carried and that the pilot must not be employed by the operator in addition to the advertising rule.
If you go round all your friends and family and put it to them as a proposition, then it does help to defray the cost of hour building.
The only problem with the "flying club thing", is that, because there are so fewer helicopter pilots, there is less chance that people will take you up on your offer since all the members of any heli-school's club, can already fly themselves and, no doubt would also want to log PiC time!
Cheers
Whirls
If you go round all your friends and family and put it to them as a proposition, then it does help to defray the cost of hour building.
The only problem with the "flying club thing", is that, because there are so fewer helicopter pilots, there is less chance that people will take you up on your offer since all the members of any heli-school's club, can already fly themselves and, no doubt would also want to log PiC time!
Cheers
Whirls
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How dare you use the 'F' word on here !! Go and Boatpix yourself at $100 an hour. Was supposed to do in Rhode Island weekend just gone but am too fat to get in the Robbo !
TFS
The FAT Squirrel
TFS
The FAT Squirrel
Last edited by TheFlyingSquirrel; 16th Sep 2005 at 04:39.
The Original Whirly
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1) Cost share with other PPLs or passengers
2) Ask schools if you can do positioning flights - for maintenance or whatever.
3) Boatpix - as mentioned by Squirrel
4) Fly B206 in LA doing Traffic Watch - around $130/hour, though that may be out of date by now.
5) Go to South Africa, New Zealand, or anywhere else with cheaper flying and a good exchange rate for the £.
That's all I can think of for now.
2) Ask schools if you can do positioning flights - for maintenance or whatever.
3) Boatpix - as mentioned by Squirrel
4) Fly B206 in LA doing Traffic Watch - around $130/hour, though that may be out of date by now.
5) Go to South Africa, New Zealand, or anywhere else with cheaper flying and a good exchange rate for the £.
That's all I can think of for now.