Fixed-wing or Rotary career? (incl Changing licence to Rotary)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DWTR,
Luckily I was only 22 (or there abouts) when I was in your quandry. I knew aviation was what I wanted, and it was going to cost me, so I buried my head in a far east country for four years to save all the tax free money I could.
When I was done, I had the decision to make, Cessna or Robbie. Funny thing was, in my youth I never looked up when a Cessna flew by. Being from an agricultural background, a machine had to have a purpose, it had to lift drag, bale, plough.......I digress!!,
I snuck into the US of A and spent my money on the best 10 months of my life. Many of those who thought me, and learned with me are long gone from this industry. I stayed with it, and embedded myself fairly deeply in it knowing the same energy expended in the "planks" would see me retired a lot younger.
I will never be as accomphlised as most of those posting on this board, but I will never supp on a pint a Guinness at Slane Castle looking at the 109s coming in and wonder....what if.
In short DWTR, the fact that you posted here, means you already know what you want to do.
Luckily I was only 22 (or there abouts) when I was in your quandry. I knew aviation was what I wanted, and it was going to cost me, so I buried my head in a far east country for four years to save all the tax free money I could.
When I was done, I had the decision to make, Cessna or Robbie. Funny thing was, in my youth I never looked up when a Cessna flew by. Being from an agricultural background, a machine had to have a purpose, it had to lift drag, bale, plough.......I digress!!,
I snuck into the US of A and spent my money on the best 10 months of my life. Many of those who thought me, and learned with me are long gone from this industry. I stayed with it, and embedded myself fairly deeply in it knowing the same energy expended in the "planks" would see me retired a lot younger.
I will never be as accomphlised as most of those posting on this board, but I will never supp on a pint a Guinness at Slane Castle looking at the 109s coming in and wonder....what if.
In short DWTR, the fact that you posted here, means you already know what you want to do.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is nothing more fun than flying a helicopter! I'm about your age, and started flying last year... best decision of my life. I tried fixed-wing, but it was very boring and you really can't see as much from the cockpit of a Cessna. Sitting in the bubble of a helicopter if very liberating. In my opinion...
If it is for recreation (& some business) - helicopter.
If it is for travel (point A to B) - fixed wing.
Try both and see what you like best. Helicopters are definately more expensive, but you will discover why they are worth it.
If it is for recreation (& some business) - helicopter.
If it is for travel (point A to B) - fixed wing.
Try both and see what you like best. Helicopters are definately more expensive, but you will discover why they are worth it.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Invercargill, New Zealand
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i have got a cpl(h) and ppl(a). i have done the plank thing to reduce the cost of a instrument rating and it is quicker and cheaper to travel. i would rather spend one day a week in a helicopter than a week in a plank. i say do the one you feel is best. some poor souls enjoy flying planks!
helipilotnz
helipilotnz
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think you have to go into this with your eyes open, and think about what is really important to you. The helicopter industry, at least in this country, is probably as unreliable as people are telling you. But from what I gather, f/w isn't much better...the fallout from 9/11 is still affecting the industry more than anyone would like. Will things change? My crystal ball is as unreliable as anyone else's.
Flying for fun, especially if you have a well paid job, is probably the sensible option. But you say you always wanted to fly for a living. OK, do you want to risk ending up broke and with no sensible means of support? On the other hand, do you want to risk being old, reasonably well-off, but looking back and saying what someone once said were the two saddest words in the English language: "If only..." When I was considering a CPL(H) an old guy in his 70s who'd been around (everything I mention, he's done) told me to go for it: "You never regret the things in life you HAVE done, only those you haven't".
You may have another option. Start flying, don't borrow any money, make sure you can get back into whatever job/career you have, or keep doing it parttime, getting qualifications slowly. That way, you may not be burning all your boats. You may also be able to do something in aviation, f/w or rotary, part time, perhaps combining the best of both worlds...OK, I'm biased on that one.
There are a lot of possibilities if you keep your eyes open. But...er...getting rich probably isn't one of them!
Flying for fun, especially if you have a well paid job, is probably the sensible option. But you say you always wanted to fly for a living. OK, do you want to risk ending up broke and with no sensible means of support? On the other hand, do you want to risk being old, reasonably well-off, but looking back and saying what someone once said were the two saddest words in the English language: "If only..." When I was considering a CPL(H) an old guy in his 70s who'd been around (everything I mention, he's done) told me to go for it: "You never regret the things in life you HAVE done, only those you haven't".
You may have another option. Start flying, don't borrow any money, make sure you can get back into whatever job/career you have, or keep doing it parttime, getting qualifications slowly. That way, you may not be burning all your boats. You may also be able to do something in aviation, f/w or rotary, part time, perhaps combining the best of both worlds...OK, I'm biased on that one.
There are a lot of possibilities if you keep your eyes open. But...er...getting rich probably isn't one of them!
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Any further pearls of wisdom?
Cheers guys (n gals...?)
I do have question for all the career aviators who have generously responded to my request, are you presently employed, despite the 9/11 aftermath have you ever been out of work for long periods of time? Do you find yourself having to travel all over the world to get contract work in deserts and offshore facilities?
Basically if you are not law enforcement, ems, mil or fi what are you doing in a helicopter to pay the bills and feed the kids ?
I do have question for all the career aviators who have generously responded to my request, are you presently employed, despite the 9/11 aftermath have you ever been out of work for long periods of time? Do you find yourself having to travel all over the world to get contract work in deserts and offshore facilities?
Basically if you are not law enforcement, ems, mil or fi what are you doing in a helicopter to pay the bills and feed the kids ?
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: 3 Degrees North
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Downwind to roll
Whirly Bird already answered your questions. The helo industry is one of the toughest side of Aviation to be in. Be prepared to be poor for a long time, and experience some testing time in your life, including relationships. Yes some of us did succeed, and do enjoy it now, but it comes at a price.
It is a lot easier and enjoyable to fly privately, when and how you feel like it. You gave me the impression to have a very good non flying job, so stick to it. It will save you a lot of trouble in the long run.
Yes I am employed, albeit took 5 years and almost spent the equivalent of 80,000 UK pounds to get there, and a lot of moving around.
Whirly Bird already answered your questions. The helo industry is one of the toughest side of Aviation to be in. Be prepared to be poor for a long time, and experience some testing time in your life, including relationships. Yes some of us did succeed, and do enjoy it now, but it comes at a price.
It is a lot easier and enjoyable to fly privately, when and how you feel like it. You gave me the impression to have a very good non flying job, so stick to it. It will save you a lot of trouble in the long run.
Yes I am employed, albeit took 5 years and almost spent the equivalent of 80,000 UK pounds to get there, and a lot of moving around.
HeliFirst
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Lincoln & Norwich
Posts: 225
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let's not start knocking planks plse!!
D/W to R
I was a Contract Airline Captain and its great travelling in comfort and be so well looked after.
I always felt I 'operated' a plank whilst I 'Flew' a helicopter.
Money was good too but Sep !! ended that for alot of us!!
I never gave up helicopter flying whilst flying planks. I just couldn't. I always kept a foot in each camp and wish I could still do both but I'd rather have lost the planks than loose flying Helicopters. I'm very lucky to be helicopter instructor too so I'm still flying now.
D/W to R
I was a Contract Airline Captain and its great travelling in comfort and be so well looked after.
I always felt I 'operated' a plank whilst I 'Flew' a helicopter.
Money was good too but Sep !! ended that for alot of us!!
I never gave up helicopter flying whilst flying planks. I just couldn't. I always kept a foot in each camp and wish I could still do both but I'd rather have lost the planks than loose flying Helicopters. I'm very lucky to be helicopter instructor too so I'm still flying now.
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the other hand...
The day I got my PPL(H) I realised that I couldn't afford to fly helicopters very often for ever. But I probably could for a couple of years or so. I thought that I could either fly them and have fun but nothing to show for it, or fly them AND do all the exams and courses and so on, and maybe, just maybe, get paid to fly at the end of it. So I decided to try for a CPL(H) and FI rating.
It wasn't quite that straightforward. The hourbuilding was lots of fun. The CPL(H) ground exams were hell. The CPL flying was fine. The FI course was hell - but taught me more about flying than I'd ever learned before, and I'll always be glad I did it. Work? Well, a little, and it's early days as yet. But it's lucky I don't have to live off it!! OTOH, I refuse to relocate, emigrate, or any of the things that might well get me a flying job if I was desperate. For me, I think I made the right decision. But that's me, not anyone else.
I too always kept a foot in either camp, and occasionally fly f/w to go to fly-ins or on holiday or just bore holes in the sky cheaply. It's fun, and affordable, but I'll always prefer helicopters. Personally I think being an airline pilot would be boring. But everyone's different.
So like I said, you do have choices, but go into it with your eyes open..and there are no guarantees, good or bad.
It wasn't quite that straightforward. The hourbuilding was lots of fun. The CPL(H) ground exams were hell. The CPL flying was fine. The FI course was hell - but taught me more about flying than I'd ever learned before, and I'll always be glad I did it. Work? Well, a little, and it's early days as yet. But it's lucky I don't have to live off it!! OTOH, I refuse to relocate, emigrate, or any of the things that might well get me a flying job if I was desperate. For me, I think I made the right decision. But that's me, not anyone else.
I too always kept a foot in either camp, and occasionally fly f/w to go to fly-ins or on holiday or just bore holes in the sky cheaply. It's fun, and affordable, but I'll always prefer helicopters. Personally I think being an airline pilot would be boring. But everyone's different.
So like I said, you do have choices, but go into it with your eyes open..and there are no guarantees, good or bad.
I'll get me coat......
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
Age: 51
Posts: 532
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DW to R,
I started flying when I was 25 for one simple reason. I realised one day that if I didn't do it soon I may never have the opportunity in the future and as Whirlybird said already, I didn't want to look back and say "What if?".
Many of my mates were buying cars for about the same amount of money that I spent on my licence. It is a lot of money, but it's only money. I was 'lucky' enough to score a job straight out of my licence with 120 hours, flying B206's and H500's. That was five years ago. If it all turns to custard tomorrow I'll move on to another company or I'll do something else.
As has been said several times already I wouldn't be thinking too much about the money you will earn at this stage, do it because you want to and I'm sure you know what you really want to fly!
Cheers,
Hollywood.
I started flying when I was 25 for one simple reason. I realised one day that if I didn't do it soon I may never have the opportunity in the future and as Whirlybird said already, I didn't want to look back and say "What if?".
Many of my mates were buying cars for about the same amount of money that I spent on my licence. It is a lot of money, but it's only money. I was 'lucky' enough to score a job straight out of my licence with 120 hours, flying B206's and H500's. That was five years ago. If it all turns to custard tomorrow I'll move on to another company or I'll do something else.
As has been said several times already I wouldn't be thinking too much about the money you will earn at this stage, do it because you want to and I'm sure you know what you really want to fly!
Cheers,
Hollywood.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Oz. Mahgni
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DW2R
Keep your day job!
Buy yourself a Pitts if escape from boredom is your motivation.
Helicopters start where the roads end.
By the time you have 50 hrs the initial thrill is history, (bit like a new girl friend)
Keep your day job!
Buy yourself a Pitts if escape from boredom is your motivation.
Helicopters start where the roads end.
By the time you have 50 hrs the initial thrill is history, (bit like a new girl friend)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Age: 63
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It looks like you are looking to create a job that you'll enjoy and that will produce enough cash to at least maintain your current lifestyle.
If I am correct, you can answer the question yourself, granted I've never flown in UK and my point of view is limited to the USA.
Option 1: Spend a LOT of money in training, work years as a flight instructor on $ 800/ 1200 a month, then if you are lucky get a turbine helo flying job, where very likely you'll sweat profusely during summer time (most of the helos do NOT have A/C), work in remote areas, skip meals,sleep in trailers with men, spend long period of times without seeing your family, be considered an aviation blue collar and get a salary that is at the bottom of the Aviation Cash Bucket.
Option2: Spend considerably LESS money for training, possibly get in with the airlines (ab initio) or do the instructor thing and then fly corporate, eather way:
Fly state air conditioned state of the art equipment, in and out of big cities or exotic places, be served food and coffee even while you are flying from a beautiful girl, sleep in first class hotels with the flight attendants, usually on the job for 3/4 days, then home for the equal amount, be considered a true aviation professional, get a salary that no helicopter pilot would ever dream of.
Hope this helps!
If I am correct, you can answer the question yourself, granted I've never flown in UK and my point of view is limited to the USA.
Option 1: Spend a LOT of money in training, work years as a flight instructor on $ 800/ 1200 a month, then if you are lucky get a turbine helo flying job, where very likely you'll sweat profusely during summer time (most of the helos do NOT have A/C), work in remote areas, skip meals,sleep in trailers with men, spend long period of times without seeing your family, be considered an aviation blue collar and get a salary that is at the bottom of the Aviation Cash Bucket.
Option2: Spend considerably LESS money for training, possibly get in with the airlines (ab initio) or do the instructor thing and then fly corporate, eather way:
Fly state air conditioned state of the art equipment, in and out of big cities or exotic places, be served food and coffee even while you are flying from a beautiful girl, sleep in first class hotels with the flight attendants, usually on the job for 3/4 days, then home for the equal amount, be considered a true aviation professional, get a salary that no helicopter pilot would ever dream of.
Hope this helps!
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think I get the message...
aquila105 - That kind of puts it into perspective quite nicely, thanks everyone for all your comments...
So from all the comments (and private messages) I have received on this sibject I can summise that essentially ;
"helos are much more fun but dont pay $hit"
CONS:
> It costs more for training
> The jobs are fewer
> The end salary is lower
> Most work is contract rather than building a career with a good company
> You have to travel a lot to fly helo contracts
PROS:
> They are more versatile and fun to fly, you fly it rather then operate it
> The work is likely to be more varied given the differing tasks that a helo can perform
> You travel a lot flying helo contracts
Did I miss anything or is that about the size of it ?
Thanks again
DTR
So from all the comments (and private messages) I have received on this sibject I can summise that essentially ;
"helos are much more fun but dont pay $hit"
CONS:
> It costs more for training
> The jobs are fewer
> The end salary is lower
> Most work is contract rather than building a career with a good company
> You have to travel a lot to fly helo contracts
PROS:
> They are more versatile and fun to fly, you fly it rather then operate it
> The work is likely to be more varied given the differing tasks that a helo can perform
> You travel a lot flying helo contracts
Did I miss anything or is that about the size of it ?
Thanks again
DTR
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Since I'm a middle-aged white collar worker with a family and mortgage, I've kept things in a similar perspective as the folks above. I didn't get into aviation on the ground floor or at an early age, but I've definately been bitten by the rotor bug. For me, my aspirations are limited to becoming a part-time instructor. I love to teach, and I love to fly.
Take your current income + savings, subtract the investment required to become a professional pilot, subtract the average salary that you might receive as an instructor when starting. Calculate this for 2-3 years. Then, figure a gradual increase in salary and benefits as you get into the professional helicopter pilot workplace (over time). Oh, don't forget to factor in a fall-back plan in case you experience a serious illness or eye injury that might end your flying career.
Now, you can't completely base a life decision on the numbers alone - but you might be able to balance the two options. Chances are good that the reflected change in your standard of living using this crude Cost Benefit Analysis would decrease (with no guarantee of return on investment). You might be able to fly recreationally, keep your day job, and live in both worlds (as I do). I would give my left testicle to fly professionally, but I don't have the skills and even if I did - I probably couldn't afford to.
I know a pilot that works in Longbeach, NY (near Hamptons) and makes $93,000 a year (flying cop). Having said that, it doesn't come close to the cost of living in that area and salaries that high are very rare indeed.
Take your current income + savings, subtract the investment required to become a professional pilot, subtract the average salary that you might receive as an instructor when starting. Calculate this for 2-3 years. Then, figure a gradual increase in salary and benefits as you get into the professional helicopter pilot workplace (over time). Oh, don't forget to factor in a fall-back plan in case you experience a serious illness or eye injury that might end your flying career.
Now, you can't completely base a life decision on the numbers alone - but you might be able to balance the two options. Chances are good that the reflected change in your standard of living using this crude Cost Benefit Analysis would decrease (with no guarantee of return on investment). You might be able to fly recreationally, keep your day job, and live in both worlds (as I do). I would give my left testicle to fly professionally, but I don't have the skills and even if I did - I probably couldn't afford to.
I know a pilot that works in Longbeach, NY (near Hamptons) and makes $93,000 a year (flying cop). Having said that, it doesn't come close to the cost of living in that area and salaries that high are very rare indeed.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middle East
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've earned my living for 25 years now, flying helicopters. My mates are now 747 Qantas captain, having problems balancing on their wallets and I'm in some god forsaken part of the world putting up with yet another "interesting" employer. Personally I think it's a lousy industry and I'd advise anyone whose interested to sets their sights on the airline industry. And with the fat wallet you can fly helos on your days off :-)
Cheers
Cheers
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ireland
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For what its worth I'll throw in my two pence worth.!!
I think like most things in life you have to begin with the end in mind. The best way to find out what the end is like is exactly this here...asking those employed in the industry and see what they have to say.
I am now employed as a SAR pilot in Ireland with a a large operator and have to say that I absolutely love my job. The flying is great, the money is good enough and an awful lot better than ninety nine percent of my school mates. The schedule is grand too with plenty time off jet lag free. Flying SAR can on occassion be a wee bit hairy but overall I dont think its more risky flying 200hrs on SAR or flying 600 in the North sea... and a lot less boring.!!! Even guys who fly cushy ailrline long haul flights with minimal turnarounds can ruin their career with a simple screwup.
I dont think that an airline career is always fun and games. For every one guy flying 747s long haul as a well paid P1 there are dozens flying huge numbers of sectors on much lower money and generally bored to tears. While the long haul stuff is appealling, many friends have said that the effects of jet lag and time changes really has a negative effect on the way their bodies feel a lot of the time... that it is a serious price.
Anyway thats my view. I know that lots of helo jobs are crap... I have worked quite a few but if you are prepared to give it a go and make the sacrifices to get where you want it certainly can be great. Good luck to you.
I think like most things in life you have to begin with the end in mind. The best way to find out what the end is like is exactly this here...asking those employed in the industry and see what they have to say.
I am now employed as a SAR pilot in Ireland with a a large operator and have to say that I absolutely love my job. The flying is great, the money is good enough and an awful lot better than ninety nine percent of my school mates. The schedule is grand too with plenty time off jet lag free. Flying SAR can on occassion be a wee bit hairy but overall I dont think its more risky flying 200hrs on SAR or flying 600 in the North sea... and a lot less boring.!!! Even guys who fly cushy ailrline long haul flights with minimal turnarounds can ruin their career with a simple screwup.
I dont think that an airline career is always fun and games. For every one guy flying 747s long haul as a well paid P1 there are dozens flying huge numbers of sectors on much lower money and generally bored to tears. While the long haul stuff is appealling, many friends have said that the effects of jet lag and time changes really has a negative effect on the way their bodies feel a lot of the time... that it is a serious price.
Anyway thats my view. I know that lots of helo jobs are crap... I have worked quite a few but if you are prepared to give it a go and make the sacrifices to get where you want it certainly can be great. Good luck to you.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Surrey
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Plank to rotary - what was it like for you?
I am starting my PPLH next week.
I am an ATPL with 9000+ fixed wing. 4000 GA and the rest current airline 737/A320. Not looking to give up the fixed wing career just looking forward to getting a new experience in aviation.
The CAA graciously say that I only have to do about a third of the full course.
Just wondering if anyone out there has done the same thing and what you can tell me to help me on my way.
What am I liklely to struggle with during the training. Hovering? Auto rotations? I haven't a clue yet!
got any tips?
TA
I am an ATPL with 9000+ fixed wing. 4000 GA and the rest current airline 737/A320. Not looking to give up the fixed wing career just looking forward to getting a new experience in aviation.
The CAA graciously say that I only have to do about a third of the full course.
Just wondering if anyone out there has done the same thing and what you can tell me to help me on my way.
What am I liklely to struggle with during the training. Hovering? Auto rotations? I haven't a clue yet!
got any tips?
TA
Join Date: May 2001
Location: London
Posts: 528
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA 73 driver I know recently went the same road. Solo in seven hours, rattled through the course in no time.
Major differences - your hands are full all the time.
If you push the nose down when the engine fails, you're a dead man. (Or woman.)
You're going to love it.
I know a BA 74 FO who teaches on the R22 at Redhill. Send me a PM and I'll give you his phone number.
Major differences - your hands are full all the time.
If you push the nose down when the engine fails, you're a dead man. (Or woman.)
You're going to love it.
I know a BA 74 FO who teaches on the R22 at Redhill. Send me a PM and I'll give you his phone number.
A "student" came to me to convert his PPLH to CPLH. He already had 20,000 hrs 747, owned his own H500, had a PPLH and 700 chopper hours. But the H500 was in a different country (same place he did his flying) so he had to learn in a Robbie.
He was tragic - couldn't cope with the skittish machine compared to the H500. Eventually we made it to the nav phase, and here he fell completely on his @ss. He could not fly with one hand, read a map, make a decision and make a radio call at the same time. He was so used to telling somebody else to do it and then watching them do it, that his basic skills were gone.
At my suggestion that he remain a private pilot and forget his commercial aspirations, he gave up, sold his H500, and went back to being a casual 747 driver - and soon after landed one wheels-up!!!
Time to retire...
He was tragic - couldn't cope with the skittish machine compared to the H500. Eventually we made it to the nav phase, and here he fell completely on his @ss. He could not fly with one hand, read a map, make a decision and make a radio call at the same time. He was so used to telling somebody else to do it and then watching them do it, that his basic skills were gone.
At my suggestion that he remain a private pilot and forget his commercial aspirations, he gave up, sold his H500, and went back to being a casual 747 driver - and soon after landed one wheels-up!!!
Time to retire...
One thing I think you'll have a problem with is _not_ pulling back just as you're about to touch down in auto or running landings. The old fixed wing hind-brain will automatically kick in to "land on the mains" first. It's an urge you're going to have to fight if you want to keep the tailboom in its rightful relationship with the rest of the aircraft.
Plus, as t'aint and Ascend mentioned above, not having a third or fourth hand available for map folding, note taking, transponder/frequency setting, etc will come as a hell of a shock.
Plus, as t'aint and Ascend mentioned above, not having a third or fourth hand available for map folding, note taking, transponder/frequency setting, etc will come as a hell of a shock.