Fixed-wing or Rotary career? (incl Changing licence to Rotary)
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belly tank
There's a selection of threads here which might help:
Training and Job Prospects FAQ
Heliport
There's a selection of threads here which might help:
Training and Job Prospects FAQ
Heliport
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Fixed wing driver looking for a little advice
Hi
Ive recently passed my fixed wing ppl, and quite fancy going into helicopters at some point (wallet allowing). Can somebody give me a no bs assessment of what helicopter flying is like? I had a trial lesson which i thought was great, but it seems to me that when you take the controls yourself, the fun goes out of it as youre concentrating so hard keeping the bloody thing in the air. Also, what about safety? Most of my fixed wing friends have warned me away from those "egg whisks" saying there too dangerous; how dangerous exactly? How many hours can i get knocked off the ppl h course with my ppl a (gotta watch the pennies in my case)? And is there such a thing as affordable chopper flying? I say this because looking at a price list, i can get 3 pa28 hours for one r22 hour. Would appreciate some help please.
Cheers
Eoin Carey
Ive recently passed my fixed wing ppl, and quite fancy going into helicopters at some point (wallet allowing). Can somebody give me a no bs assessment of what helicopter flying is like? I had a trial lesson which i thought was great, but it seems to me that when you take the controls yourself, the fun goes out of it as youre concentrating so hard keeping the bloody thing in the air. Also, what about safety? Most of my fixed wing friends have warned me away from those "egg whisks" saying there too dangerous; how dangerous exactly? How many hours can i get knocked off the ppl h course with my ppl a (gotta watch the pennies in my case)? And is there such a thing as affordable chopper flying? I say this because looking at a price list, i can get 3 pa28 hours for one r22 hour. Would appreciate some help please.
Cheers
Eoin Carey
Hovering AND talking
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I'll try and answer this but, as I've never flown a fixed-wing thingy, there might some folk out there who could give you a better perspective.
Oh yes. You have to concentrate at all times. However, what you are concentrating on varies! I understand it is a lot harder on the whole to fly but, as you already have a PPL(A), you will be familiar with some aerodynamic characteristics, navigation and you'll be used to dealing with the radio. What you won't be used to is not taking your hands off the controls and having to memorize your read-backs to Air Traffic!
In the UK, you'll get 6 hours credit for having a PPL(A) but, be warned, very few people get through in the minimum hours.
Lastly, helicopters are not dangerous. Safety is paramount and that you will be taught. I've heard it argued that you are better off in a single-engined helicopter than single-engine aeroplane if the engine fails.
BUT....
Why helicopter pilots are different
Helicopters are different from aeroplanes.
An aeroplane, by its nature, wants to fly and. If not interfered with too strongly by unusual events or a deliberately incompetent pilot, it will fly.
A helicopter does not want to fly.
It is maintained in the air by a variety of forces and controls working in opposition to each other and, if there is any disturbance in this delicate balance, the helicopter stops flying; immediately and distrastrously.
This is why being a helicopter pilot is so different from being an aeroplane pilot and why, in generality, aeroplane pilots are open, clear-eyed, buoyant extroverts and helicopter pilots are brooding, introspective anticipators of trouble.
They know that if something bad has not happened, it is about to.
Cheers
Whirlygig
Oh yes. You have to concentrate at all times. However, what you are concentrating on varies! I understand it is a lot harder on the whole to fly but, as you already have a PPL(A), you will be familiar with some aerodynamic characteristics, navigation and you'll be used to dealing with the radio. What you won't be used to is not taking your hands off the controls and having to memorize your read-backs to Air Traffic!
In the UK, you'll get 6 hours credit for having a PPL(A) but, be warned, very few people get through in the minimum hours.
Lastly, helicopters are not dangerous. Safety is paramount and that you will be taught. I've heard it argued that you are better off in a single-engined helicopter than single-engine aeroplane if the engine fails.
BUT....
Why helicopter pilots are different
Helicopters are different from aeroplanes.
An aeroplane, by its nature, wants to fly and. If not interfered with too strongly by unusual events or a deliberately incompetent pilot, it will fly.
A helicopter does not want to fly.
It is maintained in the air by a variety of forces and controls working in opposition to each other and, if there is any disturbance in this delicate balance, the helicopter stops flying; immediately and distrastrously.
This is why being a helicopter pilot is so different from being an aeroplane pilot and why, in generality, aeroplane pilots are open, clear-eyed, buoyant extroverts and helicopter pilots are brooding, introspective anticipators of trouble.
They know that if something bad has not happened, it is about to.
Cheers
Whirlygig
The Original Whirly
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I fly both f/w and rotary, so can maybe add a little to what my good friend Whirlygig said. Helicopter flying is not really more difficult, just different. If you like hands-on flying, and having to actually fly the aircraft all the time, you'll like helicopters. If you prefer to take off, trim it out, look at the view, re-fold your map, and have a bit of a break till you land, then stick to fixed wing.
Concerning safety, a lot of rubbish is talked by some f/'w pilots about helicopters. If you have engine failure in a f/w aircraft, you have more time, but you need to find a decent field. In a helicopter, you have less time to establish autorotation, but all you need is a flat area to land on. Swings and roundabouts really.
Yes, helicopter flying is more expensive. But I would have said about double, not three times as much. And remember, you don't need to waste time - and money - taxiing etc in a helicopter; as soon as you lift into the hover, you're flying, and having fun. And you spend much less time doing circuits and landing too. So it's not as much more expensive as it appears.
Your choice really. But if you decide to fly both, be careful while you're learning; I found it confusing for a while. Once you've learned, they seem to sort themselves out OK.
Concerning safety, a lot of rubbish is talked by some f/'w pilots about helicopters. If you have engine failure in a f/w aircraft, you have more time, but you need to find a decent field. In a helicopter, you have less time to establish autorotation, but all you need is a flat area to land on. Swings and roundabouts really.
Yes, helicopter flying is more expensive. But I would have said about double, not three times as much. And remember, you don't need to waste time - and money - taxiing etc in a helicopter; as soon as you lift into the hover, you're flying, and having fun. And you spend much less time doing circuits and landing too. So it's not as much more expensive as it appears.
Your choice really. But if you decide to fly both, be careful while you're learning; I found it confusing for a while. Once you've learned, they seem to sort themselves out OK.
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Thanks for all the advice. Quite like that description of the difference between choppers and f/w!
On my trial flight, I really did enjoy the hands on experience, the viz was great, and i guess it was the versatility and that "helicopter experience" that made me really enjoy it.
Combine that with your excellent advice, and i think i might just give it a crack.
Time to start saving!!
Cheers
Eoin Carey
On my trial flight, I really did enjoy the hands on experience, the viz was great, and i guess it was the versatility and that "helicopter experience" that made me really enjoy it.
Combine that with your excellent advice, and i think i might just give it a crack.
Time to start saving!!
Cheers
Eoin Carey
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First thing, Eoin, is for you to tell us Yanks how to pronounce your name!
As for helicopters, yes they are "different." There are many prejudices in aviation, especially between helicopter people and fixed-wing people. Many misconceptions, too.
It is often stated that you must never remove your hands from the controls of a helicopter. This paints a strange image, and it is not entirely correct. To be sure, there are times when the helicopter needs it's controls attended to full-time. But not always. Properly set up in cruise (you know, if you're going somewhere), you can sit back and relax and enjoy the view just as any airplane pilot does. Most helicopters have a cyclic stick-trim system or a friction adjustment that will keep the stick from moving without input. If the day is not unbearably bumpy, a "sweet-spot" trim-location can usually be found and the ship will run along in a groove, more or less. No helicopter will ever be as naturally stable as a fixed-wing, but neither does every one try to turn themselves upside-down when you release the cyclic.
My first question would be: What do you intend to *do* with the helicopter? Despite what you may fantasize about, helicopters cannot simply land wherever they like. Sure, they can operate "off-airport," but these operations must be set up in advance, which limits the spur-of-the-moment ability to land at that Burger King down there for a Whopper Meal. (Never mind how dangerous that would be.)
If you plan on self-hiring (renting), do not expect that any operator will allow you to do a lot of off-airport stuff, if any. Most will be VERY leery about letting rentors do such risky things.
Even more so than airplanes, helicopters are extremely fuel-critical all the time. Even full-fuel in a helicopter isn't very much (most have trouble staying in the air for three hours.) And unless you plan on flying solo, don't plan on topping-off the tanks. If you fill all the seats *and* take along some baggage, you won't be going very far. Finding fuel when doing a lot of off-airport stuff is a big problem for us commercial guys. We never stray far from a fuel source (i.e. airport).
Oops, did I say baggage in that last paragraph? Small, two-seat helicopters have *NO* space for baggage. The R-22 has a tiny amount of space underneath the seats, but that's usually taken up by crap (oil, tools, etc). The four-seat R-44 has four underseat bins. Leave the Louis Vuitton stuff at home and put your stuff in knapsacks. Small knapsacks. The five-seat, turbine-powered Bell 206 has a decent baggage boot, but nobody is going to rent you one of those. And no, a 206 is not "double" the cost of your beloved Archer or Warrior. Multiply by about five. Maybe six.
The bottom line to all of this is that if you get a PPL-H and do not buy your own helicopter, you'll be forced to rent. And the helicopters you rent will be small, two-seaters. And if you rent, you'll be forced to operate from and to airports. And if you're operating from and to airports, you might as well be flying an air-plane.
Yes, helicopters are fun, challenging and rewarding. Mastering the skill is an achievement of which you can be justifiably proud. But a PPL-H is of VERY limited use...unless you like to spend oodles of money hovering around an airfield. Once you're up and flying, it's an aircraft like any other....well...slower, less stable, thirstier and less comfortable, but other than that, just like any other.
Stick to airplanes. They're more bang for the buck and you can actually do stuff with them.
As for helicopters, yes they are "different." There are many prejudices in aviation, especially between helicopter people and fixed-wing people. Many misconceptions, too.
It is often stated that you must never remove your hands from the controls of a helicopter. This paints a strange image, and it is not entirely correct. To be sure, there are times when the helicopter needs it's controls attended to full-time. But not always. Properly set up in cruise (you know, if you're going somewhere), you can sit back and relax and enjoy the view just as any airplane pilot does. Most helicopters have a cyclic stick-trim system or a friction adjustment that will keep the stick from moving without input. If the day is not unbearably bumpy, a "sweet-spot" trim-location can usually be found and the ship will run along in a groove, more or less. No helicopter will ever be as naturally stable as a fixed-wing, but neither does every one try to turn themselves upside-down when you release the cyclic.
My first question would be: What do you intend to *do* with the helicopter? Despite what you may fantasize about, helicopters cannot simply land wherever they like. Sure, they can operate "off-airport," but these operations must be set up in advance, which limits the spur-of-the-moment ability to land at that Burger King down there for a Whopper Meal. (Never mind how dangerous that would be.)
If you plan on self-hiring (renting), do not expect that any operator will allow you to do a lot of off-airport stuff, if any. Most will be VERY leery about letting rentors do such risky things.
Even more so than airplanes, helicopters are extremely fuel-critical all the time. Even full-fuel in a helicopter isn't very much (most have trouble staying in the air for three hours.) And unless you plan on flying solo, don't plan on topping-off the tanks. If you fill all the seats *and* take along some baggage, you won't be going very far. Finding fuel when doing a lot of off-airport stuff is a big problem for us commercial guys. We never stray far from a fuel source (i.e. airport).
Oops, did I say baggage in that last paragraph? Small, two-seat helicopters have *NO* space for baggage. The R-22 has a tiny amount of space underneath the seats, but that's usually taken up by crap (oil, tools, etc). The four-seat R-44 has four underseat bins. Leave the Louis Vuitton stuff at home and put your stuff in knapsacks. Small knapsacks. The five-seat, turbine-powered Bell 206 has a decent baggage boot, but nobody is going to rent you one of those. And no, a 206 is not "double" the cost of your beloved Archer or Warrior. Multiply by about five. Maybe six.
The bottom line to all of this is that if you get a PPL-H and do not buy your own helicopter, you'll be forced to rent. And the helicopters you rent will be small, two-seaters. And if you rent, you'll be forced to operate from and to airports. And if you're operating from and to airports, you might as well be flying an air-plane.
Yes, helicopters are fun, challenging and rewarding. Mastering the skill is an achievement of which you can be justifiably proud. But a PPL-H is of VERY limited use...unless you like to spend oodles of money hovering around an airfield. Once you're up and flying, it's an aircraft like any other....well...slower, less stable, thirstier and less comfortable, but other than that, just like any other.
Stick to airplanes. They're more bang for the buck and you can actually do stuff with them.
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Stick to airplanes. They're more bang for the buck and you can actually do stuff with them.
Of course, this is certainly not something you would do in civvie land.
The simple explanation I use for my non-flying friend is that a helicopter is like riding a unicycle while patting your head and rubbing your tummy. The whole thing is very hard at first but, with a bit of practice, it get pretty easy.
W/ respect to the whole hands off thing, if your intention is to eventually go commercial, depending what you are doing there are several models with an auto-pilot like system. The model I fly is pretty much hands off when flying an approach with minor corrections when it gets bumpy.
A helo PPL is certainly a nice thing to have. I would love to get my equivalency if only to rent the nice 206 at the local airport if only to bring my parents up for a nice ride in the fall, and other things like that.
Certainly give it a try if you have the money to spare. If anything it will only help you with your fixed wing flying and your hands and feet.
The Original Whirly
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The bottom line to all of this is that if you get a PPL-H and do not buy your own helicopter, you'll be forced to rent. And the helicopters you rent will be small, two-seaters. And if you rent, you'll be forced to operate from and to airports. And if you're operating from and to airports, you might as well be flying an air-plane.
At the next place I hired/hourbuilt from the rules were similar, and as I had a little more experience by then they were happy to let me land off airfield almost anywhere I liked. The front lawn of a stately home converted into flats was probably the most fun! Then there was the club trip to France, landing at Paris Heliport in the middle of the city, can't do that in an aeroplane. OK, so we were in an R22, and I'm probably the only woman only to have gone to Paris for the weekend with nothing but a spare T-shirt.... But the C150 in which I have a share is pretty tight on weight for continental touring too.
Concerning the not taking your hands off the controls, Rotordog is of course correct for most helicopters. But not for the R22 in which most of us learn. You have to hold the cyclic at all times; it doesn't have a reliable trim. You can take your hand off the collective, and of course you do, but it's good practice to make sure you could get to it fast in the unlikely event of engine failure.
To summarise:
Helicopters - tremendous fun to fly, great flexibility of landing places both normally and in an emergency (weather bad, land and have a cup of tea, then carry on), fantastic visibility, even the R22 looks very cool when you go to a fly-in
. BUT...expensive, probably a little harder overall to fly, need to be actually flown most of the time, R22 in particular is tiring on long flights, usually problems with fuel/weight/storage space on long flights.Aeroplanes - relatively cheap, easier to find co-pilots or shares when buying, less tiring on long flights as you don't need to do so much, more space and comfort with some types. BUT...can actually get quite boring after a while, unless you do aeros or similar (at a similar cost to flying helicopters), can only land normally or in emergencies in a relatively large space, eg airfield.
There's probably more, but over to someone else.
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Whirlybird:
Although what you describe sounds like good fun indeed, this sort of flying is one of the biggest contributors to accidents in the private helicopter flying. How "bad" does weather have to get before a pilot gives up and has a cup of tea? Often it all ends in a smoking hole when a non instrument trained pilot enters cloud "inadvertently".
Although some training on landing in confined areas is given during basic training, how many private pilots still remember the golden rules of checking the area out before landing. This includes taking into account the strength and direction of the wind and the likelihood of turbulence in the chosen area. Landing reasonably close to a large structure (e.g. the front lawn of a stately home) might mean that the airflow across the landing area is blanked by the structure. This could make a big difference to your day if you are heavily laden........
Does anybody out there know the reliability of the R22 engine?? Not sure if I would go as far as saying that it is unlikely to fail.
Helicopters - tremendous fun to fly, great flexibility of landing places both normally and in an emergency (weather bad, land and have a cup of tea, then carry on),
At the next place I hired/hourbuilt from the rules were similar, and as I had a little more experience by then they were happy to let me land off airfield almost anywhere I liked. The front lawn of a stately home converted into flats was probably the most fun!
in the unlikely event of engine failure
Better red than ...
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As a summary answer to the original question "Its bloody brilliant" (helicopter flying that is).
If you want to go a long way, fast, go in a FW. I crewed down to Barcelona in a TB20 a while ago. Going in the R44 would have taken about three days, taking into account range/ speed/ etc but it was a six hour trip in a 20.
The flying experience in rotary is very different and requires some different and some complimentary flying and airpersonship skills.
It is more expensive (or is it that FW is cheap? discuss) but you can find ways of reducing the cost through group ownership OR group flying (ie two people split the cost of Sheffield to lands End and back and fly half each. The half when your navigating and not hands on is still front seat flying).
Give it a go. You may join the rotary club but you will never leave ...
If you want to go a long way, fast, go in a FW. I crewed down to Barcelona in a TB20 a while ago. Going in the R44 would have taken about three days, taking into account range/ speed/ etc but it was a six hour trip in a 20.
The flying experience in rotary is very different and requires some different and some complimentary flying and airpersonship skills.
It is more expensive (or is it that FW is cheap? discuss) but you can find ways of reducing the cost through group ownership OR group flying (ie two people split the cost of Sheffield to lands End and back and fly half each. The half when your navigating and not hands on is still front seat flying).
Give it a go. You may join the rotary club but you will never leave ...
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To add to what the others have said..................
I too fly both fixed wing and rotary. If I want to go somewhere more than an hour or so away, I normally take the aeroplane. If I want to have fun, maybe go to a restaurant for lunch or just go flying, I will take a helicopter. I have never found any restriction by hire organisations on where I can land - the whole great thing about a helicopter is its ability to land almost anywhere and if they are happy to let you fly it then where you land is down to you. I would certainly far rather have an engine failure in a helo than a plank.
Re the comments about hands off flying. I do find the R22 very tiring to fly after a while. Due to too much use of a mouse, I suffer sometimes from tennis elbow, which is actually on the outer side of my forearm just below the elbow. When flying the R22 in the cruise, it requires a constant forward cyclic pressure as the cyclic trim is a crude on off device that does not help an awful lot. After a while, this really makes my arm ache and as you cannot let go of the thing you wind up using your right knee as a steadying anchor. About an hour of this is about all I can stand, so this is one reason I take an airplane if it is a long trip. As far as I know, the R22 is the only light helo that has this problem as all the others have an effective cyclic trim.
Great fun though!
I too fly both fixed wing and rotary. If I want to go somewhere more than an hour or so away, I normally take the aeroplane. If I want to have fun, maybe go to a restaurant for lunch or just go flying, I will take a helicopter. I have never found any restriction by hire organisations on where I can land - the whole great thing about a helicopter is its ability to land almost anywhere and if they are happy to let you fly it then where you land is down to you. I would certainly far rather have an engine failure in a helo than a plank.
Re the comments about hands off flying. I do find the R22 very tiring to fly after a while. Due to too much use of a mouse, I suffer sometimes from tennis elbow, which is actually on the outer side of my forearm just below the elbow. When flying the R22 in the cruise, it requires a constant forward cyclic pressure as the cyclic trim is a crude on off device that does not help an awful lot. After a while, this really makes my arm ache and as you cannot let go of the thing you wind up using your right knee as a steadying anchor. About an hour of this is about all I can stand, so this is one reason I take an airplane if it is a long trip. As far as I know, the R22 is the only light helo that has this problem as all the others have an effective cyclic trim.
Great fun though!
Better red than ...
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The 44 hydraulic can be flown for hours without any of the R22 pain (it hurts me too). The longest I've done in one day in an R44 is 10.5hrs (midsummer day, when its always light) and I had zero wrist pain that comes with 1.5hrs in an R22.
Jet Rangers are comfy too.
h-r
Jet Rangers are comfy too.
h-r
The Original Whirly
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flyer43,
OK, maybe I should have qualified what I wrote...so thank you for doing it for me.
Concerning landing if the weather closes in, I've always considered this as one of the great advantages of the helicopter. So, actually, does the CAA; in their Safety Sense leaflet on rotary flying they point out that helicopters have the advantage of being able to land almost anywhere, and advise pilots to land rather than press on in marginal weather. At the school where I got my PPL(H), they suggested that if the weather was such that you had to slow down to less than 60 kts, or fly below 500ft, you should land. That sounds like common sense to me. Of course, some pilots treat such advice as a licence to fly anywhere in any conditions; well, anything can be misused by idiots, can't it?
Concerning the landing on the front lawn of the stately home, I'd checked everything out from the ground, knew that I could approach into the field next to it and hop over the fence, that there were no wires, and that there was plenty of room. and good escape routes. I'd also considered the weather and the direction of the wind. I'd like to think all PPLs who land off airfield know about these things, but pointing them out does no harm.
I have the figures concerning R22 accidents somewhere. Very, very few are caused by engine failure. It is generally known to be an unlikely event, although of course always possible.
OK, maybe I should have qualified what I wrote...so thank you for doing it for me.
Concerning landing if the weather closes in, I've always considered this as one of the great advantages of the helicopter. So, actually, does the CAA; in their Safety Sense leaflet on rotary flying they point out that helicopters have the advantage of being able to land almost anywhere, and advise pilots to land rather than press on in marginal weather. At the school where I got my PPL(H), they suggested that if the weather was such that you had to slow down to less than 60 kts, or fly below 500ft, you should land. That sounds like common sense to me. Of course, some pilots treat such advice as a licence to fly anywhere in any conditions; well, anything can be misused by idiots, can't it?
Concerning the landing on the front lawn of the stately home, I'd checked everything out from the ground, knew that I could approach into the field next to it and hop over the fence, that there were no wires, and that there was plenty of room. and good escape routes. I'd also considered the weather and the direction of the wind. I'd like to think all PPLs who land off airfield know about these things, but pointing them out does no harm.
I have the figures concerning R22 accidents somewhere. Very, very few are caused by engine failure. It is generally known to be an unlikely event, although of course always possible.
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Whirlybird:
Thanks for taking my comments as they were meant, and glad to hear that you obviously know the correct way to approach a dangerous pastime. I just wish that everybody would apply the same common sense at the right time rather than get "press on itis" and tempt providence.
Safe flying
Thanks for taking my comments as they were meant, and glad to hear that you obviously know the correct way to approach a dangerous pastime. I just wish that everybody would apply the same common sense at the right time rather than get "press on itis" and tempt providence.
Safe flying
Hovering AND talking
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that you had to slow down to less than 60 kts
Jet Rangers are comfy too.
Anyway Eion (pronounced Ewan?), I hope this gives you some insight into the similarities and the differences.
There is one thing though of which you must be aware - if you go for the helicopter licence be prepared to be addicted and spend a lot of money. If you don't think you can afford best not to tempt yourself. It's a bad ol' bug to catch. If I had never had a heli flight in summer 2002, I wouldn't have known any different and would be several £'000s better off. Mind you, I'd have gone and done something daft like buy myself a 911.
Cheers
Whirlygig
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Eion (pronounced Ian I think),
How much money have you got? Rhetorical question - no reply required. If you can only just afford the ppl(h) stick to planks until you have saved plenty of pennies. I reckon that you would need to comfortably be able to afford at least an hours self fly hire a fortnight after you have paid for the ppl. I personally think that you need an hour a week to get value for money out of the ppl. I am sure others have differing opinions on how much flying you need to do to get value for money. But once a week and 50ish hours a year would be a minimum I would set myself to remain current. But that's another question.
It would be shame to spend all that money and never be able to afford to use it.
How much money have you got? Rhetorical question - no reply required. If you can only just afford the ppl(h) stick to planks until you have saved plenty of pennies. I reckon that you would need to comfortably be able to afford at least an hours self fly hire a fortnight after you have paid for the ppl. I personally think that you need an hour a week to get value for money out of the ppl. I am sure others have differing opinions on how much flying you need to do to get value for money. But once a week and 50ish hours a year would be a minimum I would set myself to remain current. But that's another question.
It would be shame to spend all that money and never be able to afford to use it.
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Thanks for all the replies
Firstly, probably shoud clarify the name thing, its pronounced owen and is probably the worst spelling in the world!
Ive already had a trial flight and loved it, but the money is really the big issue. Suppose it would be fair to say that f/w is more practical for a-b stuff, but in my lifetime i won't be doing a great deal of that stuff (my airport isnt all that local), so im really looking to get the best flying experience for the dosh.
Cheers
Eoin (Owen)
Firstly, probably shoud clarify the name thing, its pronounced owen and is probably the worst spelling in the world!
Ive already had a trial flight and loved it, but the money is really the big issue. Suppose it would be fair to say that f/w is more practical for a-b stuff, but in my lifetime i won't be doing a great deal of that stuff (my airport isnt all that local), so im really looking to get the best flying experience for the dosh.
Cheers
Eoin (Owen)