Could this happen: a non-pilot landing a heavy jet ??
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Well here are my two cents (pence) worth.
A/P + A/T engaged, CAT II/III approach, near destination (nav aids set), good weather (no wind), a good instructor pilot to give instructions all along, no other failures or problems. YES, it could be done.
Any other circumstances, and I would not be putting money on it ending happily. I fly an aircraft with autoland capabilities (B738) and it is quite easy to do, as long as you know what you are looking at. That is, as I see it, the problem for PCsimmmers. They know what things are supposed to look like, but do not necessarily know when things start to go wrong, or how to correct a deviation. This is something that has to be seen 'in action' and be experienced/felt. No sim can teach you this (not even a level D). All professional pilots will testify that the sim is good, but it isn't the 'real thing'. Mistakes must be made or seen on the line, in order for experience to grow. An example: I made the balls of a visual approach a couple of weeks ago. Sure I had flown loads of visuals in the sim. But in real life things are different. These are things I feel cannot be learned in a sim, but must be experienced first hand. Therefore, a pcsimmer behind the controls is not an ideal prospect for a happy landing in my book.
Let me re-iterate. Ideal conditions, yes no problem, otherwise no.
But as Fokker-Jock says, much rather a PCsimmer gives it a try than anyone else.
DB
FJ, what are you? 0198?
A/P + A/T engaged, CAT II/III approach, near destination (nav aids set), good weather (no wind), a good instructor pilot to give instructions all along, no other failures or problems. YES, it could be done.
Any other circumstances, and I would not be putting money on it ending happily. I fly an aircraft with autoland capabilities (B738) and it is quite easy to do, as long as you know what you are looking at. That is, as I see it, the problem for PCsimmmers. They know what things are supposed to look like, but do not necessarily know when things start to go wrong, or how to correct a deviation. This is something that has to be seen 'in action' and be experienced/felt. No sim can teach you this (not even a level D). All professional pilots will testify that the sim is good, but it isn't the 'real thing'. Mistakes must be made or seen on the line, in order for experience to grow. An example: I made the balls of a visual approach a couple of weeks ago. Sure I had flown loads of visuals in the sim. But in real life things are different. These are things I feel cannot be learned in a sim, but must be experienced first hand. Therefore, a pcsimmer behind the controls is not an ideal prospect for a happy landing in my book.
Let me re-iterate. Ideal conditions, yes no problem, otherwise no.
But as Fokker-Jock says, much rather a PCsimmer gives it a try than anyone else.
DB
FJ, what are you? 0198?
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Like others have said, yeah it's remotely possible. In your case though teropa I doubt it 'cos you don't seem to listen. Every time a pro throws you a curved ball you post a whole page of arguements. You going to do that on the radio? Sheesh, all your talking and you'll run out of fuel in a perfectly serviceable airplane.
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hi all,
Some interesting replies and comments again!
I'd like to comment some of them though...
ILS27LEFT,
Thanks for the statement of confidence ! Although I'm sure that I would skip the taxi-in anyway hehe
.
PAXboy,
If I was a passenger on a plane I didn't know, and there was a pax who knew the plane like the back of his/her hand _in theory, through a flight simulator_. What would I do if I was to encounter such a situation ? What about if I was on the gnd and my family was pax on that plane ?
I would NEVER take an f/a or purser over an avid flight simmer!! Why the hell would I choose a person who has ZIP knowledge on the a/c systems over someone else who's knowledgeable enough to, say, use the automatics, JUST BECAUSE he/she declares to be a flight simulator enthusiast ?? I don't follow your logic here, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
Although, I bet that if it were to actually happen, you would choose otherwise... It's amazing how quickly one can change his mind, and I see no other reason to your logic than the mindset of us flight simmers being utterly worthless by nature. The world indeed is an odd place sometimes...
Fokker-Jock,
I agree with everything you said in your message.
I talked about some pilots elevating themselves to a certain level, which was kind of obscure of me, I have to say. What I meant was that there seems to be an attitude, among _some_ pro pilots, that everyone below their level (i.e. CPL, PPL(IR), ultralight, sailing planes, flight simulators) is plain stupid and their opinion doesn't count. To prove this, all you have to do is take a look at the thread where some of these champs are whining to get a private, closed forum. Excellent. Let there be a closed arena for conversations, and soon the talking would either dry out or become truly boring otherwise... But I don't want to see any off-topic posts in this thread about that, so I'll just leave it at that...
You SURELY are not elevating yourself when stating that you have the ability to fly the plane you fly, much better than those unqualified. You're just stating a hard fact, and that's perfectly OK, of course.
I think I have to elaborate a bit more on the "elevation" thing...
It seems as though the people who see themselves above others, are not just seeing that from the professional POV. These people think that their opinions, regarding matters nothing to do with flying itself, are also far better and MUCH better justified. The comment usually seen in the forums is roughly "you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and your obviously not a professional... most likely a beancounter or a "nintendo" pilot". That kind of comments emerge as funny very often, especially after reading that other people verify the "nintendo" pilot to be a retired airline captain
.
DB,
100% agreed. Thanks for throwing in an opinion.
LES,
Show me where I have thrown in a pageful of arguments with NO reason !
I have tried to ANSWER the questions and points that others felt needed re-iterating.
Do you expect me to just be quiet (and thus let others prove their case of me being ignorant) when someone tells me that I don't know what something is, when I infact do ?!!
How would you react?
cheers,
Tero
Some interesting replies and comments again!
I'd like to comment some of them though...
ILS27LEFT,
Thanks for the statement of confidence ! Although I'm sure that I would skip the taxi-in anyway hehe
.PAXboy,
If I was a passenger on a plane I didn't know, and there was a pax who knew the plane like the back of his/her hand _in theory, through a flight simulator_. What would I do if I was to encounter such a situation ? What about if I was on the gnd and my family was pax on that plane ?
I would NEVER take an f/a or purser over an avid flight simmer!! Why the hell would I choose a person who has ZIP knowledge on the a/c systems over someone else who's knowledgeable enough to, say, use the automatics, JUST BECAUSE he/she declares to be a flight simulator enthusiast ?? I don't follow your logic here, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
Although, I bet that if it were to actually happen, you would choose otherwise... It's amazing how quickly one can change his mind, and I see no other reason to your logic than the mindset of us flight simmers being utterly worthless by nature. The world indeed is an odd place sometimes...
Fokker-Jock,
I agree with everything you said in your message.
I talked about some pilots elevating themselves to a certain level, which was kind of obscure of me, I have to say. What I meant was that there seems to be an attitude, among _some_ pro pilots, that everyone below their level (i.e. CPL, PPL(IR), ultralight, sailing planes, flight simulators) is plain stupid and their opinion doesn't count. To prove this, all you have to do is take a look at the thread where some of these champs are whining to get a private, closed forum. Excellent. Let there be a closed arena for conversations, and soon the talking would either dry out or become truly boring otherwise... But I don't want to see any off-topic posts in this thread about that, so I'll just leave it at that...
You SURELY are not elevating yourself when stating that you have the ability to fly the plane you fly, much better than those unqualified. You're just stating a hard fact, and that's perfectly OK, of course.
I think I have to elaborate a bit more on the "elevation" thing...
It seems as though the people who see themselves above others, are not just seeing that from the professional POV. These people think that their opinions, regarding matters nothing to do with flying itself, are also far better and MUCH better justified. The comment usually seen in the forums is roughly "you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and your obviously not a professional... most likely a beancounter or a "nintendo" pilot". That kind of comments emerge as funny very often, especially after reading that other people verify the "nintendo" pilot to be a retired airline captain
.DB,
100% agreed. Thanks for throwing in an opinion.
LES,
Show me where I have thrown in a pageful of arguments with NO reason !
I have tried to ANSWER the questions and points that others felt needed re-iterating.
Do you expect me to just be quiet (and thus let others prove their case of me being ignorant) when someone tells me that I don't know what something is, when I infact do ?!!
How would you react?
cheers,
Tero
Last edited by teropa; 21st Aug 2002 at 05:14.
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teropa, I looked at the web sight you posted the link for. The first thing I notice is that the fleet I fly all use different FMC’s. We use the early model through the PIP to the Pegasus type.
You would find that programming an FMC that you had not encountered before a bit more troublesome than you anticipate, I know because all us line jocks, even with training and an instruction book had trouble and we‘ve been using the real thing for years.
I still believe you could do it if all went smoothly and you were lucky.
Did I detect a note of arrogance in your remark about simmer being automatically better than a Purser? In the company I fly for a significant number of CC have a real flying licence; some even have ATPL’s so I would be very careful about that dismissive attitude, you’re beginning to sound like a pilot
From my instructional days I remember that one of the obstacles students had was understanding the radio, add a Greek or French accent (or any other) and you begin to get the picture.
I promise you that in my company we have a chain of command and you are not in it. The cabin manager is in charge of flying when all us pilots are U/S.
You would find that programming an FMC that you had not encountered before a bit more troublesome than you anticipate, I know because all us line jocks, even with training and an instruction book had trouble and we‘ve been using the real thing for years.
I still believe you could do it if all went smoothly and you were lucky.
Did I detect a note of arrogance in your remark about simmer being automatically better than a Purser? In the company I fly for a significant number of CC have a real flying licence; some even have ATPL’s so I would be very careful about that dismissive attitude, you’re beginning to sound like a pilot
From my instructional days I remember that one of the obstacles students had was understanding the radio, add a Greek or French accent (or any other) and you begin to get the picture.
I promise you that in my company we have a chain of command and you are not in it. The cabin manager is in charge of flying when all us pilots are U/S.
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max_cont,
Yes, the FMC indeed is a newer gen device, and I wouldn't feel at home with the older ones. However, assuming that the older device has some "self-explanatory" items and me having some quality assistance via radio, I think I'd probably "hack it".
Hehe, my dismissive attitude was only towards such cabin crew who are not rated in any way... But you know, even I would seriously doubt that a person with no aviation experience/knowledge would pull it off. No way... or at least the chances would be minimal and the radio assistance would have to be top grade and the person receiving the instructions very good in interpreting what he/she heard.
Regarding RTF:
I fly (sic) regularly in Virtual Air Traffic network called VATSIM. See: www.vatsim.net. It basically means that there are real people providing ATC services accross the globe. There are also real ATCOs and real airline pilots participating in the action quite a lot, would you believe. The network goes "by the book" all the time, meaning that we try to replicate everything as close as possible to the real deal. This means that the RTF, procedures, navdata etc. (everything) used is right on the money and sometimes even more "stricter" than the real world comms. I have experience on both. We use real-time radio transmission over the net, which equals the quality of a real R/T. You are definitely right when mentioning the different accents etc. I have flown (sic) many times accross the Europe in VATSIM and some of the controllers are really hard to understand. Interesting point.
I realize the chain of command very well, having been in the military for 12 months. Although, I'd like to ask you something:
If your family was in jeopardy, would you rather have the senior cabin manager take over or an outsider PAX with heavy simming experience in the type ?
Thanks for your messages, I enjoy reading them.
cheers,
Tero
p.s. the web site where the PIC review is doesn't reveal it all about the product. For example, in PIC767 there's a possibility to use either the regular EADI or the Pegasus type. Also, it doesn't have the picture of the panel with the stand-by instruments on. (merge nicely to the center, to the row where the annunciators are). Plus a number of other things.
Yes, the FMC indeed is a newer gen device, and I wouldn't feel at home with the older ones. However, assuming that the older device has some "self-explanatory" items and me having some quality assistance via radio, I think I'd probably "hack it"
.Hehe, my dismissive attitude was only towards such cabin crew who are not rated in any way... But you know, even I would seriously doubt that a person with no aviation experience/knowledge would pull it off. No way... or at least the chances would be minimal and the radio assistance would have to be top grade and the person receiving the instructions very good in interpreting what he/she heard.
Regarding RTF:
I fly (sic) regularly in Virtual Air Traffic network called VATSIM. See: www.vatsim.net. It basically means that there are real people providing ATC services accross the globe. There are also real ATCOs and real airline pilots participating in the action quite a lot, would you believe. The network goes "by the book" all the time, meaning that we try to replicate everything as close as possible to the real deal. This means that the RTF, procedures, navdata etc. (everything) used is right on the money and sometimes even more "stricter" than the real world comms. I have experience on both. We use real-time radio transmission over the net, which equals the quality of a real R/T. You are definitely right when mentioning the different accents etc. I have flown (sic) many times accross the Europe in VATSIM and some of the controllers are really hard to understand. Interesting point.
I realize the chain of command very well, having been in the military for 12 months
. Although, I'd like to ask you something:If your family was in jeopardy, would you rather have the senior cabin manager take over or an outsider PAX with heavy simming experience in the type ?
Thanks for your messages, I enjoy reading them.
cheers,
Tero
p.s. the web site where the PIC review is doesn't reveal it all about the product. For example, in PIC767 there's a possibility to use either the regular EADI or the Pegasus type. Also, it doesn't have the picture of the panel with the stand-by instruments on. (merge nicely to the center, to the row where the annunciators are). Plus a number of other things.
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teropa
Thing is, the Purser would make the decision. Chain of command is Captain, F/O, Purser, (excluding any off duty or positioning crew.) If they decide they don't want you then you have to accept that. It is not a question of you choosing not to use cabin crew. It is the cabin crew's choice whether to use you or not!!!!
Eff Oh.
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teropa, in answer to your question the simple answer is the Cabin Manager. Let me explain.
1.This would be the company’s instruction for the succession of command. (They own the A/C)
2.The cabin crew are very familiar with the Flt deck layout and have been trained for pilot incapacitation. Agreed the scenario is only one pilot out of the loop. But most of the senior CC understand how to use the radios and they know how to use Hdg Sel. (we discuss this often)
3.The CC will utilise all assets to achieve a safe recovery of A/C and passengers. You would be considered an asset and may be asked to assist the CC in achieving this.
4.The Cabin Manager has a complete understanding of what is required in the cabin and can plan accordingly. You are completely in the dark over such matters (I assume) and all the passengers’ safety is paramount.
5.If you have never been “solo” you have no idea how that realisation will affect your performance. It is a hugely sobering thought when you look across the cockpit and see no one. Ask anyone that’s been there.
6.The preconceived idea’s you have can lead you to make errors that someone else without all of your knowledge would not make.
7.You may try to be too clever with the automatics i.e. use the FMC to navigate instead of using radar vectors to an ILS with Hdg Sel and Flt Chg under radio guidance from a qualified pilot.
Your assumption that any FMC differences would be apparent is IMHO, wrong. For example the later FMC’s allow you to bring a waypoint to the top of the legs page and execute to fly direct. Older models tell you to naff off. You may or may not input data on blank lines whereas on the new FMC’s you get a prompt if you can. Some of the keys on the FMC that you have in your sim are a mystery to me because I’ve never seen that type before. (And I’ve got a fair amount of flying experience with various FMC’s in 737-300 757-200 and 767-2/300) On the FMC’s I use, you have to input the lower FL with “A” and then the higher FL with “B”, not the way the instruction tells you for the one you use. You can input RTE by airway on some FMC’s without a termination point on others you have to specify an aid or waypoint. Some FMC’s recognise NDB’s without the NB after the ident others don’t. The list goes on and on.
Your systems knowledge is impressive and I still think you could do it, but only if you kept it simple.
Just as a final point, if I were flying as a passenger on say an Airbus or another unfamiliar type, I honestly believe I would need to keep it simple and have help to achieve a safe landing in the event that the pilots became incapacitated.
1.This would be the company’s instruction for the succession of command. (They own the A/C)
2.The cabin crew are very familiar with the Flt deck layout and have been trained for pilot incapacitation. Agreed the scenario is only one pilot out of the loop. But most of the senior CC understand how to use the radios and they know how to use Hdg Sel. (we discuss this often)
3.The CC will utilise all assets to achieve a safe recovery of A/C and passengers. You would be considered an asset and may be asked to assist the CC in achieving this.
4.The Cabin Manager has a complete understanding of what is required in the cabin and can plan accordingly. You are completely in the dark over such matters (I assume) and all the passengers’ safety is paramount.
5.If you have never been “solo” you have no idea how that realisation will affect your performance. It is a hugely sobering thought when you look across the cockpit and see no one. Ask anyone that’s been there.
6.The preconceived idea’s you have can lead you to make errors that someone else without all of your knowledge would not make.
7.You may try to be too clever with the automatics i.e. use the FMC to navigate instead of using radar vectors to an ILS with Hdg Sel and Flt Chg under radio guidance from a qualified pilot.
Your assumption that any FMC differences would be apparent is IMHO, wrong. For example the later FMC’s allow you to bring a waypoint to the top of the legs page and execute to fly direct. Older models tell you to naff off. You may or may not input data on blank lines whereas on the new FMC’s you get a prompt if you can. Some of the keys on the FMC that you have in your sim are a mystery to me because I’ve never seen that type before. (And I’ve got a fair amount of flying experience with various FMC’s in 737-300 757-200 and 767-2/300) On the FMC’s I use, you have to input the lower FL with “A” and then the higher FL with “B”, not the way the instruction tells you for the one you use. You can input RTE by airway on some FMC’s without a termination point on others you have to specify an aid or waypoint. Some FMC’s recognise NDB’s without the NB after the ident others don’t. The list goes on and on.
Your systems knowledge is impressive and I still think you could do it, but only if you kept it simple.
Just as a final point, if I were flying as a passenger on say an Airbus or another unfamiliar type, I honestly believe I would need to keep it simple and have help to achieve a safe landing in the event that the pilots became incapacitated.
Last edited by max_cont; 21st Aug 2002 at 13:08.
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Intersting thread. Here's my 2p and a few questions relating to this extremely hypothetic scenario.
I am also a simmer and am very familiar with the software that Teropa uses. If anyone has used even the latest offering from Microsoft 'straight out of the box', make no mistake, this product bares no comparison. I am also an ATSA with 12yrs experience, so know a thing or two about real aviation.
Firstly, taking the chain-of-comand thing into question. I can see that the Senior Cabin Crew / Purser is going to be firmly in command. After all, he/she is likely to be the only person on board aware of the predicament, so I guess they are going to call ops and ask their advice. Surely one of the first actions they'll suggest is to find out if there are any licenced pilots on board. In Tero's scenario there are not, but he puts himself forward as an armchair pilot who is willing to assist.
A question for any CC that may be reading - Do you accept Tero's offer and invite him to the flight deck, or, do you decline his offer and report back to ops that you are on your own?
Let's assume you invite Tero to join you in the right hand seat. He sits down and carmly begins scanning the instruments, giving you a commentary of the current state of the aircraft. How will you use Tero?
Now, on to all this stuff about, the fit might be a bit different & my SOP's say you should do it this way not that way. Let's get real - Tero is going to be terofied, he has stated that there is a type-rated pilot on the radio - he is going to do exactly what he is told. Which brings me to another question. What are the chances of getting such a person on the radio? How long will it take? I know for a fact that we don't have them sitting in the ready room at LTCC waiting for such an event. What is the likelyhood of having one in your ops room? serious question - I dunno.
But anyway, we have SCC overseeing the operation, a pilot on the line & a chap who knows what flaps are & what they do, understands airspeed & recognises when it is not doing as instructed/anticipated, etc, etc - plus, he has a fair knowledge of where all the right (and wrong) buttons and levers are, what they are called and what they will do. Add to this, he is no stranger to basic ATC instructions. I give the team a very optamistic chance of bringing the bird down successfully - given ideal weather and fully servicable systems.
I know I could!
Rgds,
Hippy.
Tero - any chance of getting those screen shots onto the AVSIM or Flightsim screenshot forums?
I am also a simmer and am very familiar with the software that Teropa uses. If anyone has used even the latest offering from Microsoft 'straight out of the box', make no mistake, this product bares no comparison. I am also an ATSA with 12yrs experience, so know a thing or two about real aviation.
Firstly, taking the chain-of-comand thing into question. I can see that the Senior Cabin Crew / Purser is going to be firmly in command. After all, he/she is likely to be the only person on board aware of the predicament, so I guess they are going to call ops and ask their advice. Surely one of the first actions they'll suggest is to find out if there are any licenced pilots on board. In Tero's scenario there are not, but he puts himself forward as an armchair pilot who is willing to assist.
A question for any CC that may be reading - Do you accept Tero's offer and invite him to the flight deck, or, do you decline his offer and report back to ops that you are on your own?
Let's assume you invite Tero to join you in the right hand seat. He sits down and carmly begins scanning the instruments, giving you a commentary of the current state of the aircraft. How will you use Tero?
Now, on to all this stuff about, the fit might be a bit different & my SOP's say you should do it this way not that way. Let's get real - Tero is going to be terofied, he has stated that there is a type-rated pilot on the radio - he is going to do exactly what he is told. Which brings me to another question. What are the chances of getting such a person on the radio? How long will it take? I know for a fact that we don't have them sitting in the ready room at LTCC waiting for such an event. What is the likelyhood of having one in your ops room? serious question - I dunno.
But anyway, we have SCC overseeing the operation, a pilot on the line & a chap who knows what flaps are & what they do, understands airspeed & recognises when it is not doing as instructed/anticipated, etc, etc - plus, he has a fair knowledge of where all the right (and wrong) buttons and levers are, what they are called and what they will do. Add to this, he is no stranger to basic ATC instructions. I give the team a very optamistic chance of bringing the bird down successfully - given ideal weather and fully servicable systems.
I know I could!
Rgds,
Hippy.
Tero - any chance of getting those screen shots onto the AVSIM or Flightsim screenshot forums?
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Well hello again!
max_cont,
points 1. - 4. in your latest post:
I agree 100% and have never disagreed with those things as I recall.
point 5.:
I see where you're coming from, but I also see that if it was a life-or-death situation, I would try to do EVERYTHING to save my butt and that of the others.
I know I could be of help even in the situation of me lying on the cockpit floor shaking, unable to do anything, but able to tell the senior cabin crew member where to find this and that. I dunno.. I would like to think that I could, at least. I have no reason to believe I couldn't, let's just put it that way... One has to have a bit of confidence !
point 6.:
Are you suggesting that I would question any instructions I'd be given ? I would not do that, period.
point 7.:
Same as point 6. Not in a million lightyears would I start soloing in a situation like that. It's no place to "try out" the "skills" I've acquired. No way.
Regarding the FMC. This is what I wrote in my previous post:
"Yes, the FMC indeed is a newer gen device, and I wouldn't feel at home with the older ones. However, assuming that the older device has some "self-explanatory" items and me having some quality assistance via radio, I think I'd probably "hack it" . "
Notice two things: assuming that the device had some self-explanatory items, AND me getting top grade assistance from a pilot via radio.
I wouldn't know what to do with the older models of Honeywell FMC, but if it went to the point that I had to try something, I certainly would. There always the option to dump the fmc controlled lateral/vertical modes, and start using only HDG SEL, FL CH etc.
About the Airbus:
I don't like the Airbus' systems. I have also used a pretty good Bus simulator for some time, and I'd have to agree that without Airbus systems knowledge, ANY professional pilot without type-rating in ANY airbus would be in deep deep trouble. It's nothing like Boeing, one can't basically make any assumptions that are based on Boeing systems in a Bus.
RussLightYear,
No need to act like a brat. I just told you what I think. You're just being sarcastic to make a fool of me. You obviously can't stand any criticism without getting the tone right away. I know I can be equally annoying sometimes, but I usually try to back up my opinions in some way. Happy instructing!
Hippy,
Hi there fellow nintendo'er. And thanks for the support !
Those questions you made are interesting and demand to be answered by pros right away!
I'll sort out the screenshots after I get home from work and post them in the evening. They're actually nothing that special from a simmers POV, just good shots to display panel operation and different parts of it at different phases of flight. Just to demonstrate that it really does what it's supposed to do.
Pilot Pete,
I've been bombarded by different "abnormal" scenarios throughout the thread, even though one of the main assumptions for ANY serious simmer (not just me) to pull this off were ideal circumstances (i.e. the aircraft working as it should).
Anyway, I enjoy reading about these non-normal encounters as it's a great way to learn... and straight from the PROs themselves, which is great.
What would I do ... hmm.. There are probably two things that _I_ could do in that situation:
1. I could manually add thrust (A/T still on, just fight the throttles a bit, I know this can be done) to make the hard hard landing a little less hard, although flaring at 50ft (assuming speed correct) would probably cause a tail-strike and a very hard and bouncy landing. Not good.
2. G/A. I would disarm the speedbrakes (wouldn't want em to deploy upon the possible contact with the gnd), disconnect the A/P, press TO/GA, rotate, flaps 20, positive rate, gear up.
Once safely cleared the ground I'd start using the automatics again and set the speed not to bust Vfe. ( I'd engage A/P again ALT HLD, HDG HLD, SPD).
I would choose option 2, but I'm REALLY not sure if that would be a wise choice, and now I'm eager to learn what would be!
Thanks,
Tero
max_cont,
points 1. - 4. in your latest post:
I agree 100% and have never disagreed with those things as I recall.
point 5.:
I see where you're coming from, but I also see that if it was a life-or-death situation, I would try to do EVERYTHING to save my butt and that of the others
.I know I could be of help even in the situation of me lying on the cockpit floor shaking, unable to do anything, but able to tell the senior cabin crew member where to find this and that. I dunno.. I would like to think that I could, at least. I have no reason to believe I couldn't, let's just put it that way... One has to have a bit of confidence !
point 6.:
Are you suggesting that I would question any instructions I'd be given ? I would not do that, period.
point 7.:
Same as point 6. Not in a million lightyears would I start soloing in a situation like that. It's no place to "try out" the "skills" I've acquired. No way.
Regarding the FMC. This is what I wrote in my previous post:
"Yes, the FMC indeed is a newer gen device, and I wouldn't feel at home with the older ones. However, assuming that the older device has some "self-explanatory" items and me having some quality assistance via radio, I think I'd probably "hack it" . "
Notice two things: assuming that the device had some self-explanatory items, AND me getting top grade assistance from a pilot via radio.
I wouldn't know what to do with the older models of Honeywell FMC, but if it went to the point that I had to try something, I certainly would. There always the option to dump the fmc controlled lateral/vertical modes, and start using only HDG SEL, FL CH etc.
About the Airbus:
I don't like the Airbus' systems. I have also used a pretty good Bus simulator for some time, and I'd have to agree that without Airbus systems knowledge, ANY professional pilot without type-rating in ANY airbus would be in deep deep trouble. It's nothing like Boeing, one can't basically make any assumptions that are based on Boeing systems in a Bus.
RussLightYear,
No need to act like a brat. I just told you what I think. You're just being sarcastic to make a fool of me. You obviously can't stand any criticism without getting the tone right away. I know I can be equally annoying sometimes, but I usually try to back up my opinions in some way. Happy instructing!
Hippy,
Hi there fellow nintendo'er
. And thanks for the support !Those questions you made are interesting and demand to be answered by pros right away!
I'll sort out the screenshots after I get home from work and post them in the evening. They're actually nothing that special from a simmers POV, just good shots to display panel operation and different parts of it at different phases of flight. Just to demonstrate that it really does what it's supposed to do
.Pilot Pete,
I've been bombarded by different "abnormal" scenarios throughout the thread, even though one of the main assumptions for ANY serious simmer (not just me) to pull this off were ideal circumstances (i.e. the aircraft working as it should).
Anyway, I enjoy reading about these non-normal encounters as it's a great way to learn... and straight from the PROs themselves, which is great.
What would I do ... hmm.. There are probably two things that _I_ could do in that situation:
1. I could manually add thrust (A/T still on, just fight the throttles a bit, I know this can be done) to make the hard hard landing a little less hard, although flaring at 50ft (assuming speed correct) would probably cause a tail-strike and a very hard and bouncy landing. Not good.
2. G/A. I would disarm the speedbrakes (wouldn't want em to deploy upon the possible contact with the gnd), disconnect the A/P, press TO/GA, rotate, flaps 20, positive rate, gear up.
Once safely cleared the ground I'd start using the automatics again and set the speed not to bust Vfe. ( I'd engage A/P again ALT HLD, HDG HLD, SPD).
I would choose option 2, but I'm REALLY not sure if that would be a wise choice, and now I'm eager to learn what would be!
Thanks,
Tero
Last edited by teropa; 22nd Aug 2002 at 07:30.
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As long as we understand it would never happen...
I have watched about a dozen guys (ATCers) have a go on an airlines' A300 sim. Pilot ability varied from nil to current, 1200hr CPL twins.
With talk-down guidance, even the nil hour guys were able to make an 'acceptable' landing. With no guidance, about 80% spear-in rate. Interestingly, the experience level made little or no difference. This was hand-flying (no autoland on old A300).
I would have put myself in the category of 'those who thought they could do it if they had to'. Not now. Not unless I had someone talking me through it. And that was only sim.
With talk-down guidance, even the nil hour guys were able to make an 'acceptable' landing. With no guidance, about 80% spear-in rate. Interestingly, the experience level made little or no difference. This was hand-flying (no autoland on old A300).
I would have put myself in the category of 'those who thought they could do it if they had to'. Not now. Not unless I had someone talking me through it. And that was only sim.
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OK I've never been in control of a real life B767, however I do enjoy Flight Sim and hey if both tech crew were incapacitated and there were no other qualified pilots on board then I wouldn't hesitate in using my (yes totally unqualified but better than nothing at all) Sim experience(?) to try and land the aircraft safely.
I sure as hell wouldn't even try and compare myself to a professional pilot, and frankly I'd be happy if I got the bird down with fuselage intact and without loss of life.
My two cents (or pence, depending on where you're from).
SG
I sure as hell wouldn't even try and compare myself to a professional pilot, and frankly I'd be happy if I got the bird down with fuselage intact and without loss of life.
My two cents (or pence, depending on where you're from).
SG
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Teropa - I'm amazed that you have experienced three engine failures in light a/c - tell us more about this. In all the years I've been flying I have only ever met one person who has lost an engine more than once - and nobody who has lost three. You must really skew the statistics in your part of the world. With that sort of luck, I think you should consider very carefully whether to pursue a career in aviation !
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essouira,
First, I'd like to say that I recent your tone, which is ridiculing and full of disbelief.
What is it about you people ?! It seems that your credibility around here equals to Zero in some people's eyes if you don't have an ATPL. Sheesh...
I will not write an essay of those incidents here, but I will tell you this.
All of them were failures of PURELY mechanical nature, and neither me or my father (who was PIC) could do anything about it.
To be more specific, the magnetos were malfunctioning in a way that the engine didn't ignite constantly as it should have. And due to this it lost power. We had to do an emergency landing back TO AIRPORT each time, so I have to disappoint you: no burning wrecks, no victims no nothing. Just a couple of shaken persons with a lot of questions. And I can tell you this, it is not pleasant to encounter these at night...
Fly safely!
cheers,
Tero
First, I'd like to say that I recent your tone, which is ridiculing and full of disbelief.
What is it about you people ?! It seems that your credibility around here equals to Zero in some people's eyes if you don't have an ATPL. Sheesh...
I will not write an essay of those incidents here, but I will tell you this.
All of them were failures of PURELY mechanical nature, and neither me or my father (who was PIC) could do anything about it.
To be more specific, the magnetos were malfunctioning in a way that the engine didn't ignite constantly as it should have. And due to this it lost power. We had to do an emergency landing back TO AIRPORT each time, so I have to disappoint you: no burning wrecks, no victims no nothing. Just a couple of shaken persons with a lot of questions. And I can tell you this, it is not pleasant to encounter these at night...
Fly safely!
cheers,
Tero
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I also had 3 engine failures in my old Toyota GTi.
Bought a brand new VW - engine burned about a liter of oil per 100 km and dispersed blue smoke all over. After a few arguments, I got a free replacement.
It has now run smoothly for 3 years.
It is just a matter of either driving something old or being a bit unlucky.
I could imagine, that some GA aircraft are not kept to the same standard as those from a major airline.
Regards
Michael
Bought a brand new VW - engine burned about a liter of oil per 100 km and dispersed blue smoke all over. After a few arguments, I got a free replacement.
It has now run smoothly for 3 years.
It is just a matter of either driving something old or being a bit unlucky.
I could imagine, that some GA aircraft are not kept to the same standard as those from a major airline.
Regards
Michael
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teropa - I didn't mean to hit your "sensitive" button. My tone was not meant to ridicue or upset you but I guess it's difficult to be light-hearted on some threads. I am not an airline pilot either but I don't share your view that they are trying to put us GA people down all the time.
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Hey teropa,
I just started an FAA IR and there's no comparison between sitting at a nice comfy desk playing Flight Sim, and sitting in a real plane (172 in my case) desparately trying to concentrate hard enough to
1. Scan the instruments
2. Interpret the instruments
3. Control the aircraft
Here's an example, flying a simple approach style pattern, trying to work a timer, and read the instructions off a piece of paper was enough to cause my scan to break for just a few seconds -- hardly exceptional for a begining IR pilot -- and in that time, the aircraft got off heading, pitched down enough to gain 10 knots, and I had to work pretty hard to get it all back in shape.
Now try talking on the radio, talking with people around you, actually looking at a real, dirty and in the life flight deck, and doing all this at 3 or 4 times the speed of what I can barely cope with in a 172.
This is the bread and butter of professional pilots.
I don't think I'd be volunteering to take the controls of that aircraft if there were other pax on board ...
I just started an FAA IR and there's no comparison between sitting at a nice comfy desk playing Flight Sim, and sitting in a real plane (172 in my case) desparately trying to concentrate hard enough to
1. Scan the instruments
2. Interpret the instruments
3. Control the aircraft
Here's an example, flying a simple approach style pattern, trying to work a timer, and read the instructions off a piece of paper was enough to cause my scan to break for just a few seconds -- hardly exceptional for a begining IR pilot -- and in that time, the aircraft got off heading, pitched down enough to gain 10 knots, and I had to work pretty hard to get it all back in shape.
Now try talking on the radio, talking with people around you, actually looking at a real, dirty and in the life flight deck, and doing all this at 3 or 4 times the speed of what I can barely cope with in a 172.
This is the bread and butter of professional pilots.
I don't think I'd be volunteering to take the controls of that aircraft if there were other pax on board ...