Could this happen: a non-pilot landing a heavy jet ??

[FlyingV]

Hi teropa,

Just one small point based on your initial post.

If I was the ATCO who received your mayday, my first instruction would most definitely NOT be to change frequency. If you get that wrong, we might have difficulty finding you again. In which case, you can forget about the rest of your scenario.

I'm not actually a traffic controller but I think I'm right ! (does anyone ever fantasize about being an ATCO )

I have never found a working version of a Rallye100 for FS2000 so I can't make any direct comparisons between real & sim

Regards,
V.

[jumpseater]

If I were in steerage and the purser asked 'did anyone not have the fish?', I would put my hand up. On getting up front assuming a/c in the cruise and stable, first thing I would do is look for the operating manuals to find where the radios are located. Then broadcast a mayday on whatever frequency was selected. Assuming its an ATC one the next thing would be to find another pilot on the same type to talk to on that frequency. If it were a company/ops frequency I would initially use that as a relay station. I would not want to try anything in manual at this stage, if the plane can do the work then let it. Assuming again that assistance will allow the a/c to be set up for an autoland thats what I would do, also asking for directions to the nearest airport with the longest runway. If the longer runway was further than the nearest runway I would go to the longer, weather and fuel permitting. I'm confident I could get the aircraft on the ground, on the airport, near the runway, again assuming everything was serviceable. I have had the opportunity to fly a real 737/75-76/ and Bae146 sim and know how hard it can be to hand fly a big a/c, particularly trying to correct an over correction, if you follow. I could get it there but the end might not be pretty

[Jetdriver]

By the time you had looked up how to operate the radios from the "operating manuals" you would have already run out of fuel !

[jumpseater]

Well I had a rough idea where the switch was before looking, however it took me 3m:40s to find the info in our manual Vol2 systems page ref 1.20.1. I can then get quickly to section 5 which deals with panel layout controls etc, so I could at least be talking to some one pretty quickly!. So Mr Driver if we only had 3 mins and 40 secs before the fuel ran out, I doubt if anyone would be of much assistance

BTW i do have fs2000, but its never been out of its box, I have a few hours gliding, a few hours light a/c and a couple of hours in the big a/c sims, and quite a few trips up front pre 9/11 hence my nick. I have been in the business for 20+ years in varied disciplines, I try not to let my ego write cheques I am unable to cash, so I feel the last sentence of my previous post was not unreasonable

[Jetdriver]

Wow 3min and 40 secs ? I have over 10K hours in Boeing jets and it usually takes me longer than that to find the right manual for what I am looking for never mind the right page. Clearly I need fltsim 2000 ( whatever that is).

[jumpseater]

JD as I said my fs2000 not even out of its box, some of my friends can't understand that!. I used to work in a Product support section and also work in an airline ops room environment, so I can usually find the right manual/MEL and page quickly for queries I have to deal with. What use I can make of the info vs the use you can make of it, is an entirely different matter! Course those I use are current on a shelf and in order, not underneath the capts coat, lunchbox, duty frees and flight bag. Those I use would usually have all the pages in the right order too!

[Pilot Pete]

Delay in replying due to 4 early starts (flying the real thing. Calm down, just a statement of fact not an expression of superiority!)

Teropa

You have impressed me with your arguments for your perceived ability to carry out the task, but you have been very defensive when others have suggested problems or their belief that you would not be able to do it.

I think what most people are trying to say is it is fine sitting in front of a sim with every thing going as you would expect and are used to, but the real world is just not quite as cosy as that. I am trying to be diplomatic in saying that I truly think you would give it a very good go and maybe you would pull it off, but, I think you need to realise that it would not be as straight forward as you appear to think it would be. Don't come back with 'why won't it be as straight forward', it's just one of those things with so many variables involved, you may be able to sit here now with what appear to be good answers to many problems, but do not under-estimate just how different it is when you sit behind the controls of the real thing for the first time and how a lot of what you thought you knew just won't come to hand. As MINDTHEGAP mentioned it is truly amazing just how difficult it all becomes once in the real world even after a full type rating course. I remember my first couple of trips and there was a LOT of intervention and prompting from the line trainer.

As for the flare at 50' during autoland I would tend to agree with Captain Stable (I think that's who said it) in that in your position I would just let it do it and drop hard onto the tarmac, you'd probably survive it even if the a/c didn't. What I did was to disconnect the autopilot, add thrust, re-establish the flare and land (nice long runway), but of course both I and the Captain spotted what it was doing very early so thrust was not all the way back at idle with the speed washing off quickly, but I would certainly not advise this in your senario. If the runway had been shorter then it would have been a G/A, as mentioned just press the button(s) and make sure the auto-throttle gives you G/A thrust (in the fully functioning 757 you can just firewall them).

Who knows the probability of a successful landing? You're not gonna get a type rated guy in the tower unless you're VERY lucky, just don't under-estimate how difficult what you are suggesting actually is to do.

PP

[teropa]

Pilot Pete,

I'd like to comment a little on me being defensive about a couple of things.

I started off with a "nice to know" topic, where I was aiming at a couple of replies from a few of you guys (pros), to correct me in the simplified list that I wrote in the first page.

Yes, I knew that I would get some of the "forget about it you lowly simmer.. you don't know first thing about real flying..." -stuff.
Even tho I have plenty of flying experience outside my "many a sad nights in front of my PC", it sure has no bearing on this issue. And maybe it shouldn't.

What I didn't know was that a majority of the replies were like that. Like one of the moderators (and some others as well) has said, I really would like to "be given a break". Instead, I've been given replies that dismiss me (and other non-pro aviation enthusiasts) without any backing up of their opinion, I've been thrown a bunch of abnormal situations, malfunctions that would happen onboard the "real thing", that I've tried to answer the best I could, and I've also been called a LIAR (inbetween the lines tho, but anyway). I would say that I have kept my cool pretty well during the course of my replies. To be PERFECTLY honest, I've tried to act a little over-friendly to keep this thread going, even though the situation hadn't really deserved that.

I know what I'm capable of, and what I could do if I had to. I'm not sure if everyone here can say that about themselves, regardless of their training. It really seems to me that the "road" of this thread is going to be bumpy if continued, and there is no point in trying to "convince" (which wasn't my aim for this topic) any of you about what could be done in the situation by a non-pro.

Now, honestly, I appreciate the _information_ given in this thread.
I also appreciate the opinions of some who have not taken their ego to "the battle". As far as I'm concerned, I'm back to lurk-mode now, and am not going to continue on this topic anymore.

Thanks everyone and fly safe!!

cheers,
Tero

[Pilot Pete]

Teropa

just to finish then, and I am not just trying to have a go as you will have seen from my previous reply,

I know what I'm capable of, and what I could do if I had to.

That sadly sums it all up. Non of us know until we are faced with the situation, we think we would react correctly and appropriately and training goes some way to enable this, but if we are honest none of us know for sure if we can handle what is thrown at us. That includes professionals and I am therefore sure it includes you.

It's all just opinions and I thought that is what you were trying to solicit.

Anyhow, all the best.

PP

[teropa]

PP,

I do agree with what you wrote, just to clarify.

All the best to you as well!

Tero

[Tight Slot]

....and they all lived happily ever after, the end.

[Dimensional]

And now -- on a completely different tangent (sorry Tight Slot) -- what about your average PPL (with or without IMC/IR)? Reading this thread has made me think, to be honest I doubt very much I'd be able to prevent the "smoking hole in ground", but would possibly the possesion of actual *piloting skills* would make up for less knowledge of systems? I'd have thought your average IMC/Instrument rated pilot would understand rate based autopilots enough to get the a/c within a few miles of a suitable airport (wahoo! radio nav ) -- but any manual flying would be much harder (read: different) bewcause of inertial effects and such -- although would another type rated pilot, same company or not, be able to tell me how to set up a simple autoland? A/T coupling would make things easier but wouldn't the thrust available on a large jet make the "constant aspect"/ point-and-power type approach possible (understanding the lag in throttle response on a high bypass turbofan)...?

Just a thought, feel free to laugh/ridicule me as you decide necessary. I doubt, and hope it'd never be necessary, but it'd be nice to know.

(Incidentally, my own knowledge of wide/narrowbody jet systems comes from a couple of old ATPL manuals -- hence any glaring errors! I think I'll stick to my 152 -- single engine, single pilot, no automatics, 1xVOR 1xADF and DME, and only 25kHz VHF COM/NAV )

Also, would it be worthwhile someone producing a sort of guide for your average PPL-level pilot/simmer to do something like this? Obviously type / a/c specific. It'd make interesting reading, even if it's of no practical value whatsoever

[PAXboy]

Teropa, I have followed this thread from start to finish and, like PP, was interested in your comment

I know what I'm capable of, and what I could do if I had to. I'm not sure if everyone here can say that about themselves, regardless of their training.

It is true that I have seen someone as unlikly as a ladies hairdresser react with calm and responsibility in a moment of great terror (not on an a/c). However, it is true that NONE of us know what we are capable of and that must, therefore, include you. You know what you know on the ground.

In your favour, I should like to add that a large part of the problem that was not acknowledged by many that responded to you, was that English is not your first language. Given that it is not, may I say what very good English your write? Some of the words that you have used may have been read in a way that you were not expecting and thus gave rise to the strongly worded replies.

For my part, just reading your words, you sounded arrogant but, given the foreign language, that may not be the case.

Happy flying, wherever it may be.

[teropa]

PAXboy,

Thanks for the compliment about my English . The truth is that I got a whopping 299 out of 299 points in my A-levels English in '98, so I guess I can at least make myself understood... Trust me, Finnish is something you wouldn't want to read, and I hear that it sounds horrible, too !

But the "tone" in my writing is a completely another thing. I know that even native speakers sometimes have trouble getting the right tone into the message. And it's always easier to interpret something the "wrong way" than the other way around, you know what I mean..

Anyways, I know that I'm not the least arrogant person in the world, and tend to "rev-up" sometimes, but my intention in this thread was not to put myself or others to the brink of explosion.

Point well taken, and I'll just retreat to my PC Dash 8, which seems to be again a whole different story!! Next week I'll be flying again IRL with our club's beloved C172 at night, and I'm _sure_ I'll enjoy it even more. What we all should keep in mind is that it's the love for aviation that keeps us going !


Best regards,
Tero

[overstress]

teropa

I have a question for you!

I am an airbus pilot with 7000 hours and I cannot land any MS flight sim without crashing.

What do you think could be the the underlying cause - my (non-pilot) brother (who owns the computer) thinks it is very funny!

PS - I seem to be OK at arcade-style PC games

[Hippy]

I'm not Teropa, but...

...(and I hope you are being sincere here), with so little to go on, it is almost impossible to say what your problem is. If you could tell us what aircraft you are trying to land, where and what shape you are trying to land it in (Speed, flaps, weight, weather, type of approach, etc...) we might be able to help.

First thing I would suggest you look at (especially if trying to fly an airliner) is weight. Flightsim will, by default, start you with full tanks. If you want to take-off, fly a cuircuit and land, off-load some fuel first. You wouldn't do it in your Airbus with full tanks, would you?

Rgds,
Hippy.

[teropa]

overstress,

Hippy read my mind. Those are the things I would look at initially.

It's pretty funny that you can't land the sim, but there could be a number of reasons to that, I'll try to list some (in addition to what Hippy said):

- the plane you are using ? most MS default aircraft are horrible, (and I'm sorry to say that most freeware a/c are equally crappy) and have little to do with their real-life counterpart. Their handling is WAY too sensitive and usually they're also too powerful. To really measure the correlation between your piloting skills and the sim peculiarities would be for you to try PIC767 (the program I've been babbling about), or even better (you being a Bus pilot): the PSS Airbus Professional A320. There are many active Bus pilots taking part in the PSS forums over at: www.avsim.com and telling folks how to use the bird. They claim that the plane is as close as it can get with a desktop sim. The same goes with PIC767. Those are the programs to judge the sim by. In short: SOME planes are just UNFLYABLE, and if you happened to try one, then you'll get a VERY wrong picture about it.

- controller sensitivies ? Too sensitive and the a/c are all over the place. Each airplane has its own RIGHT values for every controller, and to get these right, one just has to harrass other simulator pilots who are type-rated IRL and ask what settings they find closest

- realism settings. If these are put to the "easy, non-realistic" values, real pilots WILL have trouble understanding the a/c, will seem to fly on rails and performance-wise just "not there". So put the sliders all the way to right.

- Weather (did Hippy mention this). Clear all weather and try again.


hope this helps,

Tero

ps. you ARE using MSFS2002 right? The other sims are just not on par with MSFS. Although, and this would interest some of the anti-simmers here, X-plane (a desktop sim) was given FAA approval to be used as a motion-sim software, as a training tool all the way to ATPL. Those who are "in the know" claim that MSFS will perhaps get this certification already for the next version. Remains to be seen.

Interested? see: http://www.x-plane.com/FTD.html

[PK-KAR]

Here's a thing for some of you... fresh off the Sim !
Hand flying a B732 -9A and very primitive a/p...

Hi All,

After coming out of a 732 Level B, 3 Axis Sim (and I'm no pilot, just an FS2002 Simmer)... My conclusion are as follows:

MS FS2002 is NOT representative of real handling of aircraft. Although it gives you a hell of a lot of head start comparing with someone with no/few exposures to front seat flying, hand flying is a whole different ball game.

One thing I find difficult initially, is getting used to scanning instruments on FS (on a screen, hence not a lot of distance to cover while scanning instruments and looking outside). This was critical during when hand flying for landing.

The next thing is trying to get used to the flight control forces involved. One thing about FS2002 is that even under the most realistic setting, the flight controls are very forgiving. The full sim isn't forgiving. Roll maybe easy to play with (too easy), yaw is difficult because you're using it during the most critical phase.... landing... and the someone needs to get used to in order not to make themselves sick is pitch. Finding the right trim setting needs attention.

After reading what Jetguy and Skipper said about pitch and pilot induced , I thought, they maybe right, but I was confident that I could attain smooth controls... during my first take off and landing on the 732 Sim, I struggled to control pitch, roll was easy, and rudder was hard to control but not beyond hope. Pitch was at times, beyond hope.

I did manage to land the 732 safely the first time but it was one hell of a struggle. The fact that I did not decide to go around was short of a miracle. The second cycle was worse. It wasn't until they told me what I did wrong that I got a smooth flight... take off, cruise and landing...

After a few goes , during a cycle, managed to do handle engine fire, failure in hyd sys A and B, and landed the plane in mild turbulence. This is not unlikely in a "walk into a cockpit to find dead pilots" scenario... But without the previous goes, I would have crashed... albeit within the airport grounds where emergency services would be on standby...

So there goes my opinion on this matter. Hand landing a 732 for a non pilot is hard... very hard... For simmers, they have a better chance if they respect the forces involved, though expect very very heavy damage if you don't think ahead. Prop pilots could do it if they think jet speeds and think even further ahead and remember the pitch sensitivity.

Remember, the words used here is COULD and CHANCE... But as far as I am concerned, it was one hell of a night ! Thanks to the airline who'd wanted to prove this point, gave me the chance and wished to be undisclosed.

[teropa]

Hi all!

I would like to bring this thread back up now. The reason ?

Well, I still do think that given a nice weather and otherwise good circumstances, an experienced non-licensed simulator "pilot" could pull this off.

I'm not going to spend any more time in trying to convince people with minute details about every other system that I know how to use in _theory" and in a pc sim (the pic767).

But I will say this. Yesterday I spent 2½ hours in a full motion B757 simulator. So did a friend of mine who has never even steered a Cessna for real. End result ? Many successful hand-flown approaches and landings, with and without the f/d. Some 30 and 45 degree turn practice and a couple of stalls. Plus some other stuff. What is interesting is that neither me or my friend had trouble in keeping the jet in a somewhat stabilized ILS approach (max dev. ½ dot) manually, and then performing a succesfull landing. Also, we didn't use the autopilot to stabilize the approaches, but everything from FLAPS1 was done manually, with A/T off as well.

I had LOTS of fun (and I know I wouldn't have any fun in the situation that would result from both pilots becoming incapacitated), and I'm still not pretending to be anything I'm not. I realize that the real pilots do not train to fly from A to B safely, they train to do it SAFELY in the most disturbing weather with severe malfunctions present as well. But..., now I know what the almost real thing feels like... . Our host, a 757 training captain, told us that the sim they are using feels like 99.5% real. I'll let him be the judge of that...

Comments anyone ? And let's keep this interesting and civil, heheh...

rgds
Tero

[BOAC]

I am an airbus pilot with 7000 hours and I cannot land any MS flight sim without crashing

Course, we are all assuming he can land.................!!