Could this happen: a non-pilot landing a heavy jet ??
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Finland
Age: 44
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
kabz,
If you'll read through the posts in this thread, you will find that we weren't talking about flying the beast in IMC hands on. Not by a long shot.
The conversation is about whether or not a non-pilot, who has extensive knowledge on a/c systems (i.e. an avid simmer, engineer perhaps) would be able to use the _automatics_ to guide a large transport category aircraft down to a safe landing.
The more I think about this and read the stuff people put in here, the more certain I become about being able to pull it off... Not trying to fish for flames or such, just telling what I _honestly_ think.
cheers,
Tero
p.s. I hope you enjoy the topic tho.. I know I do
If you'll read through the posts in this thread, you will find that we weren't talking about flying the beast in IMC hands on. Not by a long shot.
The conversation is about whether or not a non-pilot, who has extensive knowledge on a/c systems (i.e. an avid simmer, engineer perhaps) would be able to use the _automatics_ to guide a large transport category aircraft down to a safe landing.
The more I think about this and read the stuff people put in here, the more certain I become about being able to pull it off... Not trying to fish for flames or such, just telling what I _honestly_ think.
cheers,
Tero
p.s. I hope you enjoy the topic tho.. I know I do
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: straight forward, there you go
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have seen pilots who are fresh out of 8 weeks training and, well they landed but had to be talked down until the last 3000 feet. Why do you think that all operators have a safetypilot up front when somebody is fressh out of training. If somebody with full conversion course behind them can´t do it without a safety pilot or instructions, WHY do ypu think you could do it. Many pilots with thousands of hours often end up in a situation like: What´s it doing now?? With all their knowledge and their experience they sometimes are not as much in the loop as they should. It takes experience (which we most often have in the left seat) to be able to land an a/c safely. When you are in the cockpit doing your job you have probably gained some experience, which is essencial to a big factor we pilots have to adjust to , STRESS. With experience this becomes less intrusive in your work. When you, a typical sim-knowitall sits there and everything that you thaught you knew isn´t there and everything becomes faster than you would expect, then things start to go wrong. Ideally, like you said, wether cond. and systemwise isn´t going to happen. There is always things that change, aren´t like you would expect(like in the sim.) I just think you are arrogant to say these things, because experience tells me it is going to end badly.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Finland
Age: 44
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mindthegap,
Oh, once again someone who sees me as arrogant because of a conversation that tries to tell that atps are only mortal. Why does this discussion tell us that. Because of the fact that another mortal could use the _automatics_... say with me: a u t o m a t i c s, to land the freakin' plane.
You can keep your opinion to yourself if you have nothing else to back it up than just "things start to go wrong". There have been opinions here that are PRO (with good justification) and also CON (as well with some backin up). I think that I have thus far offered some pretty darn good answers to the questions asked about various things. Why don't you just list the things that start suddenly go all wrong, and I'll see what I have to say about those, ok?
Otherwise...
Tero
p.s. you type rated in 757/767 ?
Oh, once again someone who sees me as arrogant because of a conversation that tries to tell that atps are only mortal. Why does this discussion tell us that. Because of the fact that another mortal could use the _automatics_... say with me: a u t o m a t i c s, to land the freakin' plane.
You can keep your opinion to yourself if you have nothing else to back it up than just "things start to go wrong". There have been opinions here that are PRO (with good justification) and also CON (as well with some backin up). I think that I have thus far offered some pretty darn good answers to the questions asked about various things. Why don't you just list the things that start suddenly go all wrong, and I'll see what I have to say about those, ok?
Otherwise...
Tero
p.s. you type rated in 757/767 ?
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Who can say?
Posts: 1,700
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good discussion (mostly) so far.
Teropa, much of the situation you pose so far I think would work.
The two most likely snags that I can see are:-
PS Yes, I'm 757/767 type rated.
Teropa, much of the situation you pose so far I think would work.
The two most likely snags that I can see are:-
- In a case of double pilot incapacitation, the cabin crew would be very unlikely to ask if there was another pilot on board, mainly to avoid seriously upsetting all the pax. If they knew there was one on board (which is quite probable) they would have a quiet word with him. They would never ask if there was an experienced FltSimmer on board. Therefore you'd be out of the loop.
- Assuming you get into the flight deck, in most parts of the world it would be almost impossible for an ATC unit to locate and bring to the mike a suitably type-rated pilot. Assuming that they can, time is going to be very short. You won't have much fuel to hang around while they bring a guy in from his gardening. If he's not from the same company as your aircraft, he quite possibly won't know the equipment and layout of your flight deck. (e.g. Most British 757's have paddle switches to engage the A/P - American versions have pushbuttons)
PS Yes, I'm 757/767 type rated.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Gatport Airwick
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Engine Failures.............
On a slight tangent here but bare with me........
You say you have had 3 engine failures that have all resulted in a recovery to an airport. I assume that this occured in a single engine aircraft?
Always thought that an engine failure was the situation when the prop stopped turning and left you with no other choice but to put it down in a field......... a engine malfunction which your magneto problem sounds like doesn´t really constitute a "failure"
I may be way off the mark here but it looks like you are trying to glamourise a pretty insignificant event for your own benefit - true/false?
Im sure that 90% of flying instructors have had some form of malfunction of an engine at some point during their work, alternator failures, mags dropping off etc - but probably only 1% have actually had one engine failure let alone 3.........
Anyone gonna shoot me down on this one?
You say you have had 3 engine failures that have all resulted in a recovery to an airport. I assume that this occured in a single engine aircraft?
Always thought that an engine failure was the situation when the prop stopped turning and left you with no other choice but to put it down in a field......... a engine malfunction which your magneto problem sounds like doesn´t really constitute a "failure"
I may be way off the mark here but it looks like you are trying to glamourise a pretty insignificant event for your own benefit - true/false?
Im sure that 90% of flying instructors have had some form of malfunction of an engine at some point during their work, alternator failures, mags dropping off etc - but probably only 1% have actually had one engine failure let alone 3.........
Anyone gonna shoot me down on this one?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Finland
Age: 44
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Captain Stable,
Thanks for the opinion!
I agree 100% with what you say. Although the discussion was not about whether the flight simmer would be invited to the flight deck or not. That's the only "snag" I have .. heh
On another note, I would be very interested to know if the "approach" I took to Pilot Pete's imagined scenario of a/c commencing flare @ 50ft with throttles (a/t) idle (using autoland).
Could you see my reply to Pete and see what would go wrong/right etc ? No one has commented on that yet...
tunneler,
For crying out loud!!
If it makes you feel better, I'll edit the post where I say "failure". This is a matter of semantics !! Regardless of what I say, the situations ended up in a "hurried" landing into nearest airport with engine giving partial/no power (taking turns).
I almost couldn't believe what I just read. Honestly, seems that some (YOU this time) are really being wound up about this scenario, enough to just dismiss what I have said, to make me look fool enough to easily ridicule the scenario in question.
I've got news for you: it ain't gonna happen. If the discussion is not enough for you (in the means of virtual "slaughter" of a wannabe, that's what you're aiming at, aren't you?), then please post your stupid comments elsewhere.
Tero
ps. have you ever seen an idling prop engine (or jet engine for that matter) give anymore power than a full-stop one ?
EDIT: Sorry about that Tunneler. I just got a little carried away. The situations were real and didn't feel good at all. I just don't like the implications, even if they were done in a polite way.
Thanks for the opinion!
I agree 100% with what you say. Although the discussion was not about whether the flight simmer would be invited to the flight deck or not
. That's the only "snag" I have .. hehOn another note, I would be very interested to know if the "approach" I took to Pilot Pete's imagined scenario of a/c commencing flare @ 50ft with throttles (a/t) idle (using autoland).
Could you see my reply to Pete and see what would go wrong/right etc ? No one has commented on that yet...
tunneler,
For crying out loud!!
If it makes you feel better, I'll edit the post where I say "failure". This is a matter of semantics !! Regardless of what I say, the situations ended up in a "hurried" landing into nearest airport with engine giving partial/no power (taking turns).
I almost couldn't believe what I just read. Honestly, seems that some (YOU this time) are really being wound up about this scenario, enough to just dismiss what I have said, to make me look fool enough to easily ridicule the scenario in question.
I've got news for you: it ain't gonna happen. If the discussion is not enough for you (in the means of virtual "slaughter" of a wannabe, that's what you're aiming at, aren't you?), then please post your stupid comments elsewhere.
Tero
ps. have you ever seen an idling prop engine (or jet engine for that matter) give anymore power than a full-stop one ?
EDIT: Sorry about that Tunneler. I just got a little carried away. The situations were real and didn't feel good at all. I just don't like the implications, even if they were done in a polite way.
Last edited by teropa; 23rd Aug 2002 at 10:10.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Who can say?
Posts: 1,700
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, I saw that. My advice in such a situation would be to accept the failure, the (very) hard landing and just get it close to where the fire trucks are waiting patiently. Yes, you might damage the aircraft. But you've just saved the lives of the pax. CC will have them braced anyway, and on stopping they're going to blow the slides and get everyone off pronto. No point in messing around adding power, trying for a nice landing and ending up wandering through the perimeter fence, across the duck pond and the golf course, through the village pub and down onto the motorway...
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Middle East / UK
Age: 45
Posts: 520
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
teropa
Don't even know why I am bothering. 
To go around on a B757/B767 all you need do is hit the go around switches. The aircraft will annunciate "G/A, G/A" will rotate to 15deg on its own and will apply power to satisfy a 2000ft/min RoC. It will maintain the instantanious track when the switch was pushed. If your systems knowledge is so good, why didn't you know this?? Also by the time you disarmed the speed brake and did all the things you are talking about, you would be on the ground! You do not need to retract the speed brake, if you apply power (the exact amount escapes me) they will autostow. Oh and another thing that springs to mind is that to get the spoilers to extend on the ground, you need to select reverse thrust. Normaly do that on a go around do you??
As for your 3 engine failures, bad luck old boy! I have been flying for 8 years and have had one stop during an aerobatic maneouver. (Was our own fault) Which duely restarted. Talking to a captain yesterday who has been flying for 30years and has NEVER had one fail. So I guess if you did get you hands on this B767, given your track record, it wouldn't be too long before an engine failed, and you had that to contend with too!!!!
Happy (simulated) landings.
Eff Oh
To go around on a B757/B767 all you need do is hit the go around switches. The aircraft will annunciate "G/A, G/A" will rotate to 15deg on its own and will apply power to satisfy a 2000ft/min RoC. It will maintain the instantanious track when the switch was pushed. If your systems knowledge is so good, why didn't you know this?? Also by the time you disarmed the speed brake and did all the things you are talking about, you would be on the ground! You do not need to retract the speed brake, if you apply power (the exact amount escapes me) they will autostow. Oh and another thing that springs to mind is that to get the spoilers to extend on the ground, you need to select reverse thrust. Normaly do that on a go around do you??
As for your 3 engine failures, bad luck old boy! I have been flying for 8 years and have had one stop during an aerobatic maneouver. (Was our own fault) Which duely restarted. Talking to a captain yesterday who has been flying for 30years and has NEVER had one fail. So I guess if you did get you hands on this B767, given your track record, it wouldn't be too long before an engine failed, and you had that to contend with too!!!!
Happy (simulated) landings.
Eff Oh
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Who can say?
Posts: 1,700
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you've got to that stage, you wouldn't carry out a go-around. Accept the crash landing.
PS, Would you give the guy a break? He's not saying he knows everything. He's just trying to ascertain whether he knows enough to be able to land it in an emergency. He's an enthusiast. We were all enthusiasts before we became pilots. We're not gods. We know how much we know, and we know enough to see where the gaps in our knowledge are. Teropa doesn't know enough from FS to know where the gaps are - that's not his fault.
PS, Would you give the guy a break? He's not saying he knows everything. He's just trying to ascertain whether he knows enough to be able to land it in an emergency. He's an enthusiast. We were all enthusiasts before we became pilots. We're not gods. We know how much we know, and we know enough to see where the gaps in our knowledge are. Teropa doesn't know enough from FS to know where the gaps are - that's not his fault.
Last edited by Captain Stable; 23rd Aug 2002 at 10:28.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: The Pointy End
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
teropa,your comment about the option to not use the FMC for descent and lateral navigation would be the safest and therefore the most likely to achieve a safe landing in the scenario in your original question.
I have to agree with tunneler re the engine failure. What you have experienced was definitely a malfunction but IMHO, not dire.
If you have doubt about idling jet, or piston engines producing thrust, let me assure you, they do. On the 757 we use RB211 engines and we line pilots call it the “racing snake” because it won’t slow down. If we’re ferrying an A/C we have to use speedbrake on the G/S to stop it accelerating. Only when we get Flap 30 does the A/C stop trying to run away with you.
I have only had one real engine failure when I was instructing. The windmilling engine was ok, but then that prop stopped turning and the drag increase was alarming. I’m rather pleased I was doing some stalling exercises with a student so we had lots of altitude to play with.
As an aside all of the 757/767 fleet (I believe) only has the pushbutton type autopilots. In fact the only time I have ever come across the paddle type, was when we had an old Monarch 757 on loan and that has since vanished. All you have to do to engage an autopilot is push the paddle up.
I have to agree with tunneler re the engine failure. What you have experienced was definitely a malfunction but IMHO, not dire.
If you have doubt about idling jet, or piston engines producing thrust, let me assure you, they do. On the 757 we use RB211 engines and we line pilots call it the “racing snake” because it won’t slow down. If we’re ferrying an A/C we have to use speedbrake on the G/S to stop it accelerating. Only when we get Flap 30 does the A/C stop trying to run away with you.
I have only had one real engine failure when I was instructing. The windmilling engine was ok, but then that prop stopped turning and the drag increase was alarming. I’m rather pleased I was doing some stalling exercises with a student so we had lots of altitude to play with.
As an aside all of the 757/767 fleet (I believe) only has the pushbutton type autopilots. In fact the only time I have ever come across the paddle type, was when we had an old Monarch 757 on loan and that has since vanished. All you have to do to engage an autopilot is push the paddle up.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: The Pointy End
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Captain Stable,my mistake. I meant all of the 757/767's that I currently fly have buttons and not paddles. (I work for a UK company) I seem to remember that the paddle version we had on loan didn’t have the auto arm function for the two additional autopilots for an autoland. We had to engage them manually.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Who can say?
Posts: 1,700
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep - that autoarm is the same for all paddle-type. <sigh> I didn't become a pilot to have to work!
Dunno why BA specifically ordered them like that. Presumably the Monarch one you flew they had acquired from BA.
Dunno why BA specifically ordered them like that. Presumably the Monarch one you flew they had acquired from BA.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Manchester, England
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ef Oh - dont want to pick on you but you've made a clanger again. You mention that upon touchdown, with the Speedbreaks in armed (as would be the case), we need to select reverse thrust for the spoilers to deploy - not so. Thats the situation in an RTO, with the lever not in the armed position.
In a normal landing, with the lever in armed, the spoilers come up and do their job after the gear is on the ground (not tilted) and the thust levers are at idle.
ref vol 2 9.20.8
Cheers,
In a normal landing, with the lever in armed, the spoilers come up and do their job after the gear is on the ground (not tilted) and the thust levers are at idle.
ref vol 2 9.20.8
Cheers,
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 865
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tight slot, I reckon you are correct re the speedbrakes, but dont forget that the original point is still irrelevant (i.e. they don't need to be disarmed), as if they were to deploy on touchdown, they will automatically retract when thrust is added for a late go around.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How about putting it all to manual and flying speed /alpha/ attitude controls speed/power controls RoD etc with flap selection when told - keep it simple and get him/her correctly configured at ToD/ glide slope/ 2000 ft/7nm and get him in the correct steady descent. Or does this assume some PILOTING skills!!
It's worked on the (few) ac I've flown
Or am I being too simplistic - don't all shout at once
Just remember, flying isn't difficult; operating is!
Awaiting the tirade
It's worked on the (few) ac I've flown
Or am I being too simplistic - don't all shout at once
Just remember, flying isn't difficult; operating is!
Awaiting the tirade
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Who can say?
Posts: 1,700
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Putting it all to manual???? For a non-pilot? I think you'll find that everyone will agree that under the situation suggested, the passengers' best hope is to keep as much of the automatics as humanly possible, if not, then more!
Putting it all in manual and having him hand-fly it his brain is going to be so full that he's either going to be working so hard to fly it he won't be able to talk back to you, or he'll ba talking nineteen to the dozen whilst the machine goes into a spiral dive.
Putting it all in manual and having him hand-fly it his brain is going to be so full that he's either going to be working so hard to fly it he won't be able to talk back to you, or he'll ba talking nineteen to the dozen whilst the machine goes into a spiral dive.
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just like to say thanks and well done to all for an interesting, thought-provoking, and (ingeneral) good-tempered discussion. I suspect quite a few observers are learning a lot here.....