About Oxford A.T need to make up my mind
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About Oxford A.T need to make up my mind
Hi there !
I am in a battle with myself because I am seriously thinking about going to OAT.
I need to know if anyone here who whent to OAT in recent years are still looking for a job ?
Did it help you in your job search to have OAT on your CV ?
This is a serious deal for me because I am selling my flat and mortgaging my mothers one, but I feel that this is what I must do.
Now or never and such thoughts, If you don't play you don't win blabla.
Any informations would be appreciated preferably from former OAT student.
You can e-mail me personally if you like just hit the "private message" button
If anyone here from Iceland have studied there, those informations would also be appreciated
Thanks in advance
Proxus
I am in a battle with myself because I am seriously thinking about going to OAT.
I need to know if anyone here who whent to OAT in recent years are still looking for a job ?
Did it help you in your job search to have OAT on your CV ?
This is a serious deal for me because I am selling my flat and mortgaging my mothers one, but I feel that this is what I must do.
Now or never and such thoughts, If you don't play you don't win blabla.
Any informations would be appreciated preferably from former OAT student.
You can e-mail me personally if you like just hit the "private message" button
If anyone here from Iceland have studied there, those informations would also be appreciated
Thanks in advance
Proxus
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Its all about supply and demand - but fate can catch you out. I am an old GOAT (1970) and I recently met a OAT student whose potential employment prospects had plummetted following the industry downturn
You've got to get the timing right and not leave yourself qualication rich and cash poor.
You've got to get the timing right and not leave yourself qualication rich and cash poor.
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Its a tough one. Many on this forum over the past few years have indicated that OATS is the place to go, and as many (if not more) say the OATS does not do anything for you. I read a topic a few months ago, and some airline bod said it did make some sort of difference.
But, when no-one, or very few are hiring, what difference will it really make? My gut feel is that if i could afford it, I would go. I would add though, to not spend all your dosh on Oxford. Budget that you might have to invest 20K to do a 737 rating to get into Ryanair, or Easy Jet, and then see if you can still afford it. Do not rely on OATS saying that 'airlines will be calling you'.
Off topic, the APP seems bleedin expensive. I would prefer just the straight integrated course which they don't seem to do anylonger.
But, when no-one, or very few are hiring, what difference will it really make? My gut feel is that if i could afford it, I would go. I would add though, to not spend all your dosh on Oxford. Budget that you might have to invest 20K to do a 737 rating to get into Ryanair, or Easy Jet, and then see if you can still afford it. Do not rely on OATS saying that 'airlines will be calling you'.
Off topic, the APP seems bleedin expensive. I would prefer just the straight integrated course which they don't seem to do anylonger.
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OAT is a good school. It is very expensive compared to the others, and not having qualified from any other school I couldn't say if it was worth the extra cost or not. I was happy with my training, but it hasn't helped in finding work. At the moment, experience is by far and away more important than which school you trained at, and if things don't improve, all that extra money may be better spent on extra hours or something like an instructor rating.
OAT do have something of a reputation for substantial bull**** to get you to part with your cash and sign up (it is something the marketing department excels at), and I would be very wary of any promises made about helping you get a job. The careers development guy is a nice chap, but has an unhealthy preoccupation with Ryanair and this seems to be the limit of assistance current graduates will get. Don't expect anybody to place you in a job, it will only come from your own efforts. Don't fall for the old line of "come to Oxford and we'll help you get a job" - they can't and probably won't.
The current APP scheme is very expensive, far more expensive than the course I graduated from, and I'm not sure what OAT can promise to justify the extra expense. A fancy selection procedure to get on it may only be more marketing to give it an exclusive appeal and back up claims of better employment prospects.
The instruction - ground and flying - is generally very good, but like anywhere else, there are individuals who don't meet the grade. You may be unlucky and get a poor instructor who will cause you a great deal of frustration. The organisation/planning can be poor and this is generally where the frustration kicks in, but now the school is unable to rely on healthy numbers of sponsored cadets and must make its money form self-sponsored students (hence the price rise I imagine), things may improve to your benefit. The marketing department can no longer trade on its airline sponsored connections.
If you go to OAT you won't be disappointed by the training, but you may find a huge gap between reality and what the marketing people promise you today. Proceed with caution.
OAT do have something of a reputation for substantial bull**** to get you to part with your cash and sign up (it is something the marketing department excels at), and I would be very wary of any promises made about helping you get a job. The careers development guy is a nice chap, but has an unhealthy preoccupation with Ryanair and this seems to be the limit of assistance current graduates will get. Don't expect anybody to place you in a job, it will only come from your own efforts. Don't fall for the old line of "come to Oxford and we'll help you get a job" - they can't and probably won't.
The current APP scheme is very expensive, far more expensive than the course I graduated from, and I'm not sure what OAT can promise to justify the extra expense. A fancy selection procedure to get on it may only be more marketing to give it an exclusive appeal and back up claims of better employment prospects.
The instruction - ground and flying - is generally very good, but like anywhere else, there are individuals who don't meet the grade. You may be unlucky and get a poor instructor who will cause you a great deal of frustration. The organisation/planning can be poor and this is generally where the frustration kicks in, but now the school is unable to rely on healthy numbers of sponsored cadets and must make its money form self-sponsored students (hence the price rise I imagine), things may improve to your benefit. The marketing department can no longer trade on its airline sponsored connections.
If you go to OAT you won't be disappointed by the training, but you may find a huge gap between reality and what the marketing people promise you today. Proceed with caution.
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I dont think it is worth selling your flat and mortgaging your mum's just to go to OATS, there are other options as previously mentioned having OATS on your CV does not guarantee you anything.
Have you passed your class one medical yet?
MJR
Have you passed your class one medical yet?
MJR
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Not that I know what I am talking about but my general impression I have is that employers will be keen to look at two things:
1) The bit that says you passed the ATPLs first time
2) The thing that says you passed the CPL/IR first time.
Nee, three things!
3) Your logbook so they can see you have done some decent flying in between.
At the end of the day. Does anybody give a hoot what school(s) you trained at?
BTW, is it coincidence that the two major schools - Bristol and Oxford - are located to provide some subliminal association with the two of the top three universities?
1) The bit that says you passed the ATPLs first time
2) The thing that says you passed the CPL/IR first time.
Nee, three things!
3) Your logbook so they can see you have done some decent flying in between.
At the end of the day. Does anybody give a hoot what school(s) you trained at?
BTW, is it coincidence that the two major schools - Bristol and Oxford - are located to provide some subliminal association with the two of the top three universities?
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If you are going Modular then my advice is look around since there are some really good little outfits that are in business. If you want to do the integrated course then that narrows your options but look around. The only things that matters at the moment are hours and where you did your training comes second to that.
The post graduation career help is not as extensive as you might think but if the market was flush with jobs then things might be different. Certainly at the moment the responsibility of finding employment rests solely on you.
I was pleased with the instruction that I got at Oxford and it is probably just as good as you would get at any other good FTO. However today's training system is far less comprehensive then it was a few decades ago. I am doing an FI course and I am lucky to have a senior CAAFU examiner teaching me a lot of the groundschool and it is evident that gaps are appearing in the way pilots are trained nowadays. Compared to the past it seems that if you collect enough Frosties tokens then even you can get your own Frozen ATPL!!! A worrying trend indeed!
So in otherwords the training at Oxford is good. Not poor or fantastic but if you put the effort in then you will achieve what you want.
The post graduation career help is not as extensive as you might think but if the market was flush with jobs then things might be different. Certainly at the moment the responsibility of finding employment rests solely on you.
I was pleased with the instruction that I got at Oxford and it is probably just as good as you would get at any other good FTO. However today's training system is far less comprehensive then it was a few decades ago. I am doing an FI course and I am lucky to have a senior CAAFU examiner teaching me a lot of the groundschool and it is evident that gaps are appearing in the way pilots are trained nowadays. Compared to the past it seems that if you collect enough Frosties tokens then even you can get your own Frozen ATPL!!! A worrying trend indeed!
So in otherwords the training at Oxford is good. Not poor or fantastic but if you put the effort in then you will achieve what you want.
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Everyone says that the school makes no difference, but ultimately of course it does - is there difference in graduates between Oxford/Cambridge and an ex-Polytechnic - of course there is. At the end of the day, both have a piece of paper saying BSc/BA on it - but the actual quality of the qualification if hugely different. Airlines need to know, not only that u have the licence, but also the quality of the training - there is an old saying, and I have yet to find the exception - you get what you pay for!
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Everyone says that the school makes no difference, but ultimately of course it does.
For modular, surely the discussion is nearly irrelevant as you already need a PPL and 150 hours before starting the CPL as structured hour building is considered a crucial part of a low-houred ATPL(F)ers CV (so I am told). For the theory stuff: well you are at home for the vast majority of the time and you either know the stuff or you don't (I imagine). It would hard to argue that a first time passer has had a lower quality of training than an Oxford somebody who needed to retake two subjects.
I say there boy
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Gareth,
That's not a good analogy, because Oxford and Cambridge get to cream off the brightest A-Level students in the country. Quality students in = quality graduates out. That's why they command the respect they do.
OATS on the other hand, does not select its self-sponsored students: if you can pay you're in. The respect that they have in the industry comes from being BA's school of choice, being around a long time and being one of just two domestic integrated course providers.
At the end of the day, an Oxford integrated course will cost you at least £20,000 more than a run-of-the-mill modular course, the new APP course much more. However all people graduating with a CPL/IR and 200-ish hours currently end up in the same dole queue. Is it really worth spending all that extra money just to get to the same place as your non-OATS contemporaries?
Note that this has always been the case - even when times were good only a tiny proportion of self-sponsored OATS graduates were recommended by OATS to airlines, and only a small proportion more were hired by airlines with no further experience, just on the strength of having gone to OATS.
You have to ask yourself whether you could better spend all that extra cash on an instructor rating, maybe on the ATP scheme, (dare I mention it) a type rating, or even just making your training debts more manageable so you can afford a few more tins of beans a month or a slightly bigger caravan when you're earning a paltry instructor's salary and repaying those huge loans?
I have no real axe to grind with OATS, they run a quality integrated course that sells well amongst their primary audience: airlines running cadet schemes. At the end of the day they are running a business: when this source of income dries up as it has recently, they are going to look to other markets, and one of these is playing on their reputation to fill their expensive courses with enthusiastic self-sponsored students looking for that mythical OATS-factor on their CVs. I personally think that anyone who is prepared to burn large amounts of money on the off-chance that they might get an airline recommendation, is either loaded, ill-informed, or both. Because after graduating in the cold light of day most find that the £20,000+ extra has bought them little, if any, advantage.
cheers!
foggy
That's not a good analogy, because Oxford and Cambridge get to cream off the brightest A-Level students in the country. Quality students in = quality graduates out. That's why they command the respect they do.
OATS on the other hand, does not select its self-sponsored students: if you can pay you're in. The respect that they have in the industry comes from being BA's school of choice, being around a long time and being one of just two domestic integrated course providers.
At the end of the day, an Oxford integrated course will cost you at least £20,000 more than a run-of-the-mill modular course, the new APP course much more. However all people graduating with a CPL/IR and 200-ish hours currently end up in the same dole queue. Is it really worth spending all that extra money just to get to the same place as your non-OATS contemporaries?
Note that this has always been the case - even when times were good only a tiny proportion of self-sponsored OATS graduates were recommended by OATS to airlines, and only a small proportion more were hired by airlines with no further experience, just on the strength of having gone to OATS.
You have to ask yourself whether you could better spend all that extra cash on an instructor rating, maybe on the ATP scheme, (dare I mention it) a type rating, or even just making your training debts more manageable so you can afford a few more tins of beans a month or a slightly bigger caravan when you're earning a paltry instructor's salary and repaying those huge loans?
I have no real axe to grind with OATS, they run a quality integrated course that sells well amongst their primary audience: airlines running cadet schemes. At the end of the day they are running a business: when this source of income dries up as it has recently, they are going to look to other markets, and one of these is playing on their reputation to fill their expensive courses with enthusiastic self-sponsored students looking for that mythical OATS-factor on their CVs. I personally think that anyone who is prepared to burn large amounts of money on the off-chance that they might get an airline recommendation, is either loaded, ill-informed, or both. Because after graduating in the cold light of day most find that the £20,000+ extra has bought them little, if any, advantage.
cheers!
foggy
Last edited by foghorn; 27th Jan 2003 at 13:02.
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Foggy,
You miss my point. OK, let me clarify a few things.
Firstly, don't be fooled that Oxford/Cambridge entry is based on ability - like everything else - if your face fits - and you need to have substantial funds to get into Oxford (I know!) (Note, press coverage of girl with 4 a's - refused - she didn;t have the funds!)
Secondly, the issue of which school is the best is, to many degrees slightly irrelevant. THe key to success is to make yourself marketable - it is not just a case of having the license - you have got to offer what the airlines want. The airlines clearly have a preference for Oxford Graduates - like it or not - that's the way the cookie crumbles. Now, fundementally, when looking at the license issue - there is more to getting the license than being given a bit of paper. It's not what you've got it's how you've got it that the airlines are interested in. They know that to have satisfied the license requirements theoretically means you are up to the job. So, they need to differeniate the endless number of candidates in one way or another. Don;t kid yourself that just cos you have a license means you are on a level playing field. In theory, yes you are, but how many theory books are written based on real life - not many.
Now, the point of my pointless drivel, is that in acheiving the license you need to also be able to demonstrate, on paper, to a potential employer that you are worth interviewing - if Oxford has the upper hand - go for it.
And finally, the APP course is not that expensive - £60k plus accommodation - not a whole load more than Jerez or Cabair - and you get that competitive advantage - o and a few more flying hours, and a jet orientation course ...... Like I say, you get what you pay for.
You miss my point. OK, let me clarify a few things.
Firstly, don't be fooled that Oxford/Cambridge entry is based on ability - like everything else - if your face fits - and you need to have substantial funds to get into Oxford (I know!) (Note, press coverage of girl with 4 a's - refused - she didn;t have the funds!)
Secondly, the issue of which school is the best is, to many degrees slightly irrelevant. THe key to success is to make yourself marketable - it is not just a case of having the license - you have got to offer what the airlines want. The airlines clearly have a preference for Oxford Graduates - like it or not - that's the way the cookie crumbles. Now, fundementally, when looking at the license issue - there is more to getting the license than being given a bit of paper. It's not what you've got it's how you've got it that the airlines are interested in. They know that to have satisfied the license requirements theoretically means you are up to the job. So, they need to differeniate the endless number of candidates in one way or another. Don;t kid yourself that just cos you have a license means you are on a level playing field. In theory, yes you are, but how many theory books are written based on real life - not many.
Now, the point of my pointless drivel, is that in acheiving the license you need to also be able to demonstrate, on paper, to a potential employer that you are worth interviewing - if Oxford has the upper hand - go for it.
And finally, the APP course is not that expensive - £60k plus accommodation - not a whole load more than Jerez or Cabair - and you get that competitive advantage - o and a few more flying hours, and a jet orientation course ...... Like I say, you get what you pay for.
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Garethjk22 Your comments re Oxford/Cambridge are nonsense.Just because the media pick on some State school person who did not get into Magdalen College Oxford despite being 'forecast 3/4 A Grade A levels,you seem to think it was cos her face did not fit. All prospective students are forcast A Grades otherwise they would not be invited to Oxford in the first place.
They know what makes a suitable person to stand the rigours of Oxford in the same way as CTC and others know what they think will make the right pilot. Oxford University is cheaper cos you can spend all your 3/4 years in Hall ,only£1850 pa which is a lot cheaper than being in the private rented sector after the first year in most Universities. You sound like you have a big chip on your shoulder !?
There are only a certain number of places to go around at Oxford and they want the best despite the interference from people like Blair and Brown.
They know what makes a suitable person to stand the rigours of Oxford in the same way as CTC and others know what they think will make the right pilot. Oxford University is cheaper cos you can spend all your 3/4 years in Hall ,only£1850 pa which is a lot cheaper than being in the private rented sector after the first year in most Universities. You sound like you have a big chip on your shoulder !?
There are only a certain number of places to go around at Oxford and they want the best despite the interference from people like Blair and Brown.
I say there boy
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Gareth,
As a Cambridge graduate myself, I'm not fooled by Oxbridge entry requirements. The girl to whom you refer (Laura Spence?) was actually rejected after interview by Oxford, it had nothing to do with funds. Gordon Brown made a big thing of it by suggesting that she had been discriminated against because she was northern and went to a state comprehensive school (ditto both for me - I still got to Cambridge - but I digress). Until universities are free to set their own fees, fees will not be a major factor in choice of universities. Cost of living, yes, but that's highest in London, not Oxford or Cambridge.
Anyway back on the main point, I completely agree that to get a job you have to make yourself marketable. However with respect I just think you are misguided in considering OATS as a way of obtaining marketability, and seriously question its value for money.
I do not believe that an OATS integrated CPL/IR with 200-ish hours is significantly more marketable than a modular CPL/IR with 200-ish hours. If it is then the benefit is not very significant, and only for a very small proportion of the best graduates. The rest of the Oxford 'upper hand' to which you refer is just what their marketing department would have you believe. It's certainly not twenty grand's worth of upper hand.
As for real life. Well, real life is that neither CPL/IR is worth much at the moment. Any hiring that is being done is at experience levels well beyond 200 hours. In fact it was always so in by far the majority of cases. Getting the licence is just the first step, the majority need experience after that before airlines will even give your CV a second look. And once you've got a thousand or so instructional hours under your belt, no-one is interested which school you went to.
Hence why I think OATS (and self-sponsoring at other integrated schools in most cases) is a waste of money.
If I were convinced that the OATS name was going to give me an edge (and IMHO I'd be misguided), I'd do a back-to-back OATS modular course and save me money in the process.
If I were convinced that doing an integrated course was going to give me an edge, (which is probably closer to the truth, but still not very significant, IMHO) I'd go to BAe Jerez and save money.
However at the end of the day it's your money to do with what you will.
cheers!
foggy.
As a Cambridge graduate myself, I'm not fooled by Oxbridge entry requirements. The girl to whom you refer (Laura Spence?) was actually rejected after interview by Oxford, it had nothing to do with funds. Gordon Brown made a big thing of it by suggesting that she had been discriminated against because she was northern and went to a state comprehensive school (ditto both for me - I still got to Cambridge - but I digress). Until universities are free to set their own fees, fees will not be a major factor in choice of universities. Cost of living, yes, but that's highest in London, not Oxford or Cambridge.
Anyway back on the main point, I completely agree that to get a job you have to make yourself marketable. However with respect I just think you are misguided in considering OATS as a way of obtaining marketability, and seriously question its value for money.
I do not believe that an OATS integrated CPL/IR with 200-ish hours is significantly more marketable than a modular CPL/IR with 200-ish hours. If it is then the benefit is not very significant, and only for a very small proportion of the best graduates. The rest of the Oxford 'upper hand' to which you refer is just what their marketing department would have you believe. It's certainly not twenty grand's worth of upper hand.
As for real life. Well, real life is that neither CPL/IR is worth much at the moment. Any hiring that is being done is at experience levels well beyond 200 hours. In fact it was always so in by far the majority of cases. Getting the licence is just the first step, the majority need experience after that before airlines will even give your CV a second look. And once you've got a thousand or so instructional hours under your belt, no-one is interested which school you went to.
Hence why I think OATS (and self-sponsoring at other integrated schools in most cases) is a waste of money.
If I were convinced that the OATS name was going to give me an edge (and IMHO I'd be misguided), I'd do a back-to-back OATS modular course and save me money in the process.
If I were convinced that doing an integrated course was going to give me an edge, (which is probably closer to the truth, but still not very significant, IMHO) I'd go to BAe Jerez and save money.
However at the end of the day it's your money to do with what you will.
cheers!
foggy.
Last edited by foghorn; 27th Jan 2003 at 13:52.
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I disagree, the use of an analogy is to highlight a point, of course there were more factors involced in the Laura Spence case - it just highlights a point. Anyway, in the context of flying schools. Whether it is marketing blurb or not (and working in marketingm i can see right through it), here are the facts as I see them:
Jerez
Question: What are my job propects?
Answer: Well, expect to wait about a year, and you may get an airline interview. We don't see much opportuinity at the moment
Oxford:
Questio: What are my job prospects?
Answer: Well, by the time you graduate we expect the market to have picked up [marketing blurb]. So, look at the airline orders [EZY, FR etc etc] factor in the natural wastage ... blah blah blah [all more marketing blurb]
... but here comes the useful bit ...
airlines x,y and z (who I shall not name) have all approached us and asked us to proved a,b and c, hence the APP programme, hence the changes etc etc, here is the proof and here is our track record. Based on this you can expect to get interviews (note the s) straight away, it's up to you whether you get the job.
Now, as I say, I see through the marketing blurb, that's not hard, but as I see it, Oxford seem to take some vested interest in what happens after you graduate - Jerez says, thanks for your £58k, the flight homes leaves in half an hour.
Big deal - why Oxford are helping you get a job by talking to the airlines (who appraoch Oxford and not the other way around) and you are getting interviews, and if you are worth your salt, you'll turn one into a job offer. Jerez have in interest and in the meantime the interest you are earning on your loan will soon outweigh the difference in costs.
It is up to you, I know what I would do.
Anyway, I've argued my point enough, and who am I to talk anyway?
lol GJK
Jerez
Question: What are my job propects?
Answer: Well, expect to wait about a year, and you may get an airline interview. We don't see much opportuinity at the moment
Oxford:
Questio: What are my job prospects?
Answer: Well, by the time you graduate we expect the market to have picked up [marketing blurb]. So, look at the airline orders [EZY, FR etc etc] factor in the natural wastage ... blah blah blah [all more marketing blurb]
... but here comes the useful bit ...
airlines x,y and z (who I shall not name) have all approached us and asked us to proved a,b and c, hence the APP programme, hence the changes etc etc, here is the proof and here is our track record. Based on this you can expect to get interviews (note the s) straight away, it's up to you whether you get the job.
Now, as I say, I see through the marketing blurb, that's not hard, but as I see it, Oxford seem to take some vested interest in what happens after you graduate - Jerez says, thanks for your £58k, the flight homes leaves in half an hour.
Big deal - why Oxford are helping you get a job by talking to the airlines (who appraoch Oxford and not the other way around) and you are getting interviews, and if you are worth your salt, you'll turn one into a job offer. Jerez have in interest and in the meantime the interest you are earning on your loan will soon outweigh the difference in costs.
It is up to you, I know what I would do.
Anyway, I've argued my point enough, and who am I to talk anyway?
lol GJK
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Round 4….ding ding!
Here’s my view:
You’re Chief Pilot looking to recruit. Who do you select from the following??
Mr Oxford
fATPL/CPL/IR
TT: 200 hours
Or;
Mr Any Other School
fATPL/CPL/IR/FIC
TT: 750 hours
OK, take your pick! Who’s it to be? I know where my money goes.
Oh, and if things got even more desperate, Mr Any Other School will probably have another £20k left in the bank to do a TR.
I think the point here is more to do with individual circumstances. Yes, being in Oxford may have some kind of advantages, but as already stated here, the market is not good and experience is gonna have a big say on who gets what. Admittedly, if I had a spare hundred and fifty thousand in the bank (course and further rating costs and foregone salary with a prudence measure built in, in case I end up unemployed), I would probably opt for Oxford, however I am no way near as fortunate and I would rather go modular, keep my job and sleep safely at night in the knowledge that I’ll have some dosh in the bank at the end of the month.
In current times, airlines will be wanting to avoid taking any risks at all. This means recruiting experienced pilots and I’m sorry, but having Oxford on your CV can surely do you no favour at all at the moment. And anyway, what right has Mr/Ms 200hrs TT got over the guy that’s gone through the ranks, flown clapped out aircraft in the middle of the night up and down the UK!?
As they say, life is one big learning process….
I’m sure there’ll be many of you who disagree with my comments, but hey, its just my view and at the end of the day we should all remember that we have a common goal and are all in this painful process together.
All the best….
Here’s my view:
You’re Chief Pilot looking to recruit. Who do you select from the following??
Mr Oxford
fATPL/CPL/IR
TT: 200 hours
Or;
Mr Any Other School
fATPL/CPL/IR/FIC
TT: 750 hours
OK, take your pick! Who’s it to be? I know where my money goes.
Oh, and if things got even more desperate, Mr Any Other School will probably have another £20k left in the bank to do a TR.
I think the point here is more to do with individual circumstances. Yes, being in Oxford may have some kind of advantages, but as already stated here, the market is not good and experience is gonna have a big say on who gets what. Admittedly, if I had a spare hundred and fifty thousand in the bank (course and further rating costs and foregone salary with a prudence measure built in, in case I end up unemployed), I would probably opt for Oxford, however I am no way near as fortunate and I would rather go modular, keep my job and sleep safely at night in the knowledge that I’ll have some dosh in the bank at the end of the month.
In current times, airlines will be wanting to avoid taking any risks at all. This means recruiting experienced pilots and I’m sorry, but having Oxford on your CV can surely do you no favour at all at the moment. And anyway, what right has Mr/Ms 200hrs TT got over the guy that’s gone through the ranks, flown clapped out aircraft in the middle of the night up and down the UK!?
As they say, life is one big learning process….
I’m sure there’ll be many of you who disagree with my comments, but hey, its just my view and at the end of the day we should all remember that we have a common goal and are all in this painful process together.
All the best….
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I'm afraid anyone under the misapprehension that Oxford have a whole stash of airlines up their sleeves ready to interview graduates is being somewhat naive.
I wouldn't class a monthly newsletter e-mailed to graduates stating Ryanair aren't recruiting yet as a first-class recruitment machine. The only benefit OAT graduates get in respect of jobs, is that when Ryanair approach the school, they are prepared to waive the extortionate fees paid if you make a speculative approach directly. I am not aware of a single recent graduate who found work other than with Ryanair as aresult of efforts on the part of OAT. Most airlines do their own recruiting without some sort of secret referral to OAT, or from the CTC holding pool.
There aren't airlines queuing up outside OAT asking for eager graduates to be sent for interview. Additionally, the career development manager (lovely chap as I said before) really doesn't know one graduate from the other. So how would these mystical recommendations work? I rather suspect on the basis of pot luck - which CV gets pulled out of the drawer first.
OAT are experts at making vague promises of employment or increased prospects. Only a few years ago, OAT trained you for a career not just a licence - trouble is they didn't say a career as what!
I wouldn't class a monthly newsletter e-mailed to graduates stating Ryanair aren't recruiting yet as a first-class recruitment machine. The only benefit OAT graduates get in respect of jobs, is that when Ryanair approach the school, they are prepared to waive the extortionate fees paid if you make a speculative approach directly. I am not aware of a single recent graduate who found work other than with Ryanair as aresult of efforts on the part of OAT. Most airlines do their own recruiting without some sort of secret referral to OAT, or from the CTC holding pool.
There aren't airlines queuing up outside OAT asking for eager graduates to be sent for interview. Additionally, the career development manager (lovely chap as I said before) really doesn't know one graduate from the other. So how would these mystical recommendations work? I rather suspect on the basis of pot luck - which CV gets pulled out of the drawer first.
OAT are experts at making vague promises of employment or increased prospects. Only a few years ago, OAT trained you for a career not just a licence - trouble is they didn't say a career as what!
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Okay guys, I have read all of the above arguement with great interest and tried to reamain impartial in my conclusions. I went down to Oxford a few days ago to try and suss the whole thing out and from what I have seen I have to agree with garethjk22.
Oxford are no longer running their standard integrated fATPL scheme, the whole thing is now APP. Cadets recently started the old integrated scheme have been upgraded to the APP.
Now you have to ask yourself why many OAT graduates are finding it hard to get employed, cos' for the old course there is no selection, if you've got the money then you're in. It doesn't matter if your an idiot with smelly breath and open-toe Sandals. This means that after you graduate then it's down to you impressing the airline in your selection to get you a place, just cos' you trained with Oxford does not automatically mean your the dream employee and I'm sure that the airlines are aware of this. Now with the APP scheme there is a selection process. This, in theory, will filter out the above mentioned type of person. Ultimately OAT will be producing some of the most desirable employees with some of the best training. I strongly believe that if you've got OAT standard training, OAT actively proposing your cv to interested airlines and you've got the right attitude then you've surely got the formula for success.
As for the cost. 60K. This inlcudes fATPL/CPL/IR. It also includes JOT (10 hours in 737-400 full motion).
If I had the money I would be there like a shot.
PT
Oxford are no longer running their standard integrated fATPL scheme, the whole thing is now APP. Cadets recently started the old integrated scheme have been upgraded to the APP.
Now you have to ask yourself why many OAT graduates are finding it hard to get employed, cos' for the old course there is no selection, if you've got the money then you're in. It doesn't matter if your an idiot with smelly breath and open-toe Sandals. This means that after you graduate then it's down to you impressing the airline in your selection to get you a place, just cos' you trained with Oxford does not automatically mean your the dream employee and I'm sure that the airlines are aware of this. Now with the APP scheme there is a selection process. This, in theory, will filter out the above mentioned type of person. Ultimately OAT will be producing some of the most desirable employees with some of the best training. I strongly believe that if you've got OAT standard training, OAT actively proposing your cv to interested airlines and you've got the right attitude then you've surely got the formula for success.
As for the cost. 60K. This inlcudes fATPL/CPL/IR. It also includes JOT (10 hours in 737-400 full motion).
If I had the money I would be there like a shot.
PT
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For what it's worth,
if someone questioned why, after self-funding my training I chose to spend 20K extra on a course just because of the "opportunity" which was uncertain, I would only hope that my response would be that I had just won the lottery, because otherwise I might feel and look a little silly.
Tooooo much money and too many other opportunities available with the money if it is spare.
I haven't even begun my training yet (just a PPL), so am only trying to give you a first-timer's opinion, but I know when common sense prevails. Why risk your mother's house on such uncertainty?
USE your money and use it well. Don't you fancy teaching in light aircraft for a while? Perhaps a few mail runs overnight? Or perhaps an Air-Taxi position? From what I understand and have been told, it can help to make you a very competent pilot. I'm going to go for instruction. It'll cost a little more, but I'm hoping to get good experience out of it and the reward of training other individuals (that seems to be about all you can get out of it these days!). I'm also fairly sure, as number cruncher says, you're going to have a hell of a lot more going for you in this instance, than a name that is attached to your CV.
I know it would be nice to grab that first job on the turbines, but hell, I'm going into this to fly and with the limited amount of experience I have, I'll take anything I can get my hands on if it get's me out of this office and into the air!
Good luck with whatever you do in any case!
if someone questioned why, after self-funding my training I chose to spend 20K extra on a course just because of the "opportunity" which was uncertain, I would only hope that my response would be that I had just won the lottery, because otherwise I might feel and look a little silly.
Tooooo much money and too many other opportunities available with the money if it is spare.
I haven't even begun my training yet (just a PPL), so am only trying to give you a first-timer's opinion, but I know when common sense prevails. Why risk your mother's house on such uncertainty?
USE your money and use it well. Don't you fancy teaching in light aircraft for a while? Perhaps a few mail runs overnight? Or perhaps an Air-Taxi position? From what I understand and have been told, it can help to make you a very competent pilot. I'm going to go for instruction. It'll cost a little more, but I'm hoping to get good experience out of it and the reward of training other individuals (that seems to be about all you can get out of it these days!). I'm also fairly sure, as number cruncher says, you're going to have a hell of a lot more going for you in this instance, than a name that is attached to your CV.
I know it would be nice to grab that first job on the turbines, but hell, I'm going into this to fly and with the limited amount of experience I have, I'll take anything I can get my hands on if it get's me out of this office and into the air!
Good luck with whatever you do in any case!
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PT, don't be too impressed by the selection process. It was created through a process that involved asking current/past students to apply for the new course. Presumably most of those would still have passed, including the smelly breath, sandal-wearing brigade you refer to.
OAT is a business, and without sponsored cadets it will take as many self-sponsored cadets as it takes to keep the tills ringing, and the entry standards will ultimately have to reflect this.
Also, what guarantee do you have that OAT will forward your CV to an employer? They can't forward everybody's as they would lose all credibility, so on what basis do they then select them? It wouldn't be good for continuing business if only the top x percent in each course are put forward. Students would leave as soon as it became apparent they weren't going to make the grade and take their business to a cheaper school.
The process as it stands is random and poor. I really don't see that that will change, and 20K more than I paid for a bit more twin time and a JOC (in addition to 20hrs MCC or as a replacement?) isn't really good value.
Once again, the marketing power of Oxford overcomes all common sense, and all without slippery Bob!
OAT is a business, and without sponsored cadets it will take as many self-sponsored cadets as it takes to keep the tills ringing, and the entry standards will ultimately have to reflect this.
Also, what guarantee do you have that OAT will forward your CV to an employer? They can't forward everybody's as they would lose all credibility, so on what basis do they then select them? It wouldn't be good for continuing business if only the top x percent in each course are put forward. Students would leave as soon as it became apparent they weren't going to make the grade and take their business to a cheaper school.
The process as it stands is random and poor. I really don't see that that will change, and 20K more than I paid for a bit more twin time and a JOC (in addition to 20hrs MCC or as a replacement?) isn't really good value.
Once again, the marketing power of Oxford overcomes all common sense, and all without slippery Bob!
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Witchdoctor,
I don't understand what evidence you base this piece of information on. The selection tests used are those designed by EPST as can be found here http://www.epst.com/aselection.html
These are exactly the same COMPASS tests that are used by selection procedures throughout many airlines (including the one being used at the current CTC selection), so to suggest that the selection has been designed by past/current students is ludicrous! What would be the merit in that? I took the selection tests, so I can vouch for exactly what they consist of.
Yes, indeed OAT is a business and it is in its interests to train as many self sponsored cadets as possible. If OAT were to start to run short of sponsored cadets then, yes, the entry standards would have to be flexible to keep the self-sponsored cadets rolling in.
As it stands OAT is no where near short on sponsored cadets (they have a hell of a lot from Algeria there at the moment) and they are still pouring in e.g. BMI sending cadets there recently. In actual fact the facilites at Oxford are at capacity with the number of students there.
I believe what Oxford are hoping for with the APP is a self-perpetuating scheme whereby they are selective with who they take on the course and the numbers. They give these select handful very good airline orientated training. The end result is a cadet who is very employable. Once the APP course has got underway and they getting the graduates into employment then the course can boast impressive employment statistics. This means that in due course the APP will be in demand and not the other way round i.e. OAT lowering its entry requirements to fill courses. This must be their way of thinking or, as you say, it would make no economic sense to start reducing the numbers.
When you join the APP course, part of the agreement is that they will actively seek out your first employment post as an airline pilot. This involves researching all available positions and proposing your cv (or your course's cv's) to the airline, as there is only 20 per course.
OAT really have gone all out on this APP course. They have a brand new selection suite and have ordered a **** load of new simulators. It seems that they have put a lot of thought into it. For such a large business to make such a drastic move surely indicates how confident they are of its success and that it wil be a hit in the future.
Look at it this way:
- Employers have always shown a preference for cadets from Oxford.
- The training has just been streamlined in accordance with airlines requests.
- The cadet has had to go through selection to get there and will be the type of person the airline is looking for.
- Airlines will always be looking for the cheapest way to get cadets.
- The APP course and its selection is exatly the same course that BMI are using. So in effect its like going through the sponsored course but without being tied down to one airline in the end.
You have some valid points, but I really think you should research the APP a bit more and try not to be blinded by what you believe to be OAT's bad intentions.
I would be keen to hear what you think.
PT.
It was created through a process that involved asking current/past students to apply for the new course.
These are exactly the same COMPASS tests that are used by selection procedures throughout many airlines (including the one being used at the current CTC selection), so to suggest that the selection has been designed by past/current students is ludicrous! What would be the merit in that? I took the selection tests, so I can vouch for exactly what they consist of.
OAT is a business, and without sponsored cadets it will take as many self-sponsored cadets as it takes to keep the tills ringing, and the entry standards will ultimately have to reflect this.
As it stands OAT is no where near short on sponsored cadets (they have a hell of a lot from Algeria there at the moment) and they are still pouring in e.g. BMI sending cadets there recently. In actual fact the facilites at Oxford are at capacity with the number of students there.
I believe what Oxford are hoping for with the APP is a self-perpetuating scheme whereby they are selective with who they take on the course and the numbers. They give these select handful very good airline orientated training. The end result is a cadet who is very employable. Once the APP course has got underway and they getting the graduates into employment then the course can boast impressive employment statistics. This means that in due course the APP will be in demand and not the other way round i.e. OAT lowering its entry requirements to fill courses. This must be their way of thinking or, as you say, it would make no economic sense to start reducing the numbers.
Also, what guarantee do you have that OAT will forward your CV to an employer? They can't forward everybody's as they would lose all credibility, so on what basis do they then select them? It wouldn't be good for continuing business if only the top x percent in each course are put forward. Students would leave as soon as it became apparent they weren't going to make the grade and take their business to a cheaper school.
OAT really have gone all out on this APP course. They have a brand new selection suite and have ordered a **** load of new simulators. It seems that they have put a lot of thought into it. For such a large business to make such a drastic move surely indicates how confident they are of its success and that it wil be a hit in the future.
Look at it this way:
- Employers have always shown a preference for cadets from Oxford.
- The training has just been streamlined in accordance with airlines requests.
- The cadet has had to go through selection to get there and will be the type of person the airline is looking for.
- Airlines will always be looking for the cheapest way to get cadets.
- The APP course and its selection is exatly the same course that BMI are using. So in effect its like going through the sponsored course but without being tied down to one airline in the end.
You have some valid points, but I really think you should research the APP a bit more and try not to be blinded by what you believe to be OAT's bad intentions.
I would be keen to hear what you think.
PT.