About Oxford A.T need to make up my mind
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P T Flea
The Khalifa contract from Algeria has stopped and they just have existing students finishing off. I don't know what the state of play is with the Algerian Air Force contract. I heard that immigration were very cagey about issuing any new visas to Algerian students in the light of the number of terrorist arrests involving Algerian nationals. However a couple of interesting points about the Khalifa contract. The first is that Oxford actually lost money which may sound hard to believe but that is what I was told and secondly if it was not for the Khalifa contract then Oxford would of folded in the post 9/11 period. The second comment was one that was mentioned by management! With BA and bmi not running any new courses then Oxford are bound to be creating new ideas to get business. At the end of the day you can't blame them because it is what any company would do.
£20K is a heck of a lot of extra money and if I were you I would make sure that the course extras merit the £20K extra. You would be very foolish to assume that Oxford will find you a job since there are far too many variables. Sadly such a crystal ball does not exist but it would be good if it did! The current political instability in Iraq could tip the balance over to the other side and APP scheme or no APP scheme, you will find that airlines will simply not recruit in the wake of any war. With that money you could buy a jet type rating if you really wanted or you could buy an instructors rating and roughly 50 hours twin time at an FTO that will charge a reasonable price!
Don't be lulled into a false sense of security of flashy new sims and new selection procedure. Also the extra jet handling time would be nice but I recall one chief pilot stating that doing a JOC is pointless since you will be doing the same exercise when you join a company anyway!
The Khalifa contract from Algeria has stopped and they just have existing students finishing off. I don't know what the state of play is with the Algerian Air Force contract. I heard that immigration were very cagey about issuing any new visas to Algerian students in the light of the number of terrorist arrests involving Algerian nationals. However a couple of interesting points about the Khalifa contract. The first is that Oxford actually lost money which may sound hard to believe but that is what I was told and secondly if it was not for the Khalifa contract then Oxford would of folded in the post 9/11 period. The second comment was one that was mentioned by management! With BA and bmi not running any new courses then Oxford are bound to be creating new ideas to get business. At the end of the day you can't blame them because it is what any company would do.
£20K is a heck of a lot of extra money and if I were you I would make sure that the course extras merit the £20K extra. You would be very foolish to assume that Oxford will find you a job since there are far too many variables. Sadly such a crystal ball does not exist but it would be good if it did! The current political instability in Iraq could tip the balance over to the other side and APP scheme or no APP scheme, you will find that airlines will simply not recruit in the wake of any war. With that money you could buy a jet type rating if you really wanted or you could buy an instructors rating and roughly 50 hours twin time at an FTO that will charge a reasonable price!
Don't be lulled into a false sense of security of flashy new sims and new selection procedure. Also the extra jet handling time would be nice but I recall one chief pilot stating that doing a JOC is pointless since you will be doing the same exercise when you join a company anyway!
Whilst not wishing to comment upon individual schemes one should remember that BAE also have an aptitude assessment process for ALL students applying to the college.
For myself I would pay for the cheapest Modular CPL/IR Frzn ATPL I could.
This would be done by distance learning the ATPL whilst working. A PPL and some hours done in States or South Africa or similar. Then a Modular CPL IR at a small school with a tatty HQ and a good reputation at an airfield preferably close to home.
I estimate this costing around £43,000 all in with a following wind.
I would then - over some of the other options discussed here - have something like £20,000 in my back pocket to enhance my career prospects.
This would be a useful sum. It would buy me a type rating on a Shed - a type that a night freight company have recently hired on. Or a J41 rating which Eastern are currently advertising for. Or a HS148 rating which a certain freight company might find interesting. Ot a FI rating with Instrument qualification, night qualification and even Multi FI rating which a local school might be interested in. Or throw it at CTC to get into their airline preparation scheme. Or throw it towards Ryanair with their self paid type ratings. Or use the saving to support myself joining BA as cabin crew - they are advertising internally first (like all airlines) for staff with Frzn ATPL's and current IRs to apply as flightcrew.
The list is endless. A proactive attack down one of these or other avenues where few others are doing the same may well produce better results than hoping a large airline is going to approach a particular FTO at the right time looking at you and 40 of your colleagues.
That said, you pays your money and takes your choice.
Just be aware there are lots of choices.
Good luck,
WWW
For myself I would pay for the cheapest Modular CPL/IR Frzn ATPL I could.
This would be done by distance learning the ATPL whilst working. A PPL and some hours done in States or South Africa or similar. Then a Modular CPL IR at a small school with a tatty HQ and a good reputation at an airfield preferably close to home.
I estimate this costing around £43,000 all in with a following wind.
I would then - over some of the other options discussed here - have something like £20,000 in my back pocket to enhance my career prospects.
This would be a useful sum. It would buy me a type rating on a Shed - a type that a night freight company have recently hired on. Or a J41 rating which Eastern are currently advertising for. Or a HS148 rating which a certain freight company might find interesting. Ot a FI rating with Instrument qualification, night qualification and even Multi FI rating which a local school might be interested in. Or throw it at CTC to get into their airline preparation scheme. Or throw it towards Ryanair with their self paid type ratings. Or use the saving to support myself joining BA as cabin crew - they are advertising internally first (like all airlines) for staff with Frzn ATPL's and current IRs to apply as flightcrew.
The list is endless. A proactive attack down one of these or other avenues where few others are doing the same may well produce better results than hoping a large airline is going to approach a particular FTO at the right time looking at you and 40 of your colleagues.
That said, you pays your money and takes your choice.
Just be aware there are lots of choices.
Good luck,
WWW
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What a terrible situation young Wannabes are in these days not only are they expected to pay huge sums for a basic licence,but now it seems further huge sums for a type rating. All so that the Airlines can make bigger profits and Joe Public can travel ever more cheaply year after year.!
When they finish this expenditure there are no guarantees that they will even find gainful employment.
I cannot think of any other job where the Employee is expected to contribute so much of one's own time and money to enter a chosen career.
When they finish this expenditure there are no guarantees that they will even find gainful employment.
I cannot think of any other job where the Employee is expected to contribute so much of one's own time and money to enter a chosen career.
Well Doctors spend 7 years in training accumulating debts to the order of £30,000 and if they then wish to enter General Practice they will need to get a loan of say £50,000 to buy into a halfway decent practice. Starting pay is often then in the order of £50,000 pa with unsocial hours, increased life and insurance premiums and the very real possibility of assault at work several times a year.
Similarly someone training to become a Barrister is likely to accumulate debts of well into £50,000 to become qualified over the period of 4 years when pay is miniscule. It can then take a further 3 years to find a position in a firm operating in your prefered area of law. But then the pay, terms and conditions accelerate away like nobodies business. One does have to be actually quite clever and studious mind.
I have friends doing both.
I had the cheaper, easier and more fun deal I think.
WWW
ps Talking pre Sept 11th that is.
Similarly someone training to become a Barrister is likely to accumulate debts of well into £50,000 to become qualified over the period of 4 years when pay is miniscule. It can then take a further 3 years to find a position in a firm operating in your prefered area of law. But then the pay, terms and conditions accelerate away like nobodies business. One does have to be actually quite clever and studious mind.
I have friends doing both.
I had the cheaper, easier and more fun deal I think.
WWW
ps Talking pre Sept 11th that is.
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Put yourselves in the airlines position.
Here they have a brand new shiny Airbus, costing around £30 million. Now, naturally they need someone to fly the thing. Being cost conscious they decide on a new graduate with very low hours. Now who are you gonna choose? Someone who has invested that bit extra in a course designed to offer airlines pilots who have been trained specifically for the type of flying they are looking for, from a school who is reputable, has a well proven track record and proves candidates of a 'known' history, and training record, and a high standard (not that the other schools are not high standard - they just know from experience that Oxford is so therefore it's low risk)
or,
someone who's done it on the cheap?
Now, in my experience (and knowing some poeple who make these decisions) what tends to happen is the 'known' graduates get the shiny new Airbus, the cheap ones get the HS748.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that is the way I view it. You are playing a game of politics, not showing who can pass the course.
GJK
Here they have a brand new shiny Airbus, costing around £30 million. Now, naturally they need someone to fly the thing. Being cost conscious they decide on a new graduate with very low hours. Now who are you gonna choose? Someone who has invested that bit extra in a course designed to offer airlines pilots who have been trained specifically for the type of flying they are looking for, from a school who is reputable, has a well proven track record and proves candidates of a 'known' history, and training record, and a high standard (not that the other schools are not high standard - they just know from experience that Oxford is so therefore it's low risk)
or,
someone who's done it on the cheap?
Now, in my experience (and knowing some poeple who make these decisions) what tends to happen is the 'known' graduates get the shiny new Airbus, the cheap ones get the HS748.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that is the way I view it. You are playing a game of politics, not showing who can pass the course.
GJK
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who have been trained specifically for the type of flying they are looking for
If what you're saying is true, then surely every Airbus/Boeing/shiny jet operator will be clamouring at OATS' door, begging for their graduates ??
Interesting comparison there with the HS748, an aircraft that will be flown around in all weather, literally, mostly at night in this country, oh, and all hand-flown profiles and approaches as there is knack-all computerisation on board.
One could argue it takes more pure pliotage skill to perform these duties than operate a nice shiny EFIS/FMC equipped a/c ?
And I do not believe that by being prudent in choosing good modular ground/flight schools should be viewed as "on the cheap", nor do I believe airlines perceive it as such.
Everyone has their opinion on OATS, and whether it is worth the extra for the name, personally, no I do not believe so. Although I do not go along with some of the OATS bashing that can occur here, it has enough recommendations from people here for me to believe it is certainly a good training establishment.
But I think it would be incredibly naive of anyone to believe that in this world, the OATS grad will get the head start over his modular/non-OATS contemporary, life isn't that simple, regardless of how it is marketed.
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Its no wonder some people never make it in this game….
I think its already been decided. If you have lots of cash to dish out, then yes, throw it at Oxford, good school, however, you’ll get the same license, but i suppose one advantage is that you can let someone else do all the work in your attempt to find employment whilst you sit on your arse!
I’ve learnt a great deal from reading this forum over the last few months and am probably much wiser for it, but if you think you’re going to graduate and get straight into the RHS of an A320, then you’re either going to have to be extremely extremely lucky or be the son/daughter of the MD of the airline!!
I’m prepared for a bloody hard slog over the next couple of years and have accepted the fact that I’ll accept any job going whether it be flying mail through the night or sitting in a nice shiny cockpit, however, I’m confident that with the right attitude and determination I’ll get that A320 RHS one day. If you don’t mirror that view, then I suggest you should maybe carefully re-consider your motives because it seems to be a very tough and competitive industry.
Best of luck anyway
I think its already been decided. If you have lots of cash to dish out, then yes, throw it at Oxford, good school, however, you’ll get the same license, but i suppose one advantage is that you can let someone else do all the work in your attempt to find employment whilst you sit on your arse!
I’ve learnt a great deal from reading this forum over the last few months and am probably much wiser for it, but if you think you’re going to graduate and get straight into the RHS of an A320, then you’re either going to have to be extremely extremely lucky or be the son/daughter of the MD of the airline!!
I’m prepared for a bloody hard slog over the next couple of years and have accepted the fact that I’ll accept any job going whether it be flying mail through the night or sitting in a nice shiny cockpit, however, I’m confident that with the right attitude and determination I’ll get that A320 RHS one day. If you don’t mirror that view, then I suggest you should maybe carefully re-consider your motives because it seems to be a very tough and competitive industry.
Best of luck anyway
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Sorry to see two people at least have been thoroughly taken in by the marketing of the APP course.
The promises and impressive figures you quote are spookily similar to the ones quoted prior during open days 2 years ago. (97% of our graduates pass, more than 80% are in a FO position within 3 months of graduation blah blah blah). It's a shame that the reality doesn't match the promises, and that applies to almost all of the most recent graduates (don't want anyone thinking it's just me because of my smelly breath and sandals).
I'm not knocking OAT, but seriously guys, don't believe it until you actually see it.
As for PT's questions, the APP selection may very well be based on ones elsewhere, but recent graduates were invited to apply and de-bug the system before it went live. I draw my conclusions from that.
I hope that when you all graduate you find yourselves in the fortunate position of having a healthy job situation to market yourselves in (DIY is definitely the best way), that way you can avoid any subsequent disappointment when OAT are unable to magic up 250 odd vacancies a year out of a recession for the exclusive employment of OAT graduates.
The promises and impressive figures you quote are spookily similar to the ones quoted prior during open days 2 years ago. (97% of our graduates pass, more than 80% are in a FO position within 3 months of graduation blah blah blah). It's a shame that the reality doesn't match the promises, and that applies to almost all of the most recent graduates (don't want anyone thinking it's just me because of my smelly breath and sandals).
I'm not knocking OAT, but seriously guys, don't believe it until you actually see it.
As for PT's questions, the APP selection may very well be based on ones elsewhere, but recent graduates were invited to apply and de-bug the system before it went live. I draw my conclusions from that.
I hope that when you all graduate you find yourselves in the fortunate position of having a healthy job situation to market yourselves in (DIY is definitely the best way), that way you can avoid any subsequent disappointment when OAT are unable to magic up 250 odd vacancies a year out of a recession for the exclusive employment of OAT graduates.
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OK, let me once again add further clarity to my argument. Which job pays more? The A320 or HS748 - if you really want to argue that the HS748 pays more - great go ahead - i'll just watch you commit social suicide. So, my point which I spelled out in as many words is that the choice of school is nothing to with ability, your skill - it is a political choice.
Look, main pax airlines in this country (sched and charter) are risk aversive, and cost conscious - They want someone who is the lowest risk - I'm not interested in what historically that stats are for OAT - the point is this new APP programme is under consideration - and if that is what the airlines want chances are that is where the airlines will look first for pilots.
Personally, I'll fly a duck with a seat - but with a potential bank loan to consider, the option of I'll fly anything does not feature - the attitude of - this is gonna cost me £60k and I need to pay it back (and to have a life would be nice) so, i'm gonna choose the course which gives me the greatest chance of success - I'm not saying it is the best - never have, i'm not saying that someone else from somewhere else will not get the job I want, what i am saying is, - play the game - give the airlines what they want. You can harp on all you like about my qualification is the same as Fred Smiths - that is the niave attitude. This goes back to my original analogy with the universities - the APP scheme is based on ability - yes, BAe also ask you to do a test - but the APP selection scheme is a carbon copy of the airlines sponsorship selection process - I notice someone complaining about it - I would complain if it wasn't! So Oxford recruit the best and are perceived from the person who dishes out the employment contracts point of view as being one of the best schools.
The JOC element - maybe you do repeat it when you start training with the airline - but at least the airlines will know if your likely to pass it if you've already done the basics - lowers their risk.
I'm not working on behalf of Oxford, I'm not championing their corner, I am not dissing any other school or route. What I am saying is - look logically at the situation. The APP scheme is the same cost as BAe (maybe slightly more) but accommodation is extra. BAe is £57-£60k depending on exchange rate, OAT APP is £60k. OK, you also need accommodation but that's it - the accommodation comes as cheap as you want to make it. So, OAT may end up around £65-£70k.
Modular - rarely costs as low £40k, nearly always creeps up to around £60k - based on what everyone I have spoken to has told me.
Anyway, I've harped on enough and no doubt bored you all to tears (for which I am sorry - but this was a nice distraction to what I was doing before). So, good luck everyone, we'll all get that Shorts SD360 job one day, and my won't we be proud of it!
GJK
Look, main pax airlines in this country (sched and charter) are risk aversive, and cost conscious - They want someone who is the lowest risk - I'm not interested in what historically that stats are for OAT - the point is this new APP programme is under consideration - and if that is what the airlines want chances are that is where the airlines will look first for pilots.
Personally, I'll fly a duck with a seat - but with a potential bank loan to consider, the option of I'll fly anything does not feature - the attitude of - this is gonna cost me £60k and I need to pay it back (and to have a life would be nice) so, i'm gonna choose the course which gives me the greatest chance of success - I'm not saying it is the best - never have, i'm not saying that someone else from somewhere else will not get the job I want, what i am saying is, - play the game - give the airlines what they want. You can harp on all you like about my qualification is the same as Fred Smiths - that is the niave attitude. This goes back to my original analogy with the universities - the APP scheme is based on ability - yes, BAe also ask you to do a test - but the APP selection scheme is a carbon copy of the airlines sponsorship selection process - I notice someone complaining about it - I would complain if it wasn't! So Oxford recruit the best and are perceived from the person who dishes out the employment contracts point of view as being one of the best schools.
The JOC element - maybe you do repeat it when you start training with the airline - but at least the airlines will know if your likely to pass it if you've already done the basics - lowers their risk.
I'm not working on behalf of Oxford, I'm not championing their corner, I am not dissing any other school or route. What I am saying is - look logically at the situation. The APP scheme is the same cost as BAe (maybe slightly more) but accommodation is extra. BAe is £57-£60k depending on exchange rate, OAT APP is £60k. OK, you also need accommodation but that's it - the accommodation comes as cheap as you want to make it. So, OAT may end up around £65-£70k.
Modular - rarely costs as low £40k, nearly always creeps up to around £60k - based on what everyone I have spoken to has told me.
Anyway, I've harped on enough and no doubt bored you all to tears (for which I am sorry - but this was a nice distraction to what I was doing before). So, good luck everyone, we'll all get that Shorts SD360 job one day, and my won't we be proud of it!
GJK
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Wee Weasley Welshman Cannot agree totally with you as in my case I can afford to keep my offspring over a 7 year period should they want to be Doctors or a Barrister and if they qualify they will be employed without any debt and if a Doctor they can go anywhere in the World and be welcomed with open arms. Barristers I agree a different case but they can always retrain to be Lawyers if they are any good. Training to be a Barrister also opens up other avenues of employment if the going gets tough,not something Pilots have up their sleeve.
Whilst as you say Doctors have to buy into a practice,they have an asset to sell one day!! Pilots don't.
If my offspring wanted to be Pilots I could not afford £80000 in one year only with no guarantees at the end that they will be employed,especially as I have already supported them through three years at Uni.Thankfully neither have any interest in that direction.
I sometimes wonder whether a large number of Wannabees choose this flying business cos of relatively short training period before earning what for a 21year old seems a good salary.
Whilst as you say Doctors have to buy into a practice,they have an asset to sell one day!! Pilots don't.
If my offspring wanted to be Pilots I could not afford £80000 in one year only with no guarantees at the end that they will be employed,especially as I have already supported them through three years at Uni.Thankfully neither have any interest in that direction.
I sometimes wonder whether a large number of Wannabees choose this flying business cos of relatively short training period before earning what for a 21year old seems a good salary.
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I thought that originally the OAT APP was to provide suitable candidates to something like the CTC scheme - I'm sure this was being booted around 2 or 3 years ago ? Then I read that the APP had the backing of a few of the airlines , one of which was KLMuk ( as was ) . So why are Buzz still using Cabair for the partial sponsored instructor route ( & yes I know there are tax implications ) ?
Frankly I'm surprised that potential candidates for this modified integrated course are not asking why , with so much interest from airlines , there are so many unemployed OAT graduates who , given the chance , would give a lot to sit in the right hand seat of a 748 , SD360 or F27/ 50 .
garethjk22 is right - airlines do want the lowest risk when selecting pilots - that's one of the reasons that airline flying has lost it's appeal for so many long in the tooth boring old fuggars like me - when the f/o has the social skills of an amoeba I'd rather be flying a 748 - at least there's something to occupy my time !
Frankly I'm surprised that potential candidates for this modified integrated course are not asking why , with so much interest from airlines , there are so many unemployed OAT graduates who , given the chance , would give a lot to sit in the right hand seat of a 748 , SD360 or F27/ 50 .
garethjk22 is right - airlines do want the lowest risk when selecting pilots - that's one of the reasons that airline flying has lost it's appeal for so many long in the tooth boring old fuggars like me - when the f/o has the social skills of an amoeba I'd rather be flying a 748 - at least there's something to occupy my time !
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First things first, no one here is suggesting that just because OAT are who they are that they will have 250 jobs lined up for graduates when they come out of training. All I am saying is that as part of the APP course they actively propose your cv to airlines and do much of the hard work for you.
These days it seems a licence is no longer just a licence the airlines look a lot closer as to how you attained it.
As for a supposed surplus amount of OAT grads out there now, yes there may be. What I am saying is that those grads were in no way screened when they took the course up and could have just done it cos' they had the money. They still may not be airline material. Don't forget that when we have our shiny new licences the airlines still carefully look at who you are, your credentials and how you did on the course.
Okay, OAT may not be anywhere near the cheapest way of doing things, but if it increases my chances of getting employed at the end of it then I am sold. Like gareth says, I would also fly a duck with a saddle. I am just mad keen to get my hands on my first duck and want to maximise my chances of doing that in anyway possible. I may not be very experienced in life yet, but there is one simple rule that I have found always holds true: you get what you pay for. OAT only charge what they charge because of the quality of the training and the respect that Oxford gets in the aviation industry.
Like gareth, I am not in Oxford's corner I am simply looking at what is presented before me. I am completely open to ideas of how to get a licence and your first job.
PT
These days it seems a licence is no longer just a licence the airlines look a lot closer as to how you attained it.
As for a supposed surplus amount of OAT grads out there now, yes there may be. What I am saying is that those grads were in no way screened when they took the course up and could have just done it cos' they had the money. They still may not be airline material. Don't forget that when we have our shiny new licences the airlines still carefully look at who you are, your credentials and how you did on the course.
Okay, OAT may not be anywhere near the cheapest way of doing things, but if it increases my chances of getting employed at the end of it then I am sold. Like gareth says, I would also fly a duck with a saddle. I am just mad keen to get my hands on my first duck and want to maximise my chances of doing that in anyway possible. I may not be very experienced in life yet, but there is one simple rule that I have found always holds true: you get what you pay for. OAT only charge what they charge because of the quality of the training and the respect that Oxford gets in the aviation industry.
Like gareth, I am not in Oxford's corner I am simply looking at what is presented before me. I am completely open to ideas of how to get a licence and your first job.
PT
As I said there are other routes. Were I to be back at square one I have made it clear which one I would follow...
Thats having been to the wire on most sponsorships, having paid for my own ATPL CPL IR, then taught PPL, CPL and IR at a big posh FTO which got me involved with airline selection and sponsorship.
My concise view is this:
In the good hiring times it is worth the extra cost of going to top line FTO's on premium courses as a seemless move from college to airline is a possibility.
Adding one BAD two NOT's to that sentence turns it on its head.
WWW
Thats having been to the wire on most sponsorships, having paid for my own ATPL CPL IR, then taught PPL, CPL and IR at a big posh FTO which got me involved with airline selection and sponsorship.
My concise view is this:
In the good hiring times it is worth the extra cost of going to top line FTO's on premium courses as a seemless move from college to airline is a possibility.
Adding one BAD two NOT's to that sentence turns it on its head.
WWW
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Interesting that social suicide results from your salary and not from opening your mouth and letting your belly rumble.
I'm sure I can hear the airlines beating a path to your door right now
I'm sure I can hear the airlines beating a path to your door right now
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This might not be true......
but I heard it from someone who used to work for oxford in the sales department!
There is this thing about Oxford training for the big airlines. But Oxford has not won an airline training contract for years. When September 11th came along they had only 3 left - contracts awarded several years before. But BA had already chucked Oxford off the shortlist for the new contract that they were in the process of awarding (but at least they finished off the cadets who had already started) and Aer Lingus had told Oxford that they were not going to send them anymore cadets.
I asked who has awarded airline contracts in the last few years? this was the list that Oxford did not get:
BA
Emirates
Air Malta
Britannia
flybe
easyJet
JMC
Air 2000
klmUK/Buzz
Kuwait Air
These were the airlines that rejected Oxford. They did, however, get that well know airline Khalifa, but unfortunately lost that contract to BAe.
Please, someone, explain to me logically the myth that it is worth paying £20K extra to attend a school that has been written off by these airlines?
My vote = go to BAe for integrated or go modular if you cannot get sponsorship.
I have nothing personally against OATS, but I do get the impression they are a spent force.
There is this thing about Oxford training for the big airlines. But Oxford has not won an airline training contract for years. When September 11th came along they had only 3 left - contracts awarded several years before. But BA had already chucked Oxford off the shortlist for the new contract that they were in the process of awarding (but at least they finished off the cadets who had already started) and Aer Lingus had told Oxford that they were not going to send them anymore cadets.
I asked who has awarded airline contracts in the last few years? this was the list that Oxford did not get:
BA
Emirates
Air Malta
Britannia
flybe
easyJet
JMC
Air 2000
klmUK/Buzz
Kuwait Air
These were the airlines that rejected Oxford. They did, however, get that well know airline Khalifa, but unfortunately lost that contract to BAe.
Please, someone, explain to me logically the myth that it is worth paying £20K extra to attend a school that has been written off by these airlines?
My vote = go to BAe for integrated or go modular if you cannot get sponsorship.
I have nothing personally against OATS, but I do get the impression they are a spent force.
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You cannot be serious
IMHO the OATS APP is one of the most cynical marketing cons that the flight school industry has spat out for as long as I’ve been aware of it (since I was about 16). They charge £72,000 for the same course that BAe charge £54,000 for.
All this rubbish about selection is rubbish – if it was meaningful selection, you would get through sponsorship selection, and be on the eJ/JMC/Brit/CTC McAlpine/Buzz/etc cadet schemes, and not be paying over the odds for a bog standard course. If you fail those selections, then go to OATS; harsh, but true. The exception to that is that you are out of the age limits for cadet schemes. I’m lucky; I’m not. If I was, I’d use my limited funds carefully, then apply to the CTC ATP scheme.
After the selection comes the training. OATS have a great reputation for groundschool; probably well deserved. But a pass is a pass. Who the hell gives a stuff about the ATPLs once you have them? The flight training is bog standard – up to CPL given in the States at a FAA school that OATS bought, and the IR bit back at Oxford. As far as I can see the £20K is justified by promising to tell you how to write a CV.
My assessment is that OATS are no worse than other schools – but I cannot detect anything about them that is better, and therefore they go on the reject pile as they are trying to con me out of money I cannot afford.
All this rubbish about selection is rubbish – if it was meaningful selection, you would get through sponsorship selection, and be on the eJ/JMC/Brit/CTC McAlpine/Buzz/etc cadet schemes, and not be paying over the odds for a bog standard course. If you fail those selections, then go to OATS; harsh, but true. The exception to that is that you are out of the age limits for cadet schemes. I’m lucky; I’m not. If I was, I’d use my limited funds carefully, then apply to the CTC ATP scheme.
After the selection comes the training. OATS have a great reputation for groundschool; probably well deserved. But a pass is a pass. Who the hell gives a stuff about the ATPLs once you have them? The flight training is bog standard – up to CPL given in the States at a FAA school that OATS bought, and the IR bit back at Oxford. As far as I can see the £20K is justified by promising to tell you how to write a CV.
My assessment is that OATS are no worse than other schools – but I cannot detect anything about them that is better, and therefore they go on the reject pile as they are trying to con me out of money I cannot afford.
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Tonyblair,
Congratulations on a well thought out line of argument.
You should sit the selection and then decide for yourself wether it is a load of rubbish.
The course does not cost £72,000. It costs £60000. Does that figure from BAe you qoute include their lovely accomodation and food, I doubt it. So you're quoting to me the MOST expensive OAT price you can muster and comparing that with the basic training cost from BAe. Twisting figures around to push a bad position, hmmm you'd make a good politician, is that why you chose your username?
I'm as cynical as the next person about OAT's motivation to got to the 'revolutionary' APP scheme, but don't go throwing random figures about.
People here are going on out doing it the modular way and saving 20k. How is that possible exactly? Someone mentions doing it all for £43,000. Does this include all examination fees, skill tests, text books, food for the time of study and the total cost of the mortgage they paid out whilst studying? From a number of people that I have consulted with the modular route comes out to about the same cost of 60K in the end.
The fact of the matter is that no one has come out of the APP scheme yet so no one can say exactly how employable they are or whether they will join that back of the queue with the other OAT grads.
I am not here for an argument, just the facts.
PT
All this rubbish about selection is rubbish – if it was meaningful selection, you would get through sponsorship selection
You should sit the selection and then decide for yourself wether it is a load of rubbish.
The course does not cost £72,000. It costs £60000. Does that figure from BAe you qoute include their lovely accomodation and food, I doubt it. So you're quoting to me the MOST expensive OAT price you can muster and comparing that with the basic training cost from BAe. Twisting figures around to push a bad position, hmmm you'd make a good politician, is that why you chose your username?
I'm as cynical as the next person about OAT's motivation to got to the 'revolutionary' APP scheme, but don't go throwing random figures about.
People here are going on out doing it the modular way and saving 20k. How is that possible exactly? Someone mentions doing it all for £43,000. Does this include all examination fees, skill tests, text books, food for the time of study and the total cost of the mortgage they paid out whilst studying? From a number of people that I have consulted with the modular route comes out to about the same cost of 60K in the end.
The fact of the matter is that no one has come out of the APP scheme yet so no one can say exactly how employable they are or whether they will join that back of the queue with the other OAT grads.
I am not here for an argument, just the facts.
PT
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BAE costs 92000 euros inc accomodation and food.
This equals about 60k.
OATS course is 60k without food etc so i calculate you'll need another 10k for accomodation + food in Tyler if your cheap!
I'm doing the selection at Oxford to get an idea of what that place is about and how they can justify the 10k+
At the moment, assuming ctc mac don't want me, i'll be hitting BAE late this year.
The thing that draws me away from oxford is what 10k can buy you. Half a type rating on a 737, instructors rating etc
Anyway, i'm going for selection for the APP soon so i'll keep you posted on my thoughts and opinions
Red Ice
This equals about 60k.
OATS course is 60k without food etc so i calculate you'll need another 10k for accomodation + food in Tyler if your cheap!
I'm doing the selection at Oxford to get an idea of what that place is about and how they can justify the 10k+
At the moment, assuming ctc mac don't want me, i'll be hitting BAE late this year.
The thing that draws me away from oxford is what 10k can buy you. Half a type rating on a 737, instructors rating etc
Anyway, i'm going for selection for the APP soon so i'll keep you posted on my thoughts and opinions
Red Ice
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It cost me £4500 incl full board in 1967 at Oxford for CPL/IR Perf A!! Does not sound much now but you could buy a nice house then for £5000. £60000 doesn't buy a rabbit hutch now.
F/O HS125 1969 Salary £2000 pa
First Charter Airline F/O 1972 £4000pa I never felt poor in those days.!!
F/O HS125 1969 Salary £2000 pa
First Charter Airline F/O 1972 £4000pa I never felt poor in those days.!!