FTE Jerez Feedback?

[flyingdoctor357]

Originally Posted by VariablePitchP

What has caused your family to take that view? Something must have, my guess is perhaps fancy marketing brochures with pictures of 19 year olds with 4 gold stripes, a bomber jacket and RayBans? It’s all guff, you get the same bit of paper at the end.

As excellent and respected posters have said (when Alex Whittingham replies, listen) already, integrated schools risk becoming a bit of a pyramid scheme with regards to their financial bedrock. It all collapses and you’re in a far worse position being integrated than modular.

You are in a sausage factory if you go integrated, the last thing you want in the current climate is to have your licence issue date controlled by the school. Go modular and you can control it, you want to be able to time it when the jobs are, as they are now, finally re-emerging.

If it’s just arrogance then, ultimately, at least it’s mostly their money they’re wasting and not yours.

Ultimately your final line has hit the nail on the head - I come from a cliche background of city workers who are very confident their opinion is correct and there is no point arguing: as you say, ultimately it's not my money and without their backing I'd have a lot of saving to do so without wishing to sound too entitled, if things go terribly wrong I'm not losing out much fiscally; and if things go according to plan I have an (expensive) ATPL that for the most part didn't come from my income.

Whilst I'm skeptical of a lot of the integrated schools' liquidity, I think (perhaps optimistically?) that FTE are okay on the grounds they offered a couple of full scholarships recently so they're either sufficiently liquid or just have a psychotic financial advisor; and CAE must be okay on the grounds that MPL programmes are presumably highly profitable given the lack of actual flying hours so any money lost through their ATPL scheme is likely recouped through their margins on the MPL.

Originally Posted by Contact Approach

If this is the case then CAE is your only option. EasyJets future recruitment of low houred cadets will only come through CAE, this has been confirmed by the company. EasyJet rely heavily on the CAE for sims and you’ll see the EasyJet presence there when you visit. A deal was agreed between both parties that CAE will provide cadets to EasyJet for the foreseeable future. Controversially the EasyJet MPL scheme is probably your best/only chance to get into the RHS and the course provides the structure your family seemingly need. However, be aware of the risks and be prepared to pay extortionate sums of money for the privilege, particularly if it all goes wrong. If money isn’t a priority then that’s the route to go.

Re EASA/U.K. and low houred U.K. jobs: be aware you only have two real options in the U.K. presently and one of those requires an easa licence (Ryanair), they do not accept U.K. licences. The only other option would be Wizz and they require a U.K. licence.

This is what I thought as well, but only last week I saw L3 bragging that a large proportion of their ATPL graduates had successfully completed their first round of ezy assessments - I presume they are the same low hour pilots but they didn't offer too many details. Maybe easyJet are just leading them all on

As for the MPL, the family saw what happened to the MPLs during covid as that made the news, and despite money not being the priority feel it is not a risk worth taking; which to an extent I agree with: I was recently reading that ezy are not recovering as fast as they had expected and the last thing I want is to be shafted without the scope to apply to other airlines - off the top of my head, Wizz and Jet2 both come to mind, and at least having the scope to apply to them with the ATPL feels logical despite it possibly taking a while to get an offer from them. I like to think I'm fairly good at the old interview and aptitude tests (once upon a time I was going to be a doctor and I had offers to some very good universities indeed ) so if there is hiring to be had and I manage to put the networking hat on in the next year or two I hope I might be fairly competitive, in the non-type rated low hour pool that is which I appreciate is not a very competitive position to be in...

tl;dr I shall be in touch with both CAE and FTE to see whether ezy are recruiting their ATPL grads and if so what proportion and will go from there I think.
I don't think I would/could ever go for an MPL just because I would not have the resource to convert it to an ATPL if I were stuffed, but with any luck if CAE (or FTE) ATPLs are being recruited in substantive numbers to ezy or another low-cost UK carrier, it will provide a little comfort. Both of them provide discounted IR renewals if things go long term and I think a BEng gives enough latitude to do something other than driving tesco vans if it is going to take more than a year or two to get an RHS job.
Plus, as someone mentioned up above, 18-24 months of training is a very long time and, hopefully, things may be looking up a little - I think the average Brit will forego a lot of things before their holiday abroad!

Originally Posted by Arena_33

Ryanair require EASA licence even if living in the UK. Would your family be happy with you flying for RYR?

Have you got your class 1 yet? worth thinking about getting both CAA and EASA class 1 initial if you're looking to obtain both licences

I think my family will be happy with any job at a well known carrier, so I dare say yes - I have at least managed to get them to understand that I am not going to graduate and get a job with BA two weeks later!
Already have the UKCAA class 1, certainly wouldn't have got this far through the process without checking I can actually get one of those - was a bit of a moron and managed to completely miss the fact that the class 1s are no longer valid for EASA so am in the process of burning through my wallet and getting an initial from them as well.

[flyingintheclouds]

Originally Posted by flyingdoctor357

The easyjet/CAE thing is a good point given I live next to Gatwick so I would aim to start my career with them to be honest (shamelessly live with parents for a year or two so as to afford a house deposit) - I dare say though that if they're hiring from L3, which I understand to have a less than stellar reputation at this point, they're likely to look to hiring from FTE as well? I know in 2017 they were hiring FTE graduates, but 2017 may as well be 1000 years ago with what's happened since, and I can't seem to find any information since.
The whole 'a licence is a licence' thing was mentioned so I'm not quite sure whether CAE actually gives a tangible advantage insofar as easyjet is concerned, but I guess training next to the MPLs must confer something.
I would have gone for the easyJet MPL but, without wishing to sound too cynical, I don't want to be shafted if easyJet decide they can't afford to take on all their graduates or enter financial troubles before I hit 1500hrs - whether my cynicism is misplaced or not I don't know but the two things I see often here are modular good (which I know, but can't do) and MPL bad (which I know, and can avoid)!

If we take it from the perspective of "I want to work for easyJet" which is somewhat accurate, would you say CAE is the wiser choice regardless of whether FTE provided better training?

As mentioned in this thread CAE are contracted for ezy for the cadet flow for the next ~5 years. However they have been taking cadets from L3 as they need so many (you’ll see this is true from LinkedIn etc.
However I know FTE cadets personally that have been left in the cold that were ex Ezy MPL and then moved in covid to turn to ATPL and they have not been reaccepted by ezy so take that as you will.

If you’re set on it being easyJet then the MPL is the best option. Don’t get me wrong there are flaws which have been shown in the past couple of years, but it’s probably the best tagged course around (finances aside).
Unfortunately it doesn’t seem they hire from modular guys it’s the big two schools only.

[A320LGW]

I personally know a few ex easyJet MPL cadets and their stories are just shocking of how easyJet treated them. Dropped like hot potatoes. Their "good guys" marketing image is literally just that; marketing.

For the cost of the MPL you could go modular, pay for the rating with Ryanair and still be left with a lot of money to spare. You'd also still be eligible for Wizz should you prefer that. Think long and hard before going MPL because if easyJet do drop you, you are tied into one specific license that is only valid for one operator for a long time. CAE will seek to benefit and charge you multiples of 10s of thousands to switch to the ATPL course if easyJet drop you during training like previous guys (despite it not costing them anything). The guys this happened to previously switched to FTE mid training.

[A320LGW]

Originally Posted by flyingintheclouds

As mentioned in this thread CAE are contracted for ezy for the cadet flow for the next ~5 years. However they have been taking cadets from L3 as they need so many (you’ll see this is true from LinkedIn etc.
However I know FTE cadets personally that have been left in the cold that were ex Ezy MPL and then moved in covid to turn to ATPL and they have not been reaccepted by ezy so take that as you will.

If you’re set on it being easyJet then the MPL is the best option. Don’t get me wrong there are flaws which have been shown in the past couple of years, but it’s probably the best tagged course around (finances aside).
Unfortunately it doesn’t seem they hire from modular guys it’s the big two schools only.

Indeed, brown envelopes and sim deals abound.

[flyingdoctor357]

Originally Posted by A320LGW

I personally know a few ex easyJet MPL cadets and their stories are just shocking of how easyJet treated them. Dropped like hot potatoes. Their "good guys" marketing image is literally just that; marketing.

For the cost of that you could go modular, pay for the rating with Ryanair and still be left with a lot of money to spare. You'd also still be eligible for Wizz should you prefer that.

I think what you say here is the approach I'm going to take, minus the modular bit due to my above post (if/when it gets approved!) - I can probably find the money for the ryr rating afterwards either through convincing the family or just working as an engineer to save up.
Edit: A tl;dr for if the above post isn't approved any time soon, the reason for the integrated is pretty much what VariablePitchP said above - I will not convince the people funding three quarters of my qualifications that modular is a good idea, and since it is not my money I am using (and my money is inadequate even for a modular approach) I may as well take the integrated approach. Perhaps optimistically, I believe that FTE handing out ATPL scholarships, and CAE with their MPL profit margins, are likely liquid enough to not have problems for the next couple of years, and both of their payment plans are structured in such a way that I'm not out of all my money before I start flying.
I'm deeply uncomfortable being tied to a single airline until I can convert the MPL given it costs the same as getting an integrated ATPL.
That might sound a little crazy coming from someone who is about to embark on an integrated course so is, in effect, burning money, but I find it comforting that an fATPL opens up the door to ryr/wizz/jet2 were ezy to enter problems at any point in the MPL or before conversion and treat their MPLs like they did last time (even if they do all now have jobs again), so at least it's burning money rather than gambling it.

Now all I need to find out is whether ezy are recruiting any ATPLs from FTE or whether it's only CAE MPLs and L3 ATPLs!
Emails shall be exchanged to find out whether FTE still is well connected with the likes of ezy/ryr/wizz/jet2 i.e. airlines that will hire me as a non EU citizen - once upon a time ezy recruited FTE ATPLs on campus and they do still list ezy as an 'airline partner' on their website (as much as I appreciate there is a lot of marketing in that term) but little information beyond that can be gleaned from their pages.

[portsharbourflyer]

The only reason Easyjet have taken CAE whitetails recently and L3 cadets is because the MPL supply dried up Nearly all the 2019 CAE MPL intake transferred to integrated courses during covid.

In September 2020 Easyjet recinded the job offer of every MPL and Tagged cadet at CAE. Most of the MPLs transferred to the fATPL at CAE. For those at core phase 1 this wasn't much of an issue as all of core phase 1 was identical to pt1 to pt2 phase of the integrated. The ones that got caught out were those past core phase 2. Due to the pseudo multi crew way cp2 is taught it wasn't cross creditable to the integrated route. It was most of that contingent that transferred to FTE. A small number of the CAE MPLs also went to Leading Edge due to the delays at CAE. It is also worth noting those that transferred to FTE finished training 6 months or more quicker than those that stayed at CAE. In about Oct or November 2020 Easyjet issued a letter to say all previous MPLs and tagged would be eligible to enter a 2 year hold pool. So those that transferred to FTE lost their position in the hold pool.

The poster above is correct CAE are contracted to supply 200 MPLs per year to Easy. This suggests that there will be no more tagged integrated and no more white tails going to Easy in the future. I suspect Easyjet know nothing about true workings of CAE Oxford. Easyjet persistently present at PCL about CAE but it is evident the Senior Pilots that present at PCL have never spoken to any of the FIs at CAE.

[flyingdoctor357]

Originally Posted by portsharbourflyer

The poster above is correct CAE are contracted to supply 200 MPLs per year to Easy. This suggests that there will be no more tagged integrated and no more white tails going to Easy in the future. I suspect Easyjet know nothing about true workings of CAE Oxford. Easyjet persistently present at PCL about CAE but it is evident the Senior Pilots that present at PCL have never spoken to any of the FIs at CAE.

This is a good point: I was surprised to see ezy recruiting any white tails given the number of MPLs they have each year but I did neglect to check when their flow of MPLs started again after covid.

I'd be interested to know the fate of those who transferred onto the ATPL programme at FTE and if (and where) they have jobs now.
With how fluid the employment situation is it feels like it's a) more reason to do an ATPL over an MPL due to the inherent risk of loss of employment and b) the exact training provider is probably less relevant if ezy are unlikely to be hiring white tails unless CAE have also suddenly got close ties to wizz/ryr/jet2 or FTE no longer care much for their British student cohort since Brexit came into effect last year.

[portsharbourflyer]

Wizz Air seem to be take alot of Skyborne and L3 grads.

Jet2 the pilot apprentice scheme is open to all and reasonable numbers of modular have been recruited.

Ryanair now have their mentored schools but do take modular. CAE MPL seems to be the only way to Easyjet in the future . Ask yourself do you really feel safe flying at Easyjet now past MPLs are now getting upgraded to Captain. While the MPL has certain merits it is designed for high ability pre selected candidates. When you need to find 200 pre selected candidates with 100k spare per year you can't retain that pre selection criteria. Put it this way alot of Senior Captains at Eastjet have only ever flown a DA42 and an Airbus and have no other flying experience. So it is an airline where the majority of it's Pilots have never flown anything challenging.

[flyingdoctor357]

Originally Posted by portsharbourflyer

Wizz Air seem to be take alot of Skyborne and L3 grads.

Jet2 the pilot apprentice scheme is open to all and reasonable numbers of modular have been recruited.

Ryanair now have their mentored schools but do take modular. CAE MPL seems to be the only way to Easyjet in the future . Ask yourself do you really feel safe flying at Easyjet now past MPLs are now getting upgraded to Captain. Put it this way alot of Senior Captains at Eastjet have only ever flown a DA42 and an Airbus and have no other flying experience. So it is an airline where the majority of it's Pilots have never flown anything challenging.

I did look at Skyborne recently - the only reason I haven't applied is because honestly I don't have the willpower to pay and undertake another round of aptitude testing until applying to airlines I also think that FTE is probably just as good - probably.

I do really like the look of the Jet2 apprentice scheme and if I got offers from every single airline recruiting low hours I would take the Jet2 scheme in a heartbeat because I like being a well-rounded human; I'm worried that by the time I graduate it'll be either saturated or nigh on to the point where getting a place is far too competitive but that being said one could hope that they have enough outflow through retirement/people moving to LH/other airlines that the scheme will continue.
I can't find any indication of the cost of the scheme but I have accepted at this point I will probably need to find another 30k for type rating after I graduate - doable via family or taking a year to work.

I'm getting the feeling that ezy is somewhat out of the question - not something I'm too upset about as I'm not prepared to gamble on an MPL - and I should look to wizz/ryr/jet2! The good news is wizz were at FTE in July talking about their UK recruitment so I think there is enough potential to get a job with them via FTE. I don't know about jet2 but from the sounds of it they're sensible(?) and accept that an fATPL is an fATPL so I don't need to choose so carefully thinking about them.

[A320LGW]

You don't need to have trained at any particular school to get called by Wizz for an assessment

[portsharbourflyer]

You are correct A320, there are modulars getting into Wizz, but there does seem to be high numbers from Skyborne and L3 getting into Wizz UK.
I do hear overall good press about Skyborne.

[Contact Approach]

Simply:

• Easyjet MPL through CAE is your only option for any chance of the RHS at EasyJet. Avoid L3 at all costs.
  
• Ryr/Wizz/Jet2 don’t care where you trained whatsoever. Many of my friends went modular, paid £50k for their licences and completed it in less time than the integrated courses. The entry salary for ryr is £16k, jet2 PA ~£22k and I believe wizz is around the same.
  
• A Ryr TR will cost you £35k when all said and done and you’ll need an EASA licence.
  
• Wizz as a company are notoriously bad to work for and the Jet2 PA is massively over subscribed and only opens a few times a year for only 10ish places per intake.
  

Ultimately you really need to know the facts before making any decision. You seem adamant you want to go Integrated against the collective advice given here which still makes little sense to me. The EasyJet MPL is the only integrated scheme that could possibly justify itself as it’s proven but risky.

Modular guys tend to be more well rounded Individuals and get exposed to more flying and come out with approx 50+ more hours than integrated cadets. You’ll find yourself at an airline assessment and no one actually cares one bit where you trained. You’ll have just paid double what everyone else has for the same measly unsustainable entry salary.

[flyingdoctor357]

Originally Posted by Contact Approach

Simply:

• Easyjet MPL through CAE is your only option for any chance of the RHS at EasyJet. Avoid L3 at all costs.
  
• Ryr/Wizz/Jet2 don’t care where you trained whatsoever. Many of my friends went modular, paid £50k for their licences and completed it in less time than the integrated courses. The entry salary for ryr is £16k, jet2 PA ~£22k and I believe wizz is around the same.
  
• A Ryr TR will cost you £35k when all said and done and you’ll need an EASA licence.
  
• Wizz as a company are notoriously bad to work for and the Jet2 PA is massively over subscribed and only opens a few times a year for only 10ish places per intake.
  

Ultimately you really need to know the facts before making any decision. You seem adamant you want to go Integrated against the collective advice given here which still makes little sense to me. The EasyJet MPL is the only integrated scheme that could possibly justify itself as it’s proven but risky.

Modular guys tend to be more well rounded Individuals and get exposed to more flying and come out with approx 50+ more hours than integrated cadets. You’ll find yourself at an airline assessment and no one actually cares one bit where you trained. You’ll have just paid double what everyone else has for the same measly unsustainable entry salary.

I don't know what to tell you here as to my 'adamance': as I've explained earlier, the source of the majority of my funding will not accept modular as an acceptable option - if someone is offering me money that it would take me years to save up to do what I've wanted to do my whole life, I'm going to take it - if you think that is unwise then we can agree to disagree!
I can assure you that you could put them in a room of pilots saying modular is the way to go - it will not be enough.
Ultimately, it won't be me who has paid double what everyone else has - and I am in a privileged enough position where my entry salary can be topped up: if I cared about that, I would either have become a doctor or used my engineering degree to become a banker.

That all being said, I do appreciate where you are coming from.
It sounds to me like, given my position, I may as well train at either and try to get a dual license if I can, then see what the world looks like in 2 years.

[Arena_33]

Can your family sponsor me please - sounds like they've got enough to divvy out a few scholarships themselves!

[flying.scotsman1]

This thread is just an indication as to how much of a joke this industry has become. Paying 100k+ for an entry level job that pays just over minimum wage requiring a 'salary top up'. Give me a break....

[Contact Approach]

By all means train where you want to train. You mention they are prepared to source 75% of the training, I’m speculating the rest is coming from yourself? If they’re so blindly adamant I question why they’re not fully sponsoring you. An integrated course including living costs then selection and type rating at Ryanair will cost approx £150,000 - £170,000. That’s not factoring renewing your medicals/IR if the market isn’t favourable upon finishing so have a plan for that. You’ll need to obtain both an EASA and UK licence to be eligible for Ryanair which involves two sets of everything including 28 ATPL exams instead of the 14. If you can get your foot in the door with an engineering job i’d try use that as a way of sustaining yourself after training until you manage to find a flying job. Your only problem then would be ditching a fairly secure and stable job to take a substantial pay cut.

If I were you I’d either join the EasyJet MPL scheme or spend the next two years establishing myself as an engineer whilst training at the same time, building up a prosperous network along the way. You’ll be in a far better position and will probably find a better first job because of it. Each to their own of course…

[portsharbourflyer]

Easyjet SO salaries are 40k a year, so better than most other entry level job. But the issue is it is only open to those who can foot the 100k bill to start with.

[Contact Approach]

Originally Posted by portsharbourflyer

Easyjet SO salaries are 40k a year, so better than most other entry level job. But the issue is it is only open to those who can foot the 100k bill to start with.

As I suggested to the OP, the EasyJet MPL is the only scheme I’d recommend if going integrated. It’s not without huge risk though. I’m sure the sponsors could afford to top up the training to an ATPL should that situation arise…

[flyingdoctor357]

Originally Posted by flying.scotsman1

This thread is just an indication as to how much of a joke this industry has become. Paying 100k+ for an entry level job that pays just over minimum wage requiring a 'salary top up'. Give me a break....

To be fair, my other industry was medicine - which costs 125k in uni fees/living costs to get paid just over minimum wage in the NHS: my salary as a pilot actually increases (per hour) faster than as a doctor, and if I take an optimistic approach and say I'll make it LH, peaks substantially higher than an NHS consultant.
Whilst engineering certainly is a more stable profession that I may well take the above advice and do for a while, the grass isn't necessarily always greener!
One would begin to think the UK is just not a great place to live...

[flyingdoctor357]

Originally Posted by Contact Approach

As I suggested to the OP, the EasyJet MPL is the only scheme I’d recommend if going integrated. It’s not without huge risk though. I’m sure the sponsors could afford to top up the training to an ATPL should that situation arise…

'could' and 'would' are unfortunately two different terms when it comes to my sponsors - it is difficult to explain the extent to which sums of money are ringfenced and prescribed for very specific things that the overlords think is best...
Even if I could persuade them the MPL was sensible, despite the higher starting salary, I think I'm too late to the party with the ezy MPL if they run into trouble and don't believe the reward outweighs the risk; as someone else mentioned earlier in this thread they don't have a track record of treating their MPLs wonderfully if trouble were to arise - I'd rather use an engineer salary to pay for the medicals/renewals and join an airline later with a license that gives me the flexibility to do so.
Ultimately salaries in this country, given cost of living and abysmal management of our economy exacerbating it, are nigh on all insufficient to live of present and unless I sell my soul to London, there is little point in trying to think I can make ends meet in the first few years of a career as a lot of my colleagues have recently found out - other than perhaps as an engineer for pharma/MoD which is where I would probably end up.