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Modular V Integrated (Merged) - Look here before starting a new thread!

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Modular V Integrated (Merged) - Look here before starting a new thread!

Old 27th Jul 2023, 14:00
  #1041 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mystify2431
Thanks. Well that's encouraging to hear that I probably have some of those costs wrong then. I was taking quotes that I'd seen for those respective packages but hadn't figured that a per-hour rate would probably be better. For the hour-building, I can't find anything that much cheaper in my area though, but I'll hopefully be able to take a chunk off in a package somewhere sunnier.
Where are you based?
The easiest option if you're working full time is a two week package holiday to Florida and fly 50 hours. Do that twice and you've covered your hour building. The IRR is a bit on the high side, you should be able to get it for £3000. The simplest option for CBIR is 40 hours and is essentially the same course but longer, so expect it to cost £8000, but you wouldn't need the IRR in that case. Or you can choose to do the 15 hours IRR then 10 hours by yourself, then finish with another 15 hours instruction to upgrade from IRR to IR. That should be slightly cheaper at £6000 plus the extra 10 hours.
The MEP is 6 hours. The SEIR to MEIR is 5 hours (3 of which can be SIM) so it should cost less than the MEP but budget about the same and you'll be covered.
After PPL and Night (50 hours) your aircraft hire should be:
IRR>CBIR 40 hours, £7500
MEP 6 hours, £3000-3500
MEIR 5 hours, £2500-3000
CPL 15 hours, £4500
Hour Building 84 hours, £8400
Total: 150 hours, £25900-26900. Based on normal UK prices. Plus of course all the incidentals you mentioned like tests, exams, licence and landing fees etc, but still definitely a reasonable figure.

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Old 2nd Aug 2023, 19:52
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Hey guys!
I've been following this thread for quite some time, very insightful!

A short background : Currently 30 years old working full time in London and planning to switch career as an airline pilot, but due to visa restrictions I'd only be able to join integrated course in 7 months at least ( March 2024 )

I initially thought to do an integrated course just because I want to start my career as a pilot as soon as possible, which if I were to take the integrated course it will probably be the end of 2025, if Im lucky enough to secure a job right after

But then I thought, I could probably start a modular route by doing part time for the next 7 months for PPL, then convert to full-time modular student. Which seems to be about the same time to get the ATPL license and potentially saving quite a lot of money?

I will need to get a loan and help from my family anyways so just weighing out the two options. Thanks in advance!
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Old 3rd Aug 2023, 21:08
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Following up on my thread above.

I saw this article about a modular student getting into Easyjet and his final stages of modular was done with L3Harris : http://www.pilotcareernews.com/toms-...-with-easyjet/
Also this one saying that the British Airways Whitetail programme will select potential candidates from 5 major ATOs during/after their training ( integrated and modular ) : http://www.*****************/2023/07...lified-pilots/
Basically from what I understood, these airlines tend to 'like' students from these schools anyways?

So after some rough calculations, if I were to do my PPL, ATPL and Hour building with a local, more affordable flight school, then go to the big ones to do the rest of the training. The price difference seems quite small around 10-15k, especially if I want to do dual license.

I guess 10-15k is still quite a lot of money and will take some time to pay back?
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Old 31st Aug 2023, 23:31
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Modular is better

Originally Posted by G-FATTY
Hi checkxp,
I did my training all modular and came out with the same pieces of paper in the end as any intergrated fATPL holder, for less than 1/2 the price (if it costs £100,000!! above)

2 years! - PPL for £6200, 45hrs
6months - ATPL groundschool fulltime Cabair £2250 + living exp. = £3,200 (good name, would recommend groundschool @ Bournemouth).
5months - Hour building @ £70ph + landing fees etc = £8500 - UK based
3months - Multi CPL/IR at PAT, Bournemouth = £26,000inc exams - (great name, instructors) + living exp.£1,600
1 week - MCC @ European = £1,900 living exp £120

Modular route......priceless!
(Total: £48,170)

under 15months taken out from completing PPL.
200.1 hours total.

I think my training was picking the best of each stage in my view. The level of training was as high as I believe it can get and I feel that each training organisation above was providing a tailor made course to suit my needs.
At the end of the day though I am not guaranteed an interview, as I believe some intergrated course offer, but I would prefer to go to an interview saying I managed my training on both cost and a hight level of training, than to turn up to an interview that was included in a package.

In answer to your question, I would have £51,830 left for a Type Rating until im evens with a intergrated students price.
If only I had that money left over!

Thought this may be of some interest. Good luck with the training.
I think modular is better mate,
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Old 8th Sep 2023, 13:35
  #1045 (permalink)  
 
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Hello everyone. Following on from some of the points above, what would those with experience say is a realistic Modular cost in the UK?

I'm currently looking to start an Integrated in Greece as it's much cheaper than UK Integrated courses. I've phoned a few UK flight schools (Aeros, L3, ACS) and getting a clear answer for even a ballpark figure has been impossible for Modular routes. Each just says, their Integrated course would be better.

I would prefer to do joint CAA and EASA licences but let's even say for the UK licence, any ballpark figures to go zero to fATPL via modular?

Much obliged folks and thanks for taking the time to read.
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Old 5th Oct 2023, 16:17
  #1046 (permalink)  
 
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Does anyone know any info in regards to finishing a UK CAA PPL, and doing the rest of the license modular abroad in Europe?
I enquired at certain flight schools, but they require you to do you're hour building in a UK registered aircraft, and do the EASA ATPL's, then complete the rest of the license off with them.
Can you do hour building at different flights schools? which are not in the UK, e.g. in Florida or somewhere in Europe. Which might workout to be cheaper than UK to do hour building.
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Old 6th Oct 2023, 04:53
  #1047 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Zembla82
I would prefer to do joint CAA and EASA licences but let's even say for the UK licence, any ballpark figures to go zero to fATPL via modular?
In the UK at typical prices about £45,000-£50,000 is achievable if you do everything in the optimal order. It's relatively easy to price it up using any flight schools rate-sheet. To finish your fATPL with the CPL test you need at least 200 hours total (with a minimum of 12 hours multi engine) and 77 hours of dual instruction. Plus the cost of medical, ATPL theory, exams, flight tests and licence and landing fees.

Using £175ph (SEP), £450ph (MEP) and £60(Instructor) as an example:
(188x175)+(12×450)+(77*60) = £42,920.

That's doing it all in the UK at school rates. If you split your hour building into 2 blocks of 2 weeks of 50 hours and do it in Florida at £100 per hour (probably cheaper) then even if you spend £2000 each time on flights and hotels you'll save £3500 which brings the cost of aircraft and instructor below £40,000. Plus you'll get the hours a lot quicker.






Last edited by rudestuff; 6th Oct 2023 at 05:34.
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Old 6th Oct 2023, 04:54
  #1048 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flyaviation15
Can you do hour building at different flights schools? which are not in the UK, e.g. in Florida or somewhere in Europe. Which might workout to be cheaper than UK to do hour building.
Yes you can, its called modular for that reason.
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Old 8th Oct 2023, 13:04
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Originally Posted by rudestuff
In the UK at typical prices about £45,000-£50,000 is achievable if you do everything in the optimal order. It's relatively easy to price it up using any flight schools rate-sheet. To finish your fATPL with the CPL test you need at least 200 hours total (with a minimum of 12 hours multi engine) and 77 hours of dual instruction. Plus the cost of medical, ATPL theory, exams, flight tests and licence and landing fees.

Using £175ph (SEP), £450ph (MEP) and £60(Instructor) as an example:
(188x175)+(12×450)+(77*60) = £42,920.

That's doing it all in the UK at school rates. If you split your hour building into 2 blocks of 2 weeks of 50 hours and do it in Florida at £100 per hour (probably cheaper) then even if you spend £2000 each time on flights and hotels you'll save £3500 which brings the cost of aircraft and instructor below £40,000. Plus you'll get the hours a lot quicker.
Hey rudestuff,

Currently in a similarish career to airlines, just via a different medium....

I've seen you say that now has never been better than to go for the training. I've seen others say that even taking out a loan to part fund is an option worth considering (sorry I can't remember who).

My day job pays well. However it will take me a year or two to save up the figures quoted for modular. There are a few options I have been thinking about;

1. Take as big a loan as I can get, and save up the remaining difference = less time to fATPL and more chances of employment "quicker" in this market, and thus total career earnings. However more debt and first job could be on regional carrier with low pay and high repayments...

2. Save up everything I need including living expenses and then do it all off my own back = will take 2/3 years to save up properly and may have missed my "chance" in the market. However no debt and if I get first job with regional, I'll not be struggling with repayments. Though final career earnings could be less??

3. A balance of the two options. Save up half and loan the other half = best of both worlds or worst of both worlds?

Any thoughts on the above?

Cheers
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Old 10th Oct 2023, 10:09
  #1050 (permalink)  
 
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Hello everyone!

I am interested in pursuing an EASA ATPL course in Europe. However, being a Russian citizen, I have encountered difficulties finding schools that accept students from my country. Among the options, I am particularly considering FlyBy in Burgos. Could you please provide some insights on the feasibility of completing an integrated course within 14 months, successfully passing all requirements, fulfilling the required flight hours, and avoiding any unnecessary expenses?
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Old 10th Oct 2023, 19:10
  #1051 (permalink)  
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So FlyBy said that it is do-able within 14 months (and I met someone who was going to finihs within 14 months when I visted) however most students apparnetly complete it in 16-18 months. So actually it's the advertised EUR75000 + EUR3700 per additional month I believe. For a small school, you may be better off spending the money elsewhere that's better known and with less presure to get it done super quickly. Having said that, it looks like a great price and the staff there were really passionate about the school when I visited.

Do you think you would be accepted in Poland? BartoliniAir have a Lauda-mentored and RyanAir-mentored ATPL for EUR60000 at the moment.

http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...hool-leon.html
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Old 11th Oct 2023, 00:01
  #1052 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cede
Hey rudestuff,

Currently in a similarish career to airlines, just via a different medium....

I've seen you say that now has never been better than to go for the training. I've seen others say that even taking out a loan to part fund is an option worth considering (sorry I can't remember who).

My day job pays well. However it will take me a year or two to save up the figures quoted for modular. There are a few options I have been thinking about;

1. Take as big a loan as I can get, and save up the remaining difference = less time to fATPL and more chances of employment "quicker" in this market, and thus total career earnings. However more debt and first job could be on regional carrier with low pay and high repayments...

2. Save up everything I need including living expenses and then do it all off my own back = will take 2/3 years to save up properly and may have missed my "chance" in the market. However no debt and if I get first job with regional, I'll not be struggling with repayments. Though final career earnings could be less??

3. A balance of the two options. Save up half and loan the other half = best of both worlds or worst of both worlds?

Any thoughts on the above?

Cheers
You mentioned career earnings - which means you understand the importance of getting into the industry sooner rather than later. Don't be afraid of unsecured debt (in the UK at least.) The worst that can happen is that you get a black mark against your name. Work out the largest repayments you could comfortably afford and multiply that by the longest loan period to find out hour much you could borrow and save the rest.
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Old 24th Oct 2023, 19:31
  #1053 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rudestuff
In the UK at typical prices about £45,000-£50,000 is achievable if you do everything in the optimal order. It's relatively easy to price it up using any flight schools rate-sheet. To finish your fATPL with the CPL test you need at least 200 hours total (with a minimum of 12 hours multi engine) and 77 hours of dual instruction. Plus the cost of medical, ATPL theory, exams, flight tests and licence and landing fees.

Using £175ph (SEP), £450ph (MEP) and £60(Instructor) as an example:
(188x175)+(12×450)+(77*60) = £42,920.

That's doing it all in the UK at school rates. If you split your hour building into 2 blocks of 2 weeks of 50 hours and do it in Florida at £100 per hour (probably cheaper) then even if you spend £2000 each time on flights and hotels you'll save £3500 which brings the cost of aircraft and instructor below £40,000. Plus you'll get the hours a lot quicker.
I'm confused how you got £42,920 for zero to fATPL, why is instructor £60? Getting a PPL itself needs 45 hours of minimum hours, at stapleford its £210 per hour in a cessna 152. £210*45 for the ppl + landing fees + test fee it would set you back more than £12k, and thats just the PPL.

It's similar for Redhill aviation centre, even with their discounted training they totaled the cost of a PPL to £12k. It's on their website on the prices page.
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Old 25th Oct 2023, 05:38
  #1054 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by modularlover11
I'm confused how you got £42,920 for zero to fATPL
It's just maths. Maybe follow through with a calculator.

Originally Posted by modularlover11
why is instructor £60?
Because you have to pay them, and schools make a lot of their profit on dual instruction. If a school charges £210 for dual and £150 for solo then you're paying (210-150=60) extra to cover the cost of the instructor. [/QUOTE]
Originally Posted by modularlover11
Getting a PPL itself needs 45 hours of minimum hours, at stapleford its £210 per hour in a cessna 152. £210*45 for the ppl + landing fees + test fee it would set you back more than £12k, and thats just the PPL.
A couple of points: Firstly there is usually a solo price and a dual price. It looks like they're charging dual for the whole 45 hours. However it's including VAT so not unreasonable. Secondly 210×45 = 9450 and Stapleford are currently offering 45 hours for £8977.50 total, including landing fees. Certainly not £12k.

Using their numbers for all the SE work and flying a Technam to save a bit more:
PPL first 45 hours £8764. SEP @£143, MEP @£450, instructor @£62:

£8764 + (143hrs x £143) + (12hrs x £450) + (67hrs x £62) = £38,767 - which is even less than my estimated figures.

Add £1000 to upgrade to a complex single for 5 hours for CPL and your total cost for aircraft, instructor and landing fees will be less than £40k (and that's at school prices! You can save a lot more by using TMG, foreign flying, non-equity share, negotiating etc).
The remaining costs will be Medical, flight tests (but not aircraft rental!), ground school, exams and licence issue.



Last edited by rudestuff; 25th Oct 2023 at 06:01.
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Old 25th Oct 2023, 07:16
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Modular has so many advantages for me personally. Not just financial, but also flexibility and time.

Of course the point isn’t just to get a CPL-ME-IR, it’s to get a job in the RHS at the end of it.

All of the integrated course providers market their “graduate talent pool”, tagging / links with airlines.

Many of them also offer modular training with this same job-seeking support, but they charge significantly more for their modular courses.

My question is… when it comes to finding that first job, is having the support of a big training organisation like this worth paying a premium for?
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Old 25th Oct 2023, 09:22
  #1056 (permalink)  
 
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In my opinion, no. Plenty of people have been screwed by Integrated or MPL courses, and plenty of people have been hired from modular. Timing is everything, and when there are few jobs, the big schools may provide more opportunities. When jobs are plentiful that advantage disappears. The best strategy for getting an airline job is to get hired by an airline in a non-flying job, preferably in the office, then work for them while you're following the modular path. It doesn't guarantee you anything, but it does increase your chances ten-fold, it puts an airline on your CV and if you need a job in the mean time then it won't hurt. Companies love a good zero to hero story for the monthly news letter. I've seen plenty of people do it that way.
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Old 25th Oct 2023, 10:59
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Originally Posted by Terrence Trent Derby
Modular has so many advantages for me personally. Not just financial, but also flexibility and time.

Of course the point isn’t just to get a CPL-ME-IR, it’s to get a job in the RHS at the end of it.

All of the integrated course providers market their “graduate talent pool”, tagging / links with airlines.

Many of them also offer modular training with this same job-seeking support, but they charge significantly more for their modular courses.

My question is… when it comes to finding that first job, is having the support of a big training organisation like this worth paying a premium for?
Originally Posted by rudestuff
It's just maths. Maybe follow through with a calculator.

Because you have to pay them, and schools make a lot of their profit on dual instruction. If a school charges £210 for dual and £150 for solo then you're paying (210-150=60) extra to cover the cost of the instructor.
A couple of points: Firstly there is usually a solo price and a dual price. It looks like they're charging dual for the whole 45 hours. However it's including VAT so not unreasonable. Secondly 210×45 = 9450 and Stapleford are currently offering 45 hours for £8977.50 total, including landing fees. Certainly not £12k.

Using their numbers for all the SE work and flying a Technam to save a bit more:
PPL first 45 hours £8764. SEP @£143, MEP @£450, instructor @£62:

£8764 + (143hrs x £143) + (12hrs x £450) + (67hrs x £62) = £38,767 - which is even less than my estimated figures.

Add £1000 to upgrade to a complex single for 5 hours for CPL and your total cost for aircraft, instructor and landing fees will be less than £40k (and that's at school prices! You can save a lot more by using TMG, foreign flying, non-equity share, negotiating etc).
The remaining costs will be Medical, flight tests (but not aircraft rental!), ground school, exams and licence issue.[/QUOTE]

RedHill's website says their PPL will cost £12k, Staplefords own website also says it will cost £50-£60k w/o type rating.

Youre missing a lot of information, stapleford has its own brochure with the breakdown of fees from zero to CPL and it is greater than >£50k. Obviously people are going to trust that more than an anonymous forum post on a website. Its their pilot training pricelist in the quick links section.
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Old 25th Oct 2023, 14:34
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Originally Posted by PolomDrastiz
Youre missing a lot of information, stapleford has its own brochure with the breakdown of fees from zero to CPL and it is greater than >£50k. Obviously people are going to trust that more than an anonymous forum post on a website. Its their pilot training pricelist in the quick links section.
You don't need to trust an anonymous post, but you should consider it, then do your own research to confirm if it's plausible. The Reason Stapleford is saying higher figures is because they are a money making business. They will not give you the most cost effective option, they will offer the most expensive one the market will bear.

If you research the flight experience requirements for PPL, IMC, IR, CPl, MEP etc you will see that the most optimal order to do things is almost never offered by flight schools: PPL,NR,IMC,IR,MEP,MEIR,CPL.

You can take any flight school fATPL quote and reduce it by 10-20% using their own prices, simply by optimising the modules. To put it in one word - Simulators. They want you use simulators because their profit margin is 80% vs 10% in an airplane.
Simulators don't count as hour building, airplanes do.
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Old 25th Oct 2023, 15:26
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Originally Posted by rudestuff
You don't need to trust an anonymous post, but you should consider it, then do your own research to confirm if it's plausible. The Reason Stapleford is saying higher figures is because they are a money making business. They will not give you the most cost effective option, they will offer the most expensive one the market will bear.

If you research the flight experience requirements for PPL, IMC, IR, CPl, MEP etc you will see that the most optimal order to do things is almost never offered by flight schools: PPL,NR,IMC,IR,MEP,MEIR,CPL.

You can take any flight school fATPL quote and reduce it by 10-20% using their own prices, simply by optimising the modules. To put it in one word - Simulators. They want you use simulators because their profit margin is 80% vs 10% in an airplane.
Simulators don't count as hour building, airplanes do.
It's not that simple any more if you want dual EASA/UK licences. I'm currently guiding a family friend through modular and it genuinely is going to be over £70k after PPL, hour building, night rating, ATPLs (both exam sets), CPL ME/IR (dual licences), UPRT and APS MCC. On top of that they could be looking at £26k Sterling for RYR. These are figures for minimum hours in the UK including equipment and fees etc.
As for PPL costs mentioned above, most are charging dual even for solo flights. £200 per hour in a 152 comes to £9k. Add in exams fees, landing fees, touch and go fees, medical, equipment and you're nearing £11k. You'll then be looking at £150 per hour solo hire in a 152 x 100 is £15k. Add £5k for dual ATPLs. That brings you to £30k for PPL, hour building and ATPL exams. Going rate for dual EASA/UK CPL ME/IR in the UK is currently £30k.
Costs have skyrocketed a lot over the past year. He is getting quoted near £2k for night rating.
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Old 25th Oct 2023, 17:22
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Did you read any of what I wrote? Even a dual license should not cost any more than £50k. Plenty of schools offer both courses - the only thing you have to do twice is the exams, the ground school and even the flight tests can be done concurrently. It's all about the order of the modules. I can explain it for you. Unfortunately I can't understand it for you.

Last edited by rudestuff; 26th Oct 2023 at 05:50.
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