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Modular V Integrated (Merged) - Look here before starting a new thread!

Old 25th Oct 2023, 20:36
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Raising Awareness

Originally Posted by rudestuff
I can explain it for you. Unfortunately I can't understand it for you.
Since you have quite unique advice and beliefs on how you can make modular cheaper than the already optimistic £50k, have you ever thought about making a blog?

The pilot blogs on the internet do not have pilots suggesting it could be done cheaper than £50k , the cheapest I can think of is pilot_geeza's £56k modular training, which was 10+ years ago. ThePilotGuys creator did it in £130k total integrated. kcpilot did it in £65k modular and the PPL wasnt included since it was fully funded with a scholarship. I looked up AAFC and the cheapest ppl is £5.66k, I read on this forum that was the cheaper end of flight schools in Florida, USA.
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Old 26th Oct 2023, 08:57
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Originally Posted by rudestuff
Did you read any of what I wrote? Even a dual license should not cost any more than £50k. Plenty of schools offer both courses - the only thing you have to do twice is the exams, the ground school and even the flight tests can be done concurrently. It's all about the order of the modules. I can explain it for you. Unfortunately I can't understand it for you.
Yes and with those schools it is now £30k for joint CPL ME/IR. £5k for ATPL theory, £10k PPL, £15k hour building and you're already at £60k without UPRT or MCC, or any extra hours needed along the way.
Add on the rest and you're at £70k to be CPL ME/IR MCC URPT. You then need travel, accommodation and general life costs on top.
This is the reality of flight training now in the UK.
Flight training, especially CPL, is well out of reach of most, no matter how hard they work. You need well off parents or a very well paying job.
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Old 26th Oct 2023, 09:36
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Originally Posted by rudestuff
Did you read any of what I wrote? Even a dual license should not cost any more than £50k. Plenty of schools offer both courses - the only thing you have to do twice is the exams, the ground school and even the flight tests can be done concurrently. It's all about the order of the modules. I can explain it for you. Unfortunately I can't understand it for you.
The order of modules you have is on staplefords website/price breakdown too, its not exactly different. They also have the CPL last.
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Old 26th Oct 2023, 09:37
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Originally Posted by Planner01
Yes and with those schools it is now £30k for joint CPL ME/IR. £5k for ATPL theory
Don't believe everything you see. A CPL is no more than £5k, MEIR about the same and ATPL theory £2k by distance learning.

Ok look.. I'm a naturally sarcastic twa.t so that's how it comes across, but I'm genuiny trying to help:

Try to get away from this mindset of PPL, 100hrs PIC then CPL/IR.

You can absolutely do it that way if you wish, because it works and that is what the flight schools will try to sell you, however there is a better way. And by better I mean cheaper. I see from your repeated assertions that I've got my work cut out trying to steer you in the right direction but I'll try to elaborate:

Lets look at a school which gives you your CPL followed by your MEIR, you will have 200 hours PLUS 15 hours of ME training PLUS 30 hours of sim for the IR. You'll have paid for 245 hours - 215 loggable hours plus 30 sim hours that will cost almost as much as 30 airplane hours but count for very little. As someone who's been there and done it, anything over 5 hours in a sim is a waste of time but a great money maker for the schools.

If you get your IR before your CPL you'll finish with 200 hours in your logbook and save 15 unnecessary airplane hours. You will still have 30 sim hours to pay for.

If you get your IR before your CPL but via the CBIR route you'll finish with 200 hours in your logbook and you will have flown most of that in an airplane THAT YOU NEEDED TO FLY ANYWAY for the hour building, so you save yourself the sim cost. By doing the IR during your hour building, you're really only paying for the instructor.

If you get your IR before your CPL, via the CBIR route but in a single engine airplane THEN convert to MEIR, you finish with 200 hours and you will spend slightly more on test fees but you can now fly as few as 8 ME hours instead of 21 ME hour, saving up to (13 times the price difference between ME and SE)

Essentially by tweaking the order you can get the MEIR almost for free. In principle:
1) Get everything done within 200 hours
2) fly as few simulator hours as possible.
3) fly as few ME hours as possible.

If you still don't believe me, take the school's price list and compare their modular cost to the individual cost of their own courses in optimum order. Most schools really don't want people knowing this.

Last edited by rudestuff; 14th Nov 2023 at 20:27.
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Old 26th Oct 2023, 09:49
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We have just reviewed this for Wings Alliance members because prices have been going up recently.; We make a realistic bottom-end cost to be about £57K from scratch, including APS-MCC, UPRT etc. This involves a fair bit of shopping around and does not include any travel costs to the US/Spain etc. but I think it is achievable. In the past we have had more than a few spend less than £40K to £45K. Possible training costs
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 11:22
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Urgent advice needed!

Hello folks,
Where do I start? Itís seems that I really need an advice!

Recently, I started an integrated self funded programme in Hungary (4 weeks ago).
However, I feel like I made a huge mistake choosing this school.
A few weeks ago I had my first theory lessons in Principle of flight. And in my opinion the choice were clear. I donít want to be in this school. I was very disappointed of the teachers level in English and methods of teaching.
I fulfilled my aerospace engineering degree few years ago, and even though I struggle to digest the whole material and prepare properly for the progress tests (every single week)
The whole rush, teaching atmosphere and poor living conditions make me feel very anxious. And even if my first exam was alright, I feel like Iím losing my passion to perform because of the constant pressure,poorly teaching methods,lack of communication and surrounding.
I feel so miserable every single day and I just canít imagine the next 2 years stuck here.

What should I do ? Shall I change the school/programme (mentored) before to waste extra money?


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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 12:22
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Reasons to leave: An integrated course from a Hungarian ATO has literally all of the disadvantages (cost) with none of the advantages (connections), surely? How much have you given them and what is the refund policy?

Reasons to stay: Hungarian girls are hot.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 12:52
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Originally Posted by rudestuff
Reasons to leave: An integrated course from a Hungarian ATO has literally all of the disadvantages (cost) with none of the advantages (connections), surely? How much have you given them and what is the refund policy?

Reasons to stay: Hungarian girls are hot.
Thank you for your fast response!

I havenít given them anything yet. I have to make a payment up to 120 days after the start date.
The price of the whole program is 65k Ä. The first instalment suppose to be 15500Ä.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 16:03
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@ geryshayk can you give us a bit some detail which school is about? I'm sure lot of potential pilots want to know this... Thanx
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 16:17
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[QUOTE=Hawkers;11544231]@ geryshayk can you give us a bit some detail which school is about? I'm sure lot of potential pilots want to know this... Thanx [/QUOTE

Sure! The school is located in NyŪregyhŠza,Hungry (around 4 hours by train from Budapest) The name is Trener Kft Flight academy or more famous like the ďofficialĒ Wizz Air Pilot Academy.
I know that it might sound very impressive but itís so far from how it sound.
This place isnít worth it the money/time unless you are fully sponsored by Wizz air and you have no other options.
if you are self funded cadet - please avoid at all costs
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 16:31
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geryshayk How much have you paid? What does the contract say about leaving?
As long as you haven't given them much money, it's not the end of the world. You're not far in and could leave with little/ no consequence apart from the financial aspect.

Though it does serve as a warning to others. Why would anyone sign up to spend many 10s of thousands of Euros at a school of which they had no knowledge?
It's quite simple.
Go visit the school. Look at the facilities/ planes. Talk to the instructors/ sales/ receptionist/ anyone and everyone. Try to sit in on a class. Does it look well-run? Are the facilities reasonable? Would you feel comfortable in the planes? Do they have enough planes in good working order? Do the FIs speak English well and sound experienced and competent? Is information on the course easily accessible?
Talk to current students out of earshot of the sales people. Would they recommend the school? What are the main pluses and minuses? Is there anything they wish they knew before starting?
If you have contacts, try to get a personal review from someone at/ a recent graduate of the school.
Thoroughly search Google/ Facebook/ IG for reputation and reviews/ info from recent students (though take things online with a pinch of salt).
Never pay significant sums up front. Always remember you can lose what you've paid (too many ATOs have gone bankrupt so lots have experienced this unfortunately).
Buyer beware!

Edit to say this sounds a bit harsh. I truly wish you well and hope you are able to follow your dreams!
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 16:34
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Appreciate your reply,i hope it help someone to find the right way for training and study, which cost a lot of money. I wish you luck in further steps ,and my opinion is, if you can don't waste money, prepare your self most efficient for study and giving exams . Many schools have the same problem, so don't waste your time ,just study and go for exams.
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Old 25th Nov 2023, 23:12
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Originally Posted by rudestuff
Don't believe everything you see. A CPL is no more than £5k, MEIR about the same and ATPL theory £2k by distance learning.
I've been pondering a career change, the better half already works as CC for Qantas, previously VAA. Generally loves the job & industry. I was initially turned away by the thought of going through these integrated schools and the 100-120k price tag.

Thank you for all the posts in this thread. In an effort to educate myself on Modular, I've been trying to hunt down prices.

Does this sound reasonable?

Before committing anything at all, get a class 1 medical £900 UK only or £1200 EASA+UK.

ATPL Exams Bristol Ground School Remotely while working £3200 + exam fees.

Central Flight Training based in the midlands (somewhat local, very drivable distance), doing PPL (Training+10 PIC) ~£5845 -> 60 Hours building (Min for MEP on their website) to 70hrs total -> MEP (6 hours) £3,985.00 -> MEIR (50 hours) £17,000.00 -> 25 Hours (build 125-150) -> Start CPL(A) 25 hours £8,738.00 -> 25 hours (build 175->200 total) -> UPRT £1,800.00+ APS MCC £4,995 else where. Roughly doing about 120 hours of time building at £142/h for £17,000 Using rough figures total about 60k.

Stapleford's in Essex, Same pattern PPL into ME/CBIR before CPL, theirs comes in at about £46,000, again adding on UPRT+APSMCC for another £7,000, Rough total of £53,000

Also looked at ACS Flight Training up in Perth Scotland, appears slightly more expensive then Central Flight Training. FTEJerez, considerably more expensive at first glance, let alone travel/accom/time off work for Spain etc.

This is my first attempt at pricing this up with no industry knowledge. If you or Alex, or any other experienced folk have suggestions on other training providers, or optimization of the training order, it would be greatly appreciated.

My next research topic would be on the process for moving from completing UPRT/APSMCC into the first job. People seem to avoid self funding a type rating? However this process taking 2yrs or so, putting me at 42, would it possibly help in moving things along a bit faster. There seems to be struggles for people non-type rated to get into work or accepting jobs with never ending delayed starting dates because the airlines TR provider is backed up.
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Old 26th Nov 2023, 07:05
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Originally Posted by Smitty06
Central Flight Training based in the midlands (somewhat local, very drivable distance), doing PPL (Training+10 PIC) ~£5845 -> 60 Hours building (Min for MEP on their website) to 70hrs total -> MEP (6 hours) £3,985.00 -> MEIR (50 hours) £17,000.00 -> 25 Hours (build 125-150) -> Start CPL(A) 25 hours £8,738.00 -> 25 hours (build 175->200 total) -> UPRT £1,800.00+ APS MCC £4,995 else where. Roughly doing about 120 hours of time building at £142/h for £17,000 Using rough figures total about 60k.

Stapleford's in Essex, Same pattern PPL into ME/CBIR before CPL, theirs comes in at about £46,000, again adding on UPRT+APSMCC for another £7,000, Rough total of £53,000
I give up.
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Old 26th Nov 2023, 08:00
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Originally Posted by rudestuff
I give up.
Applogies for not understanding. I think I missed the mark on doing as little ME hours as possible? Also unsure how the conversion between a SE IR -> MEIR or CBIR works? I've seen a few job adds specifically stating you need MEIR.

Guessing then it should have been PPL-> Nigh Rating ->SE IR -> MEP -> Upgrade to MEIR/CBIR (with least ME hours possible) -> CPL?

In terms of hours, am I incorrect in there is a requirment of 150 hours to start a CPL(A) class?, which gives another 25 hours & to get sign off you need 200 hours total PIC?
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Old 26th Nov 2023, 11:32
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Originally Posted by Smitty06
Applogies for not understanding. I think I missed the mark on doing as little ME hours as possible? Also unsure how the conversion between a SE IR -> MEIR or CBIR works? I've seen a few job adds specifically stating you need MEIR.

Guessing then it should have been PPL-> Nigh Rating ->SE IR -> MEP -> Upgrade to MEIR/CBIR (with least ME hours possible) -> CPL?

In terms of hours, am I incorrect in there is a requirment of 150 hours to start a CPL(A) class?, which gives another 25 hours & to get sign off you need 200 hours total PIC?
I've got a little more time on my hands now...

In a nutshell the best way to save money is to do as few Sim and multi hours as possible - because sim hours are generally unnecessary and multi hours are expensive.

The CPL has the highest hour requirement (200) so it makes sense to do that last and finish with 200 hours. Why anyone would get 200 hours then pay another £15k on top of that for 15 MEP hours and 35 Sim hours is beyond me.

10 hours is common to both the CPL and IR, meaning if you get your IR first your CPL is only a 15 hour course.

You can do your CPL in a multi OR you can get your MEP and do your CPL in a single (in any order) you don't need to do both.

The PIC requirements are 50 for IR, 70 for your MEP and 100 for your CPL.

There are about 7 or 8 different ways to get an IR but the cheapest is (one of) the CBIR routes: IRR then CBIR. Its 15 hours dual, 15 hours PIC then either 10 hours dual in a single engine or 15 hours multi.

To get an initial IR in a multi requires 15 hours, to convert an SEIR to MEIR only requires 2. Savings can be from 0-13 hours depending on ability.

An IR can be done partly using Sim hours. Sim hours don't count to your CPL. You'll be amazed how many people pay £150 per hour for 200 hours airplane rental then pay £150 per hour to spend 35 hours simulating what they could have done for free during their hour building (ok, technically free + instructor cost.)

Another way to look at it: Lets say your school offers IRR training for £210 and hour building for £150.
An IRR+CBIR will cost you (210◊15)+(150◊15)+(210◊10) = £6750. That's already pretty cheap but now consider that you were going to pay £6000 to fly those hours anyway - you just got an IR for less than a grand in instructors fees. Compared to the most expensive option of CPL then IR you're effectively writing off training cost against hour building.

Last edited by rudestuff; 26th Nov 2023 at 11:51.
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Old 26th Nov 2023, 19:30
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so after the IRR/CBIR, you hold an Instrument Rating, right? And once you've done the MEP and then the CPL, do you then have to do an MEIR, or is that just an abbreviation for both the MEP and IR ratings that you wouldve already done? Airlines want a MEIR and CPL so just checking. Chees rudestuff.
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Old 26th Nov 2023, 19:41
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rudestuff Thank you for the further explaination. Really appricate you taking the time to expand & clarify it for me.
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Old 27th Nov 2023, 01:31
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Originally Posted by WindyTurtle
so after the IRR/CBIR, you hold an Instrument Rating, right? And once you've done the MEP and then the CPL, do you then have to do an MEIR, or is that just an abbreviation for both the MEP and IR ratings that you wouldve already done? Airlines want a MEIR and CPL so just checking. Chees rudestuff.

From what I gather / I’m doing

Yes the IRR + CBIR = SEIR
MEP is the same as SEP just a class
SEIR - MEIR conversion course, 5hrs min of which 3 can be FNPT.
CPL Single engine


UPRT & APS/MCC (VA is recommended through wings alliance) to finish off

Order is your choice, I aim to leave multi stuff to the end so I’m proficient but it’s entirely up to you

If you want to learn more / help understanding the CAA website -> pilot licenses is a good place to look.

Some schools will say it’s not recommended or it’ll cost you more. Don’t be deterred, on a CV you’ll have more IFR hours, demonstrate greater ability as single pilot ifr is no walk in the park, and you will stand out as you’ll have more to talk about in a interview! At least that is my thinking.

Last edited by CaptSackJarrow; 27th Nov 2023 at 10:06.
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Old 27th Nov 2023, 06:06
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Originally Posted by WindyTurtle
so after the IRR/CBIR, you hold an Instrument Rating, right? And once you've done the MEP and then the CPL, do you then have to do an MEIR, or is that just an abbreviation for both the MEP and IR ratings that you wouldve already done? Airlines want a MEIR and CPL so just checking. Chees rudestuff.
PPL first, CPL last. You can do everything in between in any order you like, but there is an optimum. IRR is 15 hours (it's also called IMC) it's basically an 'IR-light' which allows you to fly IMC , build 15 IFR hours then do a 10 hour course to 'top-up' to a full SEIR (40 hours total) Or a 15 hour course for MEIR (45 hours total) if you prefer. The SEIR to MEIR conversion minimums are 2 hours and 3 Sim, so it's obviously significantly cheaper to get SEIR first. There is also a fully taught version of the CBIR where you do 40/45 hours, and obviously schools will try to sell you the most expensive one.

Your PPL and its' SEP class rating allows you to fly SEP, getting an SEIR allows you to fly it in IMC. You'll need a separate MEP rating to fly MEPs before you can get your MEIR, so its 4 tests. You can do 3 flight tests if you go straight to MEIR without doing SEIR, or if you combine the CPL and MEP and do the MEIR last (the traditional route). Neither of those would make sense.

Also understand that the PPL and CPL are licences, everything else is a rating. If you get your MEP after your PPL then you can do your CPL test in an SEP and your MEP rating will be transferred onto it. To keep your total hours at 200 you need to do the CPL last, since you'll already have done the MEP and MEIR you'll only need to do a 15 hour single engine CPL course.

There are many ways to end up with a CPL and MEIR, but in my opinion PPL, NIGHT, IRR, SECBIR, MEP, MEIR, SECPL is the optimum order if your primary concern is cost. Breakdown is 200 hours, 76 Dual, 100 PIC and 24 hours in your back pocket for going over minimums.

Last edited by rudestuff; 27th Nov 2023 at 11:59.
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