j34allen

Hi Rudestuff.

So I would say I am absolutely in the former camp. My situation is in early 30's, saved enough to cover most costs, have zero dependants (partner or kids), educated to degree level so would hope with hard study and focus I'd be capable of passing ATPL's, and I'm not only available too, but also keen to study abroad so I am in a very flexible position.

I suppose the tricky part is that as i'm fortunate enough to have a number of options i'm finding it quite difficult to decide on the best route and not waste this very privileged opportunity.

I've flown 5 hours in a mix of small aircraft and I know it's something I want to commit to for the long run, but i'm conscious that i'm no spring chicken, so I suppose the most important thing for me is finding the most suitable route to give me the best chance of landing a job asap after graduating. Ideally i'd like NOT to stay in the UK and would be keen to take a job in just about any country/ airline that would have me. Hope that sheds some light on my concerns and personal situation.

cheema12

How is it possible to do in US only with 20k and after what will be the price to convert here?

rudestuff

I literally just told you that. Read 61.129.

As for conversion to EASA: you'll need the medical, 14 exams and (thanks to CBIR) training as required for the IR. You should be able to comfortably convert in about 10 hours. You can work it out based on your local prices.

cheema12

What is it 61.129? Thanks
I opened i thread few days ago, I’d appreciate it if you could help. It’s very hard to start, I don’t have nobody that can give me a suggestion.

Fedko

Hello to everyone. I've been reading this forum for years, and its now time for my first thread

I finally got to the position where I can afford to start my professional pilot training (modular, as I want to keep working on the side), and my anticipated path is a little unusual, reason why I would appreciate your thought about it.

The flight school in my city offers a full ATPL Theory + CPL + IR/SE course, but they do not have a multi-engine aircraft, nor a certified simulator. BUT, they do have a very nice non-certified simulator, that can be used for free as much as desired. Obviously, I would then need to do an IR/ME course in another school, to be able to land a job.

I pretty much already decided to do my ATPL theory + CPL with the local school, but the main purpose of my question is to understand the pros and cons of an IR/SE training that will be done exclusively in the air on a single-engine aircraft + an additional IR/ME course; VERSUS a more traditional IR course, where most of the flying will be done on a certified ME simulator + about 15 hours on a real plane.

First question; would one or the second alternative make me more or less attractive towards a potential employer?

Second question; does anyone have an idea of the time necessary to upgrade from a SE/IR to a ME/IR for a regular student that just completed his SE/IR? Are we only talking of a ME rating + another skill test, or is there something more behind it?
The purpose of this question is for me to try an monetise the cost of the "ME/IR upgrade" and put it into perspective with the traditional training. The SE/IR is cheaper than the ME/IR, but I have no idea where will the ME/IR upgrade will bring to total cost.

If someone wonders, the reason why I'm not going directly for the IR/ME is because the closes flight school having an ME represents an about 5 hours round trip, that I would need to do about 40 times. I'm also ready to chose this alternative, but it would need to have some significant advantages, that I do not see at this point.

I'm looking forward to reading your opinions.

rudestuff

CPL+SEIR Is by far the best option in today's job market. It will cost you less than £30,000 but you'll have broken the back of it (CPL done, ATPLs safe indefinitely etc) and you'll only be 6 weeks away from an MEIR/MCC, which you can get when the market is right. Well done and good luck.

ale.masetti

Hi all,

I am currently considering the modular route and I have a few questions (EASA).
From my understanding the route is: PPL > hour building > ATPL theory > CPL > MER > IR > MCC & airline pilot standard > UPTR

• A pilot I spoke with recommended doing the hour building after the ATPL theory. Is that a requirement, or any specific reason for that? Will that be ok if I do the hour building between the completion of the PPL and the ATPL theory instead?
• Again, about the hour building, does it matter where I do it? Could I for example do 40 hours in Spain, 40 in Portugal 20 in the UK? Or is it recommended I stick to the same country/provider for this too?
• Would it be fair estimate that after the ATPL theory, it would take me an average of 3 months to complete the CPL, ME, IR, APS/MCC and UPTR?
• When building hours, are there any specific requirements? Like night flight time, cross country, cross country lading at a different airport etc?

Would be great if someone knew the answers to those!

Thanks

rudestuff

That is one of many modular 'routes', and also the most expensive!
The CPL requires 200 hours. The IR does not. Which one are you going to do first?
An MEIR requires 15 hours in an MEP, an SEIR to MEIR upgrade requires 5 (some of which can be SIM) which do you think is cheaper, an SEIR test or 10+ hours multi?

To answer your questions specifically:

I would always advise to get the PPL then forget about flying and concentrate on the ATPL exams. Sure, you could hour build at the same time, but there's really no need. It all comes back very quickly. Obviously there's a lot more to it than that: you don't want to spend the summer studying and leave hour building until the winter - especially in the UK. The bottom line is you don't know exactly how long those exams are going to take, so just get through them.

Hours are hours: it doesn't matter where they're flown or the reg of the aircraft. That being said there's a lot of sense in flying as many hours as possible in the area you intend to take your CPL test. It's not much different to the PPL test, but not getting lost definitely helps the pressure off!

3 months is quite reasonable to get everything done flying-wise. Although the weather plays a huge part. Allow 2-3 months in the summer, longer in the winter.

There are requirements for hour building, all laid down in Part FCL, Cap804 is a good reference too. The big one is 100 hours PIC and a commercial XC, but it's always a good idea to log as many columns as you can because you never know what you'll need to show in the future. One day you'll need 100 hours of Night for an ATPL. What if your first job is Day only? It happens. You can log Total, PIC, night, cross country and Instrument all at the same time. Don't waste your hour building just chasing the PIC.

ale.masetti

Hi rudestuff , thanks for your reply. In regards to the first question, I was asking if I can do it before the ATPL theory because I intend to do the PPL and hour building along with my current employment and then stop working to do the rest. Due to the type of work I do, it is very hard to come out and back into employment just like that, so the most I can do along with work the better. So it sound to me that it doesn't really matter if I do the hour building before or after ATPL theory then, as long as it's done, is that right?

rudestuff

Correct, it doesn't really matter when you fly the hours. Given a blank schedule it would probably be better to concentrate on the exams, then fly - simply because you'll have a lot more recent experience when it comes to talking the CPL and IR tests. Broadly speaking, the more hours you have in a short period of time immediately prior to your test, the more comfortable and proficient you would expect to be. But other factors come into play in the real world, like trying to keep a job going!

The best piece of advice I can offer in terms of saving money is this: get a single engine CPL and make it the LAST thing you do. (In an airplane).

Daeln Murphy

Hi all,
Interested in becoming a pilot, like many before me. I have spoken to a couple of schools and they made integrated sound very attractive, however having done my own research I think I could probably do modular full-time and save serious money. The problem being of course the different views about the job market I'm seeing. I would be putting my entire life savings on this plus some help and a loan, so I want to make the right decision. In my head I have it as PPL + night rating in a club, ATPL theory from an ATO with the best value (I've found for 60% the cost of the nearest school's theory programme), IR with a school, potential hour building in the US for condensed time benefit, then either:

A) SE rating on to CPL with an eye to becoming a flight instructor (modest salary but at least it's a career in flying), and once in position financially go for ATPL
B) Full steam ahead on ME class rating/MEIR and on to ATPL with an eye to working in airlines

Obviously the latter is more risky. That's a sticking point. I've read that Boeing are predicting a serious pilot shortage and that many pilots will be retiring over the next 10 years, combined with hiring 200-hour pilots it's a good time to learn. However I have also read that this is not true, many pilots still waiting to get back and that there aren't actually that many jobs. Both schools I have spoken with claim to have a great track record of pilots getting jobs with airlines pretty much out the door, mentored programmes and that.

Although the idea of paying an airline 30k for a TR for the potential of a job isn't enamouring. Frankly, I find it despicable that they do that, which is part of the concern: conditions for pilots getting worse over time to the point it's not worth the investment, no matter how much I want to be a pilot.

I would appreciate a candid, honest and up-to-date assessment - the more cynical posts I've seen had come from 2021. Coming towards summer 22, Covid for most is forgotten and now we're onto the next hamster-wheel that is UKR/RUS (interested to see how people think that will impact the market as well).

Thanks for reading.

Jammysticks

Hi Daeln,
I'm in a very similar position to you, being in Ireland and also just about to start training. My main concerns about the future of this career centre around the worsening employment conditions, job stability, and the increasing slice of the flying pie that is taken up by automation. So far I've concluded, however, that I'll take my chances with this career, as I might well regret it if I don't.

I'm currently weighing up various ways of training, with the ultimate goal of flying for an airline. I'd be very interested in getting in touch to brainstorm some ideas for training, if you'd like that? I have sent you a private message.

rudestuff

There's no right or wrong way, just the one that suits your situation best. The cheapest modular route to a multi engine CPL/IR is to go for a single engine CPL/IR first, so the two options above aren't either/or. It's an easy decision - to for option A then consider your options. I wouldn't recommend flight instruction full time. Maybe as a part-time gig but you can't really make money from it like a 'proper' job. If you're young, free and single and don't need to hold down a job, then I'd still recommend training to CFI in the US then coming home with 1000 hours - assuming you can still get a 2 year visa. With literal interpretation of part 61 you only need 100 hours in an airplane. Its the cheapest option of them all...

Daeln Murphy

Thanks for the insight, rudestuff. Jammysticks I responded to your message but haven't heard back - your inbox may have been full. If you give me a shout I'll give you my email and we can go from there, seems a more efficient way to communicate.

-----------------------------------------------------

Until you have a posting history you don't have access to private messaging and adding urls.

Passing on your email is the way to go for now.

interested123

I am currently completing the modular route and am presently in the hour building phase. I am planning to complete my ATPL theory distance learning through one of the main providers in the U.K.

My initial thoughts were to do my ATPL theory once I reach 50 hours PIC leaving me 50 hours to complete over the course of my ATPL theory course. This would effectively give me a 12-18 months to complete this, which I believe is realistic as I also have a full time job and other commitments.

Does anybody have any advice on this?

HypoxicWaiter

Hello all,

Just like many others in this thread I find myself faced with an important decision! I’m a UK citizen, living in the UK but also hold an Irish passport.

I currently hold a UK issued PPL (2019), with 70 hours PIC, 120 hours total. (300nm XC done to ELLX)

No night rating at this stage.

I’m distance learning the ATPL theory subjects and earlier this week I sat my first 4 Austro Control exams (Gloucester), so the 18 month timer is now ticking!

I am more drawn towards the route suggested by many here, that is the IR, followed by a SECBIR and SECPL for the time being. + night rating.

However, this isn’t really going to be possible in the UK in EASA colours? Is it? (The BIR can’t be exercised in UK airspace as I understand)

So will I be better off sitting the 4 exams again with the UK CAA whilst the knowledge is fresh?

I originally wanted the EASA license for more employment opportunities…..

Cheers!

PedroS

There is a nice article on internet done by Quality Fly about modular vs integrated
qualityfly.com/es/integrated-vs-modular-pilot-training-in-2022

Chris the Robot

Has anyone any idea of the approximate proportion of integrated students currently completing their training using borrowed money? The BoE rate is currently 3% and the most generous mortgages seem to be 5.25%-5.75%, it's forecast that the BoE rate will go to around 4%-5%. I reckon it'd be sensible to assume that the interest on a flight training loan is around 7% in such a scenario, taking into account the lending bank's marging above the BoE rate. I know the media are saying that mortgages may come down due to the effect of futures contracts on bank lending rates etc. but I don't necessarily see this happening. Credit Suisse were recently saying that the BoE is underestimating inflation and implying that the BoE needs to be more hawkish when rate-setting.

Say a student borrows £110k (course plus living expenses) with a two year repayment holiday to allow for course completion and job hunting, at 7% interest that comes out at £125939 to repay at the end of the two years.

Historically, I believe flight training loans were repaid over a period of around 7 years from the end of the repayment holiday, assuming this is the case, that would leave monthly repyaments of £1901 and a total amount to repay of £159664. If we assume that a single person would need £1500/month to live, giving the current inflation etc. post-training, that would require a first job with a salary of just over £55k/year, or closer to £60k/year if they want to pay into a pension.

To keep repayments below £1000/month, the repayment period would theoretically need to be around 20 years, with a total repayment amount of £234337. In reality, a cadet would likely have accrued enough salary to be able to make overpayments and reduce the repayable amount and repayment term by a fair bit and of course there's factors like inflation which could reduce the debt in real terms etc.

In my view, these sort of numbers pretty much end any case for integrated training unless one can afford the entire cost of the course without getting into debt. To what extent is the whole integrated/MPL side of training dependent on cheap money? Could the economic situation make it pretty much unviable for flying schools to offer whitetail integrated programmes and for airlines to expect their cadets to fully fund the training bill?

Hawkers

Why don't you try to take loan and finish the ATPL course in EU EASA country ,for example in Hungary where the flying cost is still affordable and you obtain CPL/ATPL "frozen'' for about 45.000 Euro? The living cost is lower than in UK but ,taking the huge loan you can pay training+ living cost till you finish whole process in cca 2 years... Or,to do ICAO license in South Africa and many other places, cause of low flying fees and convert the license (if you want to convert to EASA) ? The only thing you will have to get enough loan for living cost and training for 2 years (with that loan you will pay monthly rate) but you're on "quick " for job after completed training... Just a thought...

rudestuff

If you've got money to burn - go integrated. Put your Patek on and drive your Lambo to school etc...

But if you need to save it or borrow it - go modular. The idea of someone paying £200k over 20 years for a licence that can be done for £40k is insane.