Jibriltz

Ok, I am treading carefully with the old debates and I'll make this fast:

Nearly got PPL, I want to be in Spain preferably.
There are two schools I found: GAir Madrid (formerly Gestair) and FTE Jerez.

If you haven't heard of Gestair, I don't blame you. However their modular course is around the £30k mark (inc. ATPL theory, CPL, IR, Multi-Crew, Multi Engine). Not bad for the 9th best in Europe and 4th in Spain.

Jerez you may well have heard of. Huge campus and bill to match. I can't quite work out the modular price, they seem to like hiding individual course prices (God forbid someone get a calculator and ask where all that extra money for integrated courses goes...). But they do feed airlines, have that crucial connection to them and they seem to have a good careers service.

1.) Could I get a bunch of qualifications from Gestair (maybe my ATPL theory) and then do some at Jerez? And if so, would I still get that sparkle on my CV (so to speak) of having studied at Jerez, or does that only come with their integrated course?

2.) Is the type-rating that much of a holy Grail for airlines to employ you? Once I have my PPL, ATPL theory, Multi-Crew, Multi-Engine, CPL, Instrument Rating, night rating, around 200 or so hours and that darned type rating - is it interview city from then on?

I would appreciate any advice or commiserations from anyone else suffering with a similar dilemma. Not integrated vs modular but which path to go with a modular.

mad_jock

It doesn't matter which way you trained its a slog to get a job post qualification unless you are on a mentored cadetship.

Going to one of the big schools to get a name doesn't do anything for your CV.

Over 50% of qualified pilots never get to earn a cent with their license.

Buying a type rating with out job at the end of it will do nothing for your chances. In fact it closes more doors than it opens.

Alex Whittingham

I'm trying to put together a table for a comparison of the minimum hours required on both the Integrated and Modular routes to achieve a CPL MEP IR with ATPL theory. I am finding that the answer depends on, for instance, the requirements to start the CPL course on the modular route which seem to have changed recently and I think I am at risk of missing some of the points of fine detail that Flight Instructors would know and I do not. Has anyone done this exercise recently and would be prepared to share it? If so please email me at [email protected]

mad_jock

It due to the requirement now to have 200 hours built before sitting the CPL skills test.

Before people used to do cpl sit the test do the IR and then apply for the whole lot when they had 200 hours.

It basically makes it more efficient to do the twin IR first then get your hours up to 185 then do a 15 hour CPL.

The amount of hours hasn't really changed apart from adding the test time on top of the 200 hours its just the order you do things in has changed.

Some schools are not embracing doing the IR first and want to keep the old order of things so want the students with 175 hours and then they do the 25 hour single engine CPL then MEP and then IR.

So they come out with about 223 hours if the IR is done on a FNPT II.

Looking at CV's the 223hours is quite common.

Alex Whittingham

Thanks Jock, could you or anyone else help me out with the hours to follow this path, please, on minimums, because the next task is to attach some prices to it..

PPL 45 hours (including 5 sim)
hours build ?
MEP ?
IR ?

to get to 185 hrs (including how many sim, assuming FNPTII available?)

then 15 hour CPL course
then test ... one hour?

Alex Whittingham

....and for the CPL/IR integrated course, it seems to be a minimum of 180 hours with up to 40 of them in the sim. Can anyone who does integrated courses please confirm that?

mad_jock

you need to go to the relevant section in the CAP.

There are multiple options for each thing depending what you already hold.

You can combine the CPL with a MEP if you like as well.

The PPL is the only set thing at 45 hours no sim.

6 Hours is the normal MEP

And night is 5 Hours.

CPL 15 or 25 hours depending if you have IR. And another 3 hours on top if it includes MEP 5 hours can be in the sim I think.

I think they have played with the hours in the IR again since my day. We used to be able to log everything on the course towards it. But now they have changed it so that you can only log hours under the hood. So if you have 20 mins taxi on a 2 hour flight you can only log 1:40 towards the required course hours.

mad_jock

not really, plenty of instructor jobs going as people have moved on.

Its just modular slip into jobs and nobody hears about them.

They usually get jobs by word of mouth as well and networking.

But the whole market is hugely over supplied.

mad_jock

Well I know of 2 just gone to BMIR modular.

But the big schools would like you to think that what you have said is true.

PID

After reading countless threats on here about MPL, CTC, OAA, FTE, etc and attending some open days! My conclusion has been to do modular route instead.

Not only is much MUCH cheaper, modular seems to be more fun, less pressure (as you are not being constantly accessed!) etc.

I'm also aware that my chances of employment are lower since ATO schools have partner airlines (consider OAA that just signed a contract with Air Algerie to train 200 cadets!).

I do intend in becoming an airline pilot as quickly as possible, but I also want to do it wisely and not having a 80+ grand loan on my back!

I'm considering in joining Stapleford flight centre to do my whole modular training, which will begin next year in January!

So my questions are:

Has anyone who did modular at stapleford got a job within a year?
How is stapleford like? What kind of advice, based on experience could you give?

And for modular fATPL cadets, how long you been looking for your first airline job?

Thanks!

pilotchute

PID,

Well done for researching and deciding not to go for one of the big schools. Your bank account will love you. I don't know much about schools but you may want to rethink your employment time frame. Some people wait much longer than a year to crack that first job. For many the first job isn't in an airline. You could get lucky and go straight to a jet but you need to think about other options too. You may find yourself instructing or flying air taxi. You may get the opportunity to work in ops at an airline.

It's a short route for some but for most it will take a lot of dedication and persistence. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

Blantoon

If you aren't comfortable being constantly assessed then an airline career is most certainly not for you.

Besides, you should be grabbing any possibility to be assessed with both hands. It gives you the chance to set yourself from the countless other wannabes. Have something to put on your CV/say in an interview.

mad_jock

utter Blantoon.


I was mod and never scored less than B+

And these days I don't get graded which I think is a bad thing.

berber3

PID,

I am also in the same position as you. I was convinced that integrated was the way, to the point I also went and visited different schools CTC,FTE,OAA,AFTA but pilotchute is completely correct. "Your bank account will love you" couldn't be more clearer!!. I highly suggest to anyone looking to make a decision on flight training to really do your homework. Is an integrated course right for you? have you actually looked at a modular course? can you meet and keep up with the repayments of undertaking such a large loan? as Pilotchute mentioned and I am sure many others would agree "Some people wait much longer than a year to crack that first job. For many the first job isn't in an airline" (this is not an attack on anyone who choose to do either by the way. I want to make that very clear! I feel that it is personal choice based one your own circumstances).

My reasons for choosing the modular route and this and this is completely my own personal situation, maybe Integrated course is for you,

I was doing my research on schools and was putting things together to take down to the bank to apply for a loan (worked hard and saved my A** off by the way) for an integrated course and when you actually sit down and crunch the numbers and right things down in front of you on paper it actually scared me. Taking into consideration the course itself, then Accommodation which may or may not be included in your course, and then living expenses for 14-18 months it really adds up at least €90-100,000 and that's before the likes of RYR asking you to pay for type rating etc. which is a whole other topic in itself.

This made me go away and rethink my whole decision which was not right for me personally."Not only is much MUCH cheaper, modular seems to be more fun, less pressure" I would certainly agree with this and it's also Less pressure from the Bank asking for their money back!! there are other options out there. I found a school called Bartolini Air in Poland which is a EASA approved FTO so your licence will be issued by your local CAA. I don't want to turn this into a which school is better topic but I heard good things about them and I am going to visit on Thursday to see first hand myself. Keep your options open.

Blantoon

Exactly what about what I said is "utter "?

If you fly for an airline, are you not assessed in the sim every six months? You don't have line checks etc like the rest of us?

I simply advised PID that if he's shying away from the pressure of assessment then being assessed multiple times a year for the rest of his career might not float his boat. I stand by what I said.

I particularly don't know why you're telling me that you were a mod and got B+ (whatever that means). Congrats? I've not said anything pro or anti modular.

Jugs08

Hi guys,

Havnt been on for a while but I went modularly in 2011-2012 and now have a job since 2013. It's with a large airline you all know.

Yes it's a good job compared to sitting in an office; but in the winter I only made £900 after expenses which is pretty Much a waste of time. My life is full of uncertainty
Regarding where I will work from and future careers prospects do not help this. A lot of time is spent alone in hotel rooms and especially winter; you are treated like a criminal at security and the majority of flights are not holiday destinations.

There is no money in most aviation jobs and little glamour left. The public will think it's cool but the reality is a lot different.

Danny.

I have just read this entire thread from the very beginning and now I can safely say it has been 7 hours well spent as it has cleared my mind. The last post from Jugs08 seems to be the only true validation of the main point made, based upon the facts which he has to hand, paying your loan off will be incredible hard. Jugs08 offered to me a keen insight in to the aviation industry and it would also be good to hear the posters' view during the summer months so that we may have an all round opinion of what they feel the industry is like- I am sure this has been covered many a time in the terms and endearment section though. I do understand that some of the more prominent posters have a good sound industry knowledge/ job behind them so are no doubts best placed to offer advice.

It became obvious pretty quickly that there is no real data available upon which an educated decision can be made and I have no reason to believe that any form of data like this will ever be made available except from those that have a vested interest in the matter. And as we all know data can be manipulated to concur with your own ideals.

One thing which I think everyone needs to be aware of flying for a living is expensive, not just in a financial respect but also with respect to standard of life e.g. Partners, lack of a solid work pattern and constant fear that your licence may be revoked at any point due to competency and medical based issues. Even with all those factors in mind I am not dissuaded.

I do have a point of view on this matter which I wish to share! I do not really think it matters which route you choose to take. Hard work lies ahead for anyone choosing to be a professional pilot. If you can offer far more than just flight time to a company it will put you in a better stead. I have my own personal view as what the extra skills should be and the methods about which to go in order to attain them.

I recently completed an application for a airline sponsored training and the knowledge I took away from that was invaluable. I learnt I needed to not only be able to fly well and have first time passes on exams but that I also need to be a rounded individual. I need to develop a sound understanding of the industry, the history , current developments and trends and remain in touch with the current economic climate. (Things which all students should be doing anyway) I need to be able to prove leadership skills and have multiple examples to call upon if asked to go to interview for a position. I need to offer external skills, not just transferable ones but ones which will save the airline time and money. These will not only benefit others but will aid in my own development and help me change my life for the better. The application process left me feeling that I personally am not ready to join the industry(Yet) a fact which seemed to only further fuel my desire to achieve success.
The questions this evoked for me all boiled down to this... If you wish to apply you need to ask yourself one important question, What is it that you do to differentiate yourself from all other potential candidates? Furthermore how can you prove it? When and only when you can provide a substantial answer to this are you ready.

Anyway I have digressed, the original question is modular vs integrated.

I am only going to list the benefits as I have seen them as common sense dictates that the drawbacks will simply be the converse. No two could have the same benefit really. I think it would be of great help if I have missed any that other people contribute their ideas to this and who knows this may lead to a definitive guide later on down the line.

So down to it then
Modular-
1) Relatively cheap and you will not feel you are, or be accused of by strangers, propping up a training industry and severely lining shareholders pockets
2) Time is on your side, training can be matched to current industry requirements and allow you in your non flying time to move around creating your own industry contacts
3) You will meet a lot of people and have a lot of fun flying around wherever it is you choose to train. The training company (ATO?) near me offer fun days and groups will go out in an aeroplane together all over the place, this is extracurricular and I am not sure whether you gain PIC time or not from this.
4) You will get the same licence as you will if you go down the integrated route, you will also gain your ppl which you don't if you choose the MPL route!
5) Standard of living and family life, friends you already could possibly be maintained, the support you already have all around you will never fade and you will be constantly reminded as to why you are doing this- to better yourself and your families standard of living (unless you are John Travolta and just doing this purely for the passion of aviation)

Integrated-
1) Meet lots of people with a similar interest to you and be part of a team whilst training from day one, lots of help and support available from peers if you are struggling
2) Well structured training, including ground school, you will have a good idea (I say good idea as all the schools I have visited state that the time is a guideline and is weather/demand for cadets dependent) of when to expect your training to be completed. There will be no financial aspect to hinder your training process.
3) You will make a lot of friends, which won't initially help you in the industry as all of them will taking entry jobs and have no authority but may be further down the line they could help with introductions etc.
4) Your training provider must show a further interest in you once your training is complete in order to maintain their placements statistics. This could be seen as extremely beneficial as not only will you gain experience of working in the industry but you would be foolish not to use this time to generate contacts and further knowledge.

If, and only if, you have a sound financial backing, or cash, I would be more tempted towards the integrated/mpl route purely because I would hate to have the possible regret that I hadn't got the job I wanted because I hadn't ticked the correct box on an application form due to my training history.

One final point I would like to interject, something which I feel no-one else has looked at the entire training situation from, and one which I fear may lead to a lot of nay saying (may be even a lynch mob) and disgust but....
Would it not be better to view the whole training process as the basis for an apprenticeship? I have served a full apprenticeship in a trade and learnt a lot from it. I spent the first 3 years of my working career earning £100 per week (2004 -2007, to give some idea of the value of this) which I could barely pay for my board, a car, insurance mobile phone bill etc with. After 3 years I earned £200 per week, enough to live on but not to save properly, it was only after being with the same company for 5 years that pay improved to the point at which I could afford to save for my own house. It took hard work and a long time to be able to get a decent standard of living.
I am the first to admit that I am looking at this from a "naive" outsider point of view and willing to accept that it is thinking like this that has probably destroyed what once was an incredibly rewarding career. I do not want anyone to even think that I am suggesting that this situation is great and that it is brilliant that the companies are willing to offer out this olive branch like some sort of ceremonial Gods. I am merely offering food for thought on a less than ideal situation.

I think that if the industry was looked at like this it may start to make more sense and that the level of remuneration should indeed lie with capability to perform and merit? How many people do we all know that get a degree and start at the top pay scale? Not many. Most I know have £30-50,000 worth of debt and are working a job in an office selling things or even worse on a daily basis completing a mundane task which they A had no desire to do in the first place and B have grown to despise a fate which I hope none of us ever have to face

One thing I would like to add is that I thoroughly enjoy reading the posts from "Ghengis the Engineer". They seem to be impartial, have a true understanding for the quest for knowledge and promote the need for people to better themselves. I wish you all the luck in the world for your desire to become a professor and it is my sincerest hope that you make it.

I would also add I am not a pilot,I am a wannabee- a term which I have grown to dislike greatly as it seems to spurn a certain sort of prejudice and disdain. I am not 18 and fresh out of school either so I have a little bit of life experience behind what I say. All the opinions and ideas I have put forward are based on my own research and ARE NOT to be taken as fact. As everyone has said research yourself, generate your own ideas and follow your own path Success is measured only by yourself, if your only idea of success is to fly for a regional airline then that is your yardstick do not believe that others have failed because they do not measure up to it and they choose not to be blindly duped by false promises of glamour but instead to fly for fun and experience in the far reaches of the world

Scyther

Danny... I just shed a tear... that was beautiful!

jimmo1224

Read this thread from start to finish and just wanted to say thankyou! Invaluable advice (ok, quite a bit of opinion too!) but a completely educating read - this is what makes PPRUNE so valuable.

TrojanCat

I've read the entire thread.
Several questions and comments, especially for Bealzebub:

1. When you talk about tagged cadet programs, are those programs aimed at fATPL holders and include the type rating training alone? are they aimed at PPL holders and include CPL? Ab initio candidates for the entire training start to finish?

2. you say, and I tend to agree, that integrated programs in general and particularly tagged ones can be more appealing to large employers since they have better information about the candidate record and training process.
But what about a person who takes modular courses at the same school, in a short time frame? Their training process was completed in a single school, and if that school has good reputation, do you still suppose he less favorable for employment by a first tier airline, than a fellow 250h (non-tagged) integrated course graduate?

3. This forum, and particularly this thread, is very UK-centric.
I see only OAA and CTC mentioned, and only BA, Ryanair, Easyjet and the like.
But what about other EU airlines? Other schools?
I personally know a person who graduated a tagged integrated program in Finland with 250h, and was put on the waiting list to Finnair for over a year (all the while working as an Instructor). At some Finnair had job cuts so in desperation he applied to Lufthansa and got a position on the first try, finished an AB320 type few months ago and making VERY nice living (+4500 euros a months brutto). I know (through a friend) of another Finn who did the same and now flies for Emirates, also within months of graduating, according to this forum, they are the lucky few, but they are not so few, I started to look and there are quite many people who found a job at an airline with low amount of hours, if they looked abroad, not only domestically.
Why is everyone here so focused on British/Irish airlines? Why aren't you looking abroad?

4. To Mad Jock (and others): The main argument against integrated training is the cost.
Does anything change if I live in a country where I'm able to get a zero interest study loan secured by the government for the entire sum needed, and can only get it for an integrated 0-ATPL program (as modular courses for PPL are seen more as a hobby for the rich)? Does anything change if I'm anyway going to do the training abroad due to bad Nordic weather with government backed loan, so I wouldn't be able to work simultaneously anyway, and won't have to? Does anything change if I'm soon 32 and cannot afford to waste any time on researching, comparing, managing paper work, travelling and think it will be faster and easier if someone does it all for me, so I can focus on the training better?

5. The thread started in 2010, with last message by a veteran (as far as I can tell) in 2013. Is the situation still as bad now, mid 2015? Is it still a huge risk to start training now, soon 32, if I wish to be a pilot in an airline like Lufthansa? I'm not talking about the situation in UK but globally, wherever an FAA/EASA license allows me to work. If I'm single and have nothing to keep me in my home country, don't I have way more options?

I'm from Finland, 31, considering leaving my PhD and academic career and start training in EFT, not sure whether in integrated (120K USD) or modular (about 75K USD), for the reasons mentioned in #4.

Thanks for your opinion!