Modular V Integrated (Merged) - Look here before starting a new thread!
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Grotbag -
a) If you can afford integrated is it worth the extra money?
It depends who you ask. The answer from anybody who took the modular route is usually a resounding 'no'. I opted for integrated - so I honestly hope it is worth the money. I'm not going to say 'yes' because anything can happen, but I did my research before commencing my training over a year ago and I still believe now that my chances of employment with an airline are much higher than they would have been had I opted for modular. I've seen CTC's hold pool completely empty a few months ago, so hopefully by the next seasonal recruitment drive there won't be a long wait between finishing my training and getting into that right hand seat.
b) If you chose modular, could you fit training around seasonal or part time overseas work?
Yes. You can do pretty much whatever you want.
c) If you studied full time for a modular course instead of integrated what are the differences aside from one's residential?
You save a lot of money by doing a modular course. Other significant differences include your flying school's connection with airlines, and ultimately your employment prospects. Spend £50k on modular and attempt to make the money back with difficulty, or spend £100k on integrated with (in my opinion) a much better chance of clawing your money back in the short - medium term. You need to consider whether the extra £50k is worth a better chance of employment at the end of your training.
d) How much of a benefit is it to have a few years life experience and responsibility when applying for your first position in the industry?
I am mid-twenties at the moment - having had study and work experience (some relating to the industry) definitely helped me. The only other way it will really benefit me is that I can probably return to a previous employer if I can't find an airline job before I have to start paying the bills again. The selection for CTC involves an interview, so it is unlikely that I will have to sit an airline interview before placement with an airline.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do!
a) If you can afford integrated is it worth the extra money?
It depends who you ask. The answer from anybody who took the modular route is usually a resounding 'no'. I opted for integrated - so I honestly hope it is worth the money. I'm not going to say 'yes' because anything can happen, but I did my research before commencing my training over a year ago and I still believe now that my chances of employment with an airline are much higher than they would have been had I opted for modular. I've seen CTC's hold pool completely empty a few months ago, so hopefully by the next seasonal recruitment drive there won't be a long wait between finishing my training and getting into that right hand seat.
b) If you chose modular, could you fit training around seasonal or part time overseas work?
Yes. You can do pretty much whatever you want.
c) If you studied full time for a modular course instead of integrated what are the differences aside from one's residential?
You save a lot of money by doing a modular course. Other significant differences include your flying school's connection with airlines, and ultimately your employment prospects. Spend £50k on modular and attempt to make the money back with difficulty, or spend £100k on integrated with (in my opinion) a much better chance of clawing your money back in the short - medium term. You need to consider whether the extra £50k is worth a better chance of employment at the end of your training.
d) How much of a benefit is it to have a few years life experience and responsibility when applying for your first position in the industry?
I am mid-twenties at the moment - having had study and work experience (some relating to the industry) definitely helped me. The only other way it will really benefit me is that I can probably return to a previous employer if I can't find an airline job before I have to start paying the bills again. The selection for CTC involves an interview, so it is unlikely that I will have to sit an airline interview before placement with an airline.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do!
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Hi guys
I was wondering whether anybody had considered doing their pilot training as a complete career change much later on? I do understand there is a whole spectrum of "what age is ideal" arguments.
I've only just started my A levels, so I suppose you could say time is on my side. I've decided I want to go to university, obviously to get a degree but also for the experience , friendships etc. I dont want to do the modular route because truth be told I don't see many opportunites afterwards. Going straight into integrated is out of the question because in doing so it would be very selfish on my part, as it wouldn't allow my 2 younger brothers the same chance at whatever they wanted to do.
Im probably being rather naive here I appreciate that, but how realistic would it be if I got a good career behind me, doing odd bits of flying, paying off debts and saving up cash, eventually to try and get on an integrated course? If I have a family by that point then most likely flying will be a hobby. I'm happy either way to be honest.
Any constructive advice and opinions would be appreciated. Go easy- it's my first post.
I was wondering whether anybody had considered doing their pilot training as a complete career change much later on? I do understand there is a whole spectrum of "what age is ideal" arguments.
I've only just started my A levels, so I suppose you could say time is on my side. I've decided I want to go to university, obviously to get a degree but also for the experience , friendships etc. I dont want to do the modular route because truth be told I don't see many opportunites afterwards. Going straight into integrated is out of the question because in doing so it would be very selfish on my part, as it wouldn't allow my 2 younger brothers the same chance at whatever they wanted to do.
Im probably being rather naive here I appreciate that, but how realistic would it be if I got a good career behind me, doing odd bits of flying, paying off debts and saving up cash, eventually to try and get on an integrated course? If I have a family by that point then most likely flying will be a hobby. I'm happy either way to be honest.
Any constructive advice and opinions would be appreciated. Go easy- it's my first post.
TML,
Sounds like a good idea. Nice to see you showing consideration for your two brothers.
I think you seem to have a good plan in place. No one knows, or should I say, no one wants to face up to the fact that we aren't through the hard times when it comes to the economy. The best place you can be is at uni studying something, making friends and all that lovely stuff.
I think your plan is realistic, it has a play it safe feel to it which I like. At the moment there aren't that many opportunities for modular guys but who knows what the market will be like when you've finished uni, modular might be a bit more desirable then. If not, go integrated.
Sounds like a good idea. Nice to see you showing consideration for your two brothers.
I think you seem to have a good plan in place. No one knows, or should I say, no one wants to face up to the fact that we aren't through the hard times when it comes to the economy. The best place you can be is at uni studying something, making friends and all that lovely stuff.
I think your plan is realistic, it has a play it safe feel to it which I like. At the moment there aren't that many opportunities for modular guys but who knows what the market will be like when you've finished uni, modular might be a bit more desirable then. If not, go integrated.
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@ TheMellowLife
Take this from a 26 year old guy who is only just starting out on his flying training (that's me, by the way!); do not worry about time. It is not essential to be in the right hand seat by 25 or you will have missed your chance.
Airlines today can pick and choose whoever they want, and by passing the aptitude tests and having good GCSE's, A-levels and a degree will simply put you in a bracked with a thousand other people. What will set you apart? Why should they pick you?
My advice would be to go to Uni (for me it was a great experience) but make sure you do a proper course i.e. not David Beckham studies or whatever it is nowadays.
In addition, join the University Air Squadron (UAS) as you can often get flying through that, similar to the Air Cadets. It will also set you apart from other people, and you may even like it so much that you join the regular RAF for a term and then come to airlines at a later date.
Either way, nobody knows what the airline industry will be like next year, let alone in three or five years, so just try to get yourself into a position to take advantage of any upturn in fortunes that may arise. And do your utmost to not rely on tens of thousands of punds of debt before you start!
Though that is just my opinion of course...!!
Take this from a 26 year old guy who is only just starting out on his flying training (that's me, by the way!); do not worry about time. It is not essential to be in the right hand seat by 25 or you will have missed your chance.
Airlines today can pick and choose whoever they want, and by passing the aptitude tests and having good GCSE's, A-levels and a degree will simply put you in a bracked with a thousand other people. What will set you apart? Why should they pick you?
My advice would be to go to Uni (for me it was a great experience) but make sure you do a proper course i.e. not David Beckham studies or whatever it is nowadays.
In addition, join the University Air Squadron (UAS) as you can often get flying through that, similar to the Air Cadets. It will also set you apart from other people, and you may even like it so much that you join the regular RAF for a term and then come to airlines at a later date.
Either way, nobody knows what the airline industry will be like next year, let alone in three or five years, so just try to get yourself into a position to take advantage of any upturn in fortunes that may arise. And do your utmost to not rely on tens of thousands of punds of debt before you start!
Though that is just my opinion of course...!!
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I am indeed, but essentially for two main reasons;
1) I am 26 and have a decent, reasonably well paid job outside of aviation so it makes sense for me to learn modular over 3-4 years fitting around my current work, enabling me to keep any loan I eventually need to an absolute minimum.
It also means that, once I have all my licences, I am not stressing if it takes a year or two to find an airline placement.
2) Even if I wanted to, I don't have access to a £90k+ loan anyway, so integrated is not an option!
I think it depends entirely on your personal situation, and one man's horse is not necessarily another man's.
If you have access to the kind of funding required for an integrated course then I would certainly consider it, but do so very carefully and consider all avenues.
If it were me, I would say the best way is to try and get on the BA FPP, easyJet, FlyBe, Monarch or Qatar schemes that are run through CTC, Oxford and FTE seeing as they give the closest thing to a guaranteed job post-qualification without actually offering any guarantees. If I couldn't get on to one of those I would be quite nervous about having a £90k debt, no guaranteed job and the possibility of £30k more for a type rating.
But again, that's just me!
1) I am 26 and have a decent, reasonably well paid job outside of aviation so it makes sense for me to learn modular over 3-4 years fitting around my current work, enabling me to keep any loan I eventually need to an absolute minimum.
It also means that, once I have all my licences, I am not stressing if it takes a year or two to find an airline placement.
2) Even if I wanted to, I don't have access to a £90k+ loan anyway, so integrated is not an option!
I think it depends entirely on your personal situation, and one man's horse is not necessarily another man's.
If you have access to the kind of funding required for an integrated course then I would certainly consider it, but do so very carefully and consider all avenues.
If it were me, I would say the best way is to try and get on the BA FPP, easyJet, FlyBe, Monarch or Qatar schemes that are run through CTC, Oxford and FTE seeing as they give the closest thing to a guaranteed job post-qualification without actually offering any guarantees. If I couldn't get on to one of those I would be quite nervous about having a £90k debt, no guaranteed job and the possibility of £30k more for a type rating.
But again, that's just me!
!
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modular route?
Im looking into taking the modular with Oxford and worked it out to be around £40k excluding my PPL and hour building which is estimated to be around another £14 - £15k, this course with oxford includes; ATPL (A) theory, MEP, IR , CPL, and JOC if needed. do you guys think this is a good choice or not? i get confused by it all and could need some help and any suggestions with any other providers etc? thanks guys
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As a long-term prune reader I've noticed that these discussions can be very one-sided. It's time to post and show a different perspective. Leenffc, don't get duped into going modular. Lots of people on here will try and brainwash you into making the wrong decision because they decided to try and do things on the cheap. Most of them are regretting their decision and simply want to bring you down with them.
I remember being in your situation, people tried to put me off the integrated route but I did my research and realised that you get what you pay for. At the end of the day you're investing in your future so why not give yourself the best chance? If you (or your parents) can afford it then you should stump up the funds, pay for the best training, buy a decent jet rating and get ahead of the game. You can get all concerned about morality but if you don't do it someone else will, that's how things work in the modern world.
I went to Oxford, brought a 738 rating and two years down the line I'm ready for Emirates. If you want to succeed don't cut corners, good luck.
I remember being in your situation, people tried to put me off the integrated route but I did my research and realised that you get what you pay for. At the end of the day you're investing in your future so why not give yourself the best chance? If you (or your parents) can afford it then you should stump up the funds, pay for the best training, buy a decent jet rating and get ahead of the game. You can get all concerned about morality but if you don't do it someone else will, that's how things work in the modern world.
I went to Oxford, brought a 738 rating and two years down the line I'm ready for Emirates. If you want to succeed don't cut corners, good luck.
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@Jetlad;
I find the tone of that post a bit offensive if Im honest. Not sure you can be judging everyone by the same yardstick?!
Of all that you said, they key sentence was "If you (or your parents) can afford it then you should stump up the funds, pay for the best training"
Which essentially sums up your own privileged position. Unfortunately, not all of us have access to £90k and so the modular route is the only option. It is not that we regret not going integrated, as most of us on this post (myself included) are only just starting out on our journey, we are simply trying to help out others at a similar stage.
Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses of course, but try not to come across as quite such an arrogant arse next time you give it!
I find the tone of that post a bit offensive if Im honest. Not sure you can be judging everyone by the same yardstick?!
Of all that you said, they key sentence was "If you (or your parents) can afford it then you should stump up the funds, pay for the best training"
Which essentially sums up your own privileged position. Unfortunately, not all of us have access to £90k and so the modular route is the only option. It is not that we regret not going integrated, as most of us on this post (myself included) are only just starting out on our journey, we are simply trying to help out others at a similar stage.
Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses of course, but try not to come across as quite such an arrogant arse next time you give it!
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in all fairness, Jetlad does raise a point, if that money is at ones disposal then why not use it? No use flaming someone for having money. Though, that dosent mean integrated is the only route! 
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You might be ready for EK but thats no garrantee that you will get it.
Also thats cost 150k at least including living expenses proberly more likely 175k. Call it over 200k
You will be a Captain before that gets payed off. And lord only knows what your going to do if you loose your medical or get payed off when the deliverys stop to make room for the new cheap cadets.
Where as you can be modular and do exactly the same route for 60k. Including selling your soul to the devil.
Also thats cost 150k at least including living expenses proberly more likely 175k. Call it over 200k
You will be a Captain before that gets payed off. And lord only knows what your going to do if you loose your medical or get payed off when the deliverys stop to make room for the new cheap cadets.
Where as you can be modular and do exactly the same route for 60k. Including selling your soul to the devil.
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I don't disagree that, if you have the money, then you should consider integrated...I certainly would!
My issue was more that the accusation seemed to be that those of us who went modular wished we hadn't, which is just not true in many cases.
My issue was more that the accusation seemed to be that those of us who went modular wished we hadn't, which is just not true in many cases.
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I can only base my views on personal experience and the experiences of those around me. Obviously people come through the modular route and end up where they want to be and I sincerely hope that those of you who've started training this way are successful.
Unfortunately I know too many people who have started their training under the illusion that they can get into the right hand seat of a shiny jet by taking the cheapest route. I don't care what you say, airlines do look for quality and continuity in training and unfortunately that rarely comes cheap. I'm not in a privileged position by any means, I mentioned the point about parents money because a lot of people do have the backing of their family and if you have this option then I think you should use it.
Obviously you may be happy to get any job flying, I wanted to get a return on my investment and I felt that the route I took provided me with the best chance in this highly competitive industry. I didn't want to fly some gaffer taped Jetstream around Eastern Europe because I knew it wouldn't provide me with the lifestyle I wanted. At the end of the day whether it be 60k or 100k we are still talking about a serious amount of cash and I still maintain that if you have it and are prepared to work hard then don't be afraid to use it.
Unfortunately I know too many people who have started their training under the illusion that they can get into the right hand seat of a shiny jet by taking the cheapest route. I don't care what you say, airlines do look for quality and continuity in training and unfortunately that rarely comes cheap. I'm not in a privileged position by any means, I mentioned the point about parents money because a lot of people do have the backing of their family and if you have this option then I think you should use it.
Obviously you may be happy to get any job flying, I wanted to get a return on my investment and I felt that the route I took provided me with the best chance in this highly competitive industry. I didn't want to fly some gaffer taped Jetstream around Eastern Europe because I knew it wouldn't provide me with the lifestyle I wanted. At the end of the day whether it be 60k or 100k we are still talking about a serious amount of cash and I still maintain that if you have it and are prepared to work hard then don't be afraid to use it.
Last edited by Jetlad; 3rd Jul 2012 at 14:54.
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It doesn't matter if it worked for Jetlad or not, this is a general discussion.
I believe that quality in training is very important not only for the obvious safety reasons but for your career, especially during your first steps. When I was looking at different schools (in Greece, where I live) to do my training most schools pushed for the modular route and I was convinced that this was the right move. However, when I started talking with graduates and current students 8 out 10 told me that integrated was the right choice, provided you have the money to complete the training. When I started my ATPL Integrated course with a school in Greece (the only one which advised me to do the integrated btw) I understood why most graduates advised me to do that. The integrated is a complete course and the school has much more responsibility towards the student. The quality of graduates from integrated courses (at least in Greece) is much better than that of graduates of modular courses and that is reflected in airline hiring. Integrated graduates accounted for around 75% of newly hired first officers (fresh out of the school) of Olympic Air in Greece, during 2011 and 2012.
I believe it is not just the flight skills that matter. Determination, standardisation, discipline are just as important and you definitely have a better chance in improving in those areas if you follow a well-structured programme. I am not suggesting that all integrated graduates are perfect and all modular ones are crap, I am just saying that the programme you choose is just another tool (like the choice of a particular school, training material, instructors etc) that can help you become a better pilot and professional or not. At the end of the day it is up to you.
I believe that quality in training is very important not only for the obvious safety reasons but for your career, especially during your first steps. When I was looking at different schools (in Greece, where I live) to do my training most schools pushed for the modular route and I was convinced that this was the right move. However, when I started talking with graduates and current students 8 out 10 told me that integrated was the right choice, provided you have the money to complete the training. When I started my ATPL Integrated course with a school in Greece (the only one which advised me to do the integrated btw) I understood why most graduates advised me to do that. The integrated is a complete course and the school has much more responsibility towards the student. The quality of graduates from integrated courses (at least in Greece) is much better than that of graduates of modular courses and that is reflected in airline hiring. Integrated graduates accounted for around 75% of newly hired first officers (fresh out of the school) of Olympic Air in Greece, during 2011 and 2012.
I believe it is not just the flight skills that matter. Determination, standardisation, discipline are just as important and you definitely have a better chance in improving in those areas if you follow a well-structured programme. I am not suggesting that all integrated graduates are perfect and all modular ones are crap, I am just saying that the programme you choose is just another tool (like the choice of a particular school, training material, instructors etc) that can help you become a better pilot and professional or not. At the end of the day it is up to you.
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The fact that 75% of new FO's are from integrated schools is nothing to do with the quality of the pilot, and everything to do with the fact that the schools have contracts with all the major airlines to provide a proportion of their new pilots, and the airlines can offset huge amounts of money against tax for training purposes when you come through an integrated school which is registered as a learning establishment.
The cold hard facts are that it is in the interest of both the integrated schools and the airlines to take on integrated pilots for these reasons, it has absolutely nothing to do with quality of pilot. Why else would the integrated schools be able to charge £70k+ for a set of licences which will cost you almost half that if you did a modular course?!
At the end of the day you pay for two things when going integrated; speed, and contacts. If you have the money to pay the premium then go for it, but dont kid yourself that it has anything to do with becoming a better pilot
The cold hard facts are that it is in the interest of both the integrated schools and the airlines to take on integrated pilots for these reasons, it has absolutely nothing to do with quality of pilot. Why else would the integrated schools be able to charge £70k+ for a set of licences which will cost you almost half that if you did a modular course?!
At the end of the day you pay for two things when going integrated; speed, and contacts. If you have the money to pay the premium then go for it, but dont kid yourself that it has anything to do with becoming a better pilot
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Where did you get that 
about 75%?
I have line trained 12 FO's in the last year all of which are modular and all get payed more than flexi contract and ryanair and fly a crappy manual TP. And morethan likely will be LHS in under 3 years. earning I might add more than a Norweign 787 Captain
about 75%?I have line trained 12 FO's in the last year all of which are modular and all get payed more than flexi contract and ryanair and fly a crappy manual TP. And morethan likely will be LHS in under 3 years. earning I might add more than a Norweign 787 Captain