Growing Evidence That The Upturn Is Upon Us
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Oh please... some of you really do need to get off your moral high horse! the bloody banks got us into this mess buy being generally greedy and incompetent at everything they did, not from little timmy posting a 100k writedown to their balance sheet... these are the same banks who smugly used to lord it over everyone about how many billions profit they made.
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WWW
you must be talking about the last thought that comes to the mind of a hopeles pilot before he is looking for a gun or attempting a 45-degree nose down!!
If this is the case, then yes..I agree
you must be talking about the last thought that comes to the mind of a hopeles pilot before he is looking for a gun or attempting a 45-degree nose down!!
If this is the case, then yes..I agree
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The more who declare bankruptcy, the more chances that the profession will be blacklisted by any financial institution in the future. Whether that is a good thing or not remains to be seen. Certainly, it may stop the market being overwhelmed by ATPL(f)s, and certainly put an end to those who think it is acceptable to pay to fly, or even fly for nothing. It will be a better day for us all when CTC et al close their doors.
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As Heli-port says, the chances of £75k being unsecured debt is virtually zero so , bankruptcy is not a viable option.
As for bankruptcy itself, I'm horrified to see that anyone would advocate this as a way out of debt which you knew you were getting into.
Apart from that , you would become 'sub-prime' for decades to come.
o chance of a mortgage, car loan, mobile phone account, credit card etc etc for a lot more than seven years.
Anyway, the good news is it's christmas and oil is $35 and didn't hit the $200 predicted by our resident financial experts for this festive date!
Whilst the price of oil is branded as a 'sideshow' here, I think it would have become more than a sideshow for a number of airlines if it had hit $200!!!
Merry Xmas and let's hope for a better New Year than predicted!
As for bankruptcy itself, I'm horrified to see that anyone would advocate this as a way out of debt which you knew you were getting into.
Apart from that , you would become 'sub-prime' for decades to come.
o chance of a mortgage, car loan, mobile phone account, credit card etc etc for a lot more than seven years.
Anyway, the good news is it's christmas and oil is $35 and didn't hit the $200 predicted by our resident financial experts for this festive date!
Whilst the price of oil is branded as a 'sideshow' here, I think it would have become more than a sideshow for a number of airlines if it had hit $200!!!
Merry Xmas and let's hope for a better New Year than predicted!
Last edited by clear prop!!!; 26th Dec 2008 at 14:24.
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Is it hardly surprising that individuals see declaring themselves as bankrupt as a good option when they find themselves in the poo? I was taught you pay back what you owe, and as a business if you can't then you go bust. Seems these days that has changed and all businesses have to do is declare themselves essential to the existance of the economy/world/universe and then they get lots of money from taxpayers. Let them go bust and then jail the corrupt and greedy individuals that have caused this problem! Will be a warning for future individuals who want to make a quick buck from the system.
Its very easy to play the puritan. I'm slightly to the right of Norman Tebbit myself.
Nevertheless. The morality of going bankrupt does have to be carefully balanced against the morality of the money lenders. I just cannot make my heart bleed for the banks nor the airlines nor the training industry that have conspired to put Wannabes into MASSIVE debt secured against a flimsy dream.
The protection of the bankruptcy Court is just that. Protection of the individual in hopeless debt against those that they owe. Without such a protection mechanism the banks would end up owning people. Morally that is unacceptable. A Wannabe owing £80k might never find a job that paid enough for them to ever escape the interest on their loan. Conceivably they could spend their entire adult life working to pay the bankers.
Whilst there is of course a requirement for people to borrow responsibly there is just as large, if not greater, requirement for the money lenders to lend responsibly. The bible is pretty clear about money lenders and temples.
I contend that it was totally irresponsible for the banks and the commercial companies involved to place so many wannabes so deeply in debt on such a flimsy basis. That some Wannabes honestly find themselves so hopelessly in debt now the industry has turned down is neither suprising nor their fault. That some entered the debt knowing that ultimately bankruptcy was their safety net is nothing more than rational risk assessment.
The result of such relaxed lending was to spark a cancer in the airline industry. The symptoms were self sponsored type ratings, working for peanuts on a trial basis and starting your first day of work owing more than a mortgage and thus being effectively bonded for the sum the size of a mortgage. Further the easy credit just increased the supply of pilots and thereby undermined the value of those already in the industry. Irresponsible lending just caused a glut of new pilots to the detriment of all. Do not lament its passing.
Be clear that the consequences of personal bankruptcy in 2008 are minor. You will not be blacklisted from credit. Your CV will not be rendered worthless. People will not shun you socially. The law cares little and the jails are certainly far too full of and far too well supplied with violent criminals for the threat of jail to be anything more than theoretical. The bankruptcy itself only lasts for 2 years and its requirements are not onerous for most young wannabes who have neither a family home or family commitments.
The Wannabe or youngish pilot with £75K of unsecured debt is not a rare species. I expect in 2009 there will be hundreds who will seek, and secure, the protection of the bankruptcy courts. When you understand what money is and how it is created you will find it hard to think that anybody has lost anything by a Wannabe going bankrupt. 8/9ths of the money never existed in the first place. Look up Money As Debt or the topic of Fractional Reserve Banking to learn why if you don't already know.
Wannabes need to be fully versed in the issue of bankruptcy for many reasons. Perhaps the most straightforward reason is to know what they are in competition with. Other Wannabes will be racking up £75k worth of debt to pay for fast track training, maybe even a type rating. They then go bust and free of interest repayments can take a job flying for food and still manage. Meanwhile Joe Wannabe who would never dream of going bankrupt or risking reckless debt is let plodding away for years getting trained and could never stretch as far as a self sponsored type rating. He's crowded out of the marketplace by the reckless who is willing to use bankruptcy.
Without knowing about this risk our hero, Joe Wannabe, is playing against a loaded deck.
Its a very worthy topic of Wannabe debate. I know several at various points in the process. Several have gone bankrupt and its worked like a charm. its a fact and anybody saying you can't say the truth is either a censor, a tyrant or a vested interest.
And anyway. In 2009/10 there will be more established pilots in the bankruptcy courts than there will be wannabes. This is going to be worse than the 1991 recession and therefore more airlines will go bust than then. It was horrific then. It will be worse now. This is not going to be a Sept11th style dip. The BIG crashes will be winter 2009. If you are a wannabe stay as clear as possible.
WWW
Nevertheless. The morality of going bankrupt does have to be carefully balanced against the morality of the money lenders. I just cannot make my heart bleed for the banks nor the airlines nor the training industry that have conspired to put Wannabes into MASSIVE debt secured against a flimsy dream.
The protection of the bankruptcy Court is just that. Protection of the individual in hopeless debt against those that they owe. Without such a protection mechanism the banks would end up owning people. Morally that is unacceptable. A Wannabe owing £80k might never find a job that paid enough for them to ever escape the interest on their loan. Conceivably they could spend their entire adult life working to pay the bankers.
Whilst there is of course a requirement for people to borrow responsibly there is just as large, if not greater, requirement for the money lenders to lend responsibly. The bible is pretty clear about money lenders and temples.
I contend that it was totally irresponsible for the banks and the commercial companies involved to place so many wannabes so deeply in debt on such a flimsy basis. That some Wannabes honestly find themselves so hopelessly in debt now the industry has turned down is neither suprising nor their fault. That some entered the debt knowing that ultimately bankruptcy was their safety net is nothing more than rational risk assessment.
The result of such relaxed lending was to spark a cancer in the airline industry. The symptoms were self sponsored type ratings, working for peanuts on a trial basis and starting your first day of work owing more than a mortgage and thus being effectively bonded for the sum the size of a mortgage. Further the easy credit just increased the supply of pilots and thereby undermined the value of those already in the industry. Irresponsible lending just caused a glut of new pilots to the detriment of all. Do not lament its passing.
Be clear that the consequences of personal bankruptcy in 2008 are minor. You will not be blacklisted from credit. Your CV will not be rendered worthless. People will not shun you socially. The law cares little and the jails are certainly far too full of and far too well supplied with violent criminals for the threat of jail to be anything more than theoretical. The bankruptcy itself only lasts for 2 years and its requirements are not onerous for most young wannabes who have neither a family home or family commitments.
The Wannabe or youngish pilot with £75K of unsecured debt is not a rare species. I expect in 2009 there will be hundreds who will seek, and secure, the protection of the bankruptcy courts. When you understand what money is and how it is created you will find it hard to think that anybody has lost anything by a Wannabe going bankrupt. 8/9ths of the money never existed in the first place. Look up Money As Debt or the topic of Fractional Reserve Banking to learn why if you don't already know.
Wannabes need to be fully versed in the issue of bankruptcy for many reasons. Perhaps the most straightforward reason is to know what they are in competition with. Other Wannabes will be racking up £75k worth of debt to pay for fast track training, maybe even a type rating. They then go bust and free of interest repayments can take a job flying for food and still manage. Meanwhile Joe Wannabe who would never dream of going bankrupt or risking reckless debt is let plodding away for years getting trained and could never stretch as far as a self sponsored type rating. He's crowded out of the marketplace by the reckless who is willing to use bankruptcy.
Without knowing about this risk our hero, Joe Wannabe, is playing against a loaded deck.
Its a very worthy topic of Wannabe debate. I know several at various points in the process. Several have gone bankrupt and its worked like a charm. its a fact and anybody saying you can't say the truth is either a censor, a tyrant or a vested interest.
And anyway. In 2009/10 there will be more established pilots in the bankruptcy courts than there will be wannabes. This is going to be worse than the 1991 recession and therefore more airlines will go bust than then. It was horrific then. It will be worse now. This is not going to be a Sept11th style dip. The BIG crashes will be winter 2009. If you are a wannabe stay as clear as possible.
WWW
To put a different spin on this, why should I pay back the money I owe if people who borrowed knowing they most probably wouldn't be able to pay it back go bankrupt? Why the hell should I? Let's all have our debts written off...and while we're at it let's get all trainee Lawyers, Doctors and Vets who borrowed similar amounts of money under the same loan agreement with the same bank, claim bankruptcy as well.
There you've identified the problem that causes the terror in the eyes of the banks, the Government and the System.
They are terrified of the return of jingle mail. That's where thousands, tens of thousands, start to simply post their house keys back to the banks. The house is worth tens of thousands of pounds less than they owe on it, they have no savings, few assets and maxed out credit cards. They are men of straw. By going bankrupt they can walk away from it all and then start again. If this goes mainstream then the Western system of debt slavery falls apart.
They have to keep the majority in debt for the majority of their adult lives. It is only by being in debt that they will continue to be good little workers, hold down multiple jobs per household and continue to operate in the economy. The magic force that gets people out of their cosy beds and ferreting around each day running the modern economy. The fruits of which for the wealthy who own all the Capital (about 4% of the world) are the wonderful comfortable lives they lead with health, travel, communications and recreational technology that would have been unimaginable only 50 years ago.
A perfectly viable system and in most ways better for everyone than, say, Communism.
However, they know that they've pushed it too far this time. Gotten too many too far into debt and been too obvious about the immense profits from doing so. So the System is scared. Scared of debt deflation. Scared of debt default. Scared of an attitude change away from rampant consumerism. Scared of civil unrest if the banks fail. Scared of civil disorder if people start walking away from their debts en masse.
They've overcooked it this time and they know it.
Lets be honest. You owe £75k to the bank, you have a pilots license but no job, the interest repayment is £1000 a month and you can only get a job on minimum wage. There is no realistic way out of that. It doesn't matter is the debt is unsecured or secured on a house in negative equity. You're going to go bankrupt and happily if you are young or have no particular family commitments it is going to be easy and painless.
Morality is a sideshow. A bit like oil.
WWW
ps Clear Prop! I've looked back and can't find any poster here giving their opinion that oil would reach $200 so please stop implying that there were.
It is depressing yes.
The world won't end though. I truly believe that the web is going to make as much difference to this century as the printing press did to the last. What was once - a decade ago - fairly esoteric discussion on things like monetarism, finance and economics is now readily available. People are becoming less ignorant, more informed, less naive.
The world as it actually is is becoming more and more apparent to more and more people.
Already the CEBR are predicting a UK economic contraction of 2.9% for 2009. That is absolutely massive. At least half as big again as the worst of the 1991 recession. Prepare and plan accordingly.
WWW
The world won't end though. I truly believe that the web is going to make as much difference to this century as the printing press did to the last. What was once - a decade ago - fairly esoteric discussion on things like monetarism, finance and economics is now readily available. People are becoming less ignorant, more informed, less naive.
The world as it actually is is becoming more and more apparent to more and more people.
Already the CEBR are predicting a UK economic contraction of 2.9% for 2009. That is absolutely massive. At least half as big again as the worst of the 1991 recession. Prepare and plan accordingly.
WWW
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WWW,
Well...as always will be right, but I'm pretty sure it was there on the 'downturn' thread.
Judging by the number of other refs to it others, too must have seen it.
However,...I did find this post.... by your good self
(april 28th Downturn thread)
OK not $200 but no where near $35!!
ps Clear Prop! I've looked back and can't find any poster here giving their opinion that oil would reach $200 so please stop implying that there were.
Judging by the number of other refs to it others, too must have seen it.
However,...I did find this post.... by your good self
Oil will touch $150 a barrel by Christmas. That's my guess, in print, lets see come Boxing Day.
OK not $200 but no where near $35!!
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Bankruptcy, and the morality of the lenders, you must be kidding me?
Most pilots have probably been begging on their knees to get some of those loans, that they can not afford to pay back. I would say those considering Bankruptcy - would should not be fit for the job. They have shown a serious lack of judgement, which I would not want any pilot having when I was flying with him.
The pilot would have to be Dumb to believe there would be a job waiting for him as soon as he finished his CPL/IR with 200 - 250 hours.
With some research in advance, you should also calculate, expect to wait 2 to 5 years to build hours before even being considerd for a job as a pilot, years which is a part of your school and education to build hours, to gain more experience and training.
I refused to take the responability of putting my mothers house in jeopardy 20 years ago, and thats why I am now trying a little later then expected. But now I can fund it mostly myself, trough my own business and own hard work.
I did not want my actions to cause my mother to loose her house.
Encouraging someone to speculate on bankruptcy, is not right. I believe if this is your dream, then find ways to make the school as cheap as possible, to lower your risk - pilots need to be able to make risk assesments, in case of emergencies, however some prospective students are not able to do that about their own life. So if their own life crashes, how will that make them a secure pilot?
Many should not spend all in one go, my instructor now when I was retaking my PPL again told me to pace my flying, so I get all the important things I need. I had planned to go over to the US, and blow 10K on flying, just to build some hours, as he said, dont go just flying holes in the sky, you might need the money later!
Now I am lucky that I did not start on scratch, I have still 120 hours logged from 20 years ago, which I can use towards my licenses, and that saves me very much money, compaired to someone starting fresh today.
But if you are young and new, you have plenty of time - make it run over 3 to 5 years to get all you need, and work at the same time, and make personal sacrifises. If you can't do that now, then maybe this is not the right education for you - it's about more then flying - you do not want to be under pressure that you going to make your family loose their home. Or maybe you don't care or understand this? If so good riddance to you.
Most pilots have probably been begging on their knees to get some of those loans, that they can not afford to pay back. I would say those considering Bankruptcy - would should not be fit for the job. They have shown a serious lack of judgement, which I would not want any pilot having when I was flying with him.
The pilot would have to be Dumb to believe there would be a job waiting for him as soon as he finished his CPL/IR with 200 - 250 hours.
With some research in advance, you should also calculate, expect to wait 2 to 5 years to build hours before even being considerd for a job as a pilot, years which is a part of your school and education to build hours, to gain more experience and training.
I refused to take the responability of putting my mothers house in jeopardy 20 years ago, and thats why I am now trying a little later then expected. But now I can fund it mostly myself, trough my own business and own hard work.
I did not want my actions to cause my mother to loose her house.
Encouraging someone to speculate on bankruptcy, is not right. I believe if this is your dream, then find ways to make the school as cheap as possible, to lower your risk - pilots need to be able to make risk assesments, in case of emergencies, however some prospective students are not able to do that about their own life. So if their own life crashes, how will that make them a secure pilot?
Many should not spend all in one go, my instructor now when I was retaking my PPL again told me to pace my flying, so I get all the important things I need. I had planned to go over to the US, and blow 10K on flying, just to build some hours, as he said, dont go just flying holes in the sky, you might need the money later!
Now I am lucky that I did not start on scratch, I have still 120 hours logged from 20 years ago, which I can use towards my licenses, and that saves me very much money, compaired to someone starting fresh today.
But if you are young and new, you have plenty of time - make it run over 3 to 5 years to get all you need, and work at the same time, and make personal sacrifises. If you can't do that now, then maybe this is not the right education for you - it's about more then flying - you do not want to be under pressure that you going to make your family loose their home. Or maybe you don't care or understand this? If so good riddance to you.
and on a happier note, banks have been seen to dramatically reduce the number of loans available on offer. EG a £5k loan a year ago could be had for about 13.5% interest. Today, it was reported that this will cost between 20-24% with some lenders charging between 50-70%!!!!!
I doubt many will get loans to fund flying next year!
I doubt many will get loans to fund flying next year!
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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Just to spin the argument around.
I'm not an ATPL holder, and have no intention of becoming one, whatever the economic conditions (I'm a PPL, I know my limits!) but I have spent many years working at the higher levels of management in the airline game.
The ATPL training market has many of the features of the housing market. People have been encouraged to "follow their dreams" and get that licence/buy that house. Not to worry that you can't really afford it - your salary will rise/your house price will rise.
Until it doesn't, one day.
What has been driving house prices is NOT shortage of supply.
What has been driving training costs is NOT a shortage of recently qualified pilots.
What is driving the whole thing was cheap money - too much money in the system causes rampant inflation. Turning the money off - as has now happened - has shown clearly just how much people were relying on cheap money to keep the lights on. The market works, friends.
We are paying the price now of seeing house prices fall since it is sooo hard to get a mortgage, and almost impossible to get one that covers more than about 75% of the house price. I would bet that we are going to see ATPL training costs start to fall soon, on the same logic - perhaps not far, but fall they will.
Over the next few years, the shortage of capital is going to stuff a few more airlines. Whether it stuffs as many as WWW mentioned - jury's out. I hate to say it, but I wouldn't bet against him. Whilst capital is expensive, and passengers are nervous about spending money, this is going to hurt....
The demand for qualified pilots is going to fall, and the number of qualified candidates looking for work will rise. For new graduates, it is going to get VERY hard - I'm already seeing a massive rise in CVs from new pilots at the organisations I work with.
This is going to have two effects - firstly, there will be downward pressure on salaries. Sorry folks. Secondly, when the downturn ends - and it will - the pilot shortage will be seen again. If capital is still hard to come by, and the banks are more nervous about lending lots of money to young applicants, then either these folks will have to forget it, raise the money some other way, or - wait for this - the airlines will have to start shelling out for training again. Why don't airlines now pay for training if they can help it? Simple - there have been enough people out there who want the jobs, who have had easy lending bankers, and access to training companies who kept telling them that the only way is up.
Right now, training for an ATPL looks like about as good an idea as buying a house on a 100% mortgage. Do it if you can afford to do it without saddling yourself with so much debt that you won't be able to live/eat/payback from your fallback career. If you are looking to do this with debt that you absolutely, definitely must become an airline pilot to pay off - you need your head examined, frankly. You may get lucky - you may get that first job, many do even now - but if you want to play in this casino, that's up to you. Please don't cause the banks - and the customers of banks - even more angst by thinking "well, I'll go bankrupt". The banks have had their lesson in the moral imperative, and I would bet that they will be spreading that love soon to all of us....
TA
I'm not an ATPL holder, and have no intention of becoming one, whatever the economic conditions (I'm a PPL, I know my limits!) but I have spent many years working at the higher levels of management in the airline game.
The ATPL training market has many of the features of the housing market. People have been encouraged to "follow their dreams" and get that licence/buy that house. Not to worry that you can't really afford it - your salary will rise/your house price will rise.
Until it doesn't, one day.
What has been driving house prices is NOT shortage of supply.
What has been driving training costs is NOT a shortage of recently qualified pilots.
What is driving the whole thing was cheap money - too much money in the system causes rampant inflation. Turning the money off - as has now happened - has shown clearly just how much people were relying on cheap money to keep the lights on. The market works, friends.
We are paying the price now of seeing house prices fall since it is sooo hard to get a mortgage, and almost impossible to get one that covers more than about 75% of the house price. I would bet that we are going to see ATPL training costs start to fall soon, on the same logic - perhaps not far, but fall they will.
Over the next few years, the shortage of capital is going to stuff a few more airlines. Whether it stuffs as many as WWW mentioned - jury's out. I hate to say it, but I wouldn't bet against him. Whilst capital is expensive, and passengers are nervous about spending money, this is going to hurt....
The demand for qualified pilots is going to fall, and the number of qualified candidates looking for work will rise. For new graduates, it is going to get VERY hard - I'm already seeing a massive rise in CVs from new pilots at the organisations I work with.
This is going to have two effects - firstly, there will be downward pressure on salaries. Sorry folks. Secondly, when the downturn ends - and it will - the pilot shortage will be seen again. If capital is still hard to come by, and the banks are more nervous about lending lots of money to young applicants, then either these folks will have to forget it, raise the money some other way, or - wait for this - the airlines will have to start shelling out for training again. Why don't airlines now pay for training if they can help it? Simple - there have been enough people out there who want the jobs, who have had easy lending bankers, and access to training companies who kept telling them that the only way is up.
Right now, training for an ATPL looks like about as good an idea as buying a house on a 100% mortgage. Do it if you can afford to do it without saddling yourself with so much debt that you won't be able to live/eat/payback from your fallback career. If you are looking to do this with debt that you absolutely, definitely must become an airline pilot to pay off - you need your head examined, frankly. You may get lucky - you may get that first job, many do even now - but if you want to play in this casino, that's up to you. Please don't cause the banks - and the customers of banks - even more angst by thinking "well, I'll go bankrupt". The banks have had their lesson in the moral imperative, and I would bet that they will be spreading that love soon to all of us....
TA
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One of the things that I think is really positive from this meltdown is that more people are starting to wake up a bit and see the world of corporations and capitalism for what it is... an interesting video I recently saw on the web is posted here for you, have a look...
www.storyofstuff.com
Topslide6:
Just to pick up on one of your points here, I think your view is a tad extreme saying that its your fault you can't get a job! And I'm sorry but working in McDonalds is not going to service a debt of £1000/month plus living allowances is it?
www.storyofstuff.com
Topslide6:
Tough tits. Can't afford to pay the money back because you can't get a flying job? Then it should never have been borrowed...and it's YOUR fault, not the banks. If you need to pick vegtables or work in McDonalds to pay it off, then do so.
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Just to pick up on one of your points here, I think your view is a tad extreme saying that its your fault you can't get a job! And I'm sorry but working in McDonalds is not going to service a debt of £1000/month plus living allowances is it?
Now, that isn't a result of the current climate, ..it's been that way for years.
Fact is, for years Integrated FTO's have sold the 'step into a jet job' scenario as the norm, when it never was.
Now more than ever it's a case of buyer beware.
There are still jobs out there, but you will have to work your way up to them and that will be extremely difficult with a mountain of debt to service.
Now, in amongst WWW's attempts to prove his in-depth knowledge of economics and bankruptcy law, there is a very simple and wise underlying piece of advice which, is very sound...
Avoid the sales patter of the integrated FTO's and CTC schemes,..don't burden yourself with any debt you can't service other than perhaps a CDL.
Forget Integrated, take time, and whatever job is on offer, even if it does involve a propeller.
But PLEASE, don't come into this business thinking that bankruptcy is the simple plan B!! That stinks to high heavens!!!!!
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Hmmmm,
I think personal dignity is a fine thing, and like to think I have a measure of it myself, but recent events in the world of money do make me wonder whether or not it's worth the indebted newbie making the effort to be anything other than pragmatic when dealing with their debts.
After all, banks etc. appear to have been playing silly arses left right and center over the past few years, and now that the poo's splattering the walls, it's all government bail-outs with tax payers cash, but short of a few well publicised sword fallers, I wonder how many high up bankers are feeling the pinch at the minute? I don't know, but I'd wager a small amount that not many of them are.
Likewise, the really. REALLY rich have elevated not paying their dues to society to an art form practised (to great personal financial gain) by a number of lawyers and accountants, and non of them think there's anything wrong with that. Far from it, in fact.
If non of the above have any qualms with fiddling what systems there are, then why not the man in the street, or the newbie fATPL with a "mere" 100k of debt?
Regards
JR
(an individual who's only debt is his extremely affordable 60% mortgage, but would happily poo all over any financial institution if he ever found himself in such a "cake or death" large debt scenario!)
(but who also would not get himself into large debt initially if he thought he couldn't pay it off...)
After all, banks etc. appear to have been playing silly arses left right and center over the past few years, and now that the poo's splattering the walls, it's all government bail-outs with tax payers cash, but short of a few well publicised sword fallers, I wonder how many high up bankers are feeling the pinch at the minute? I don't know, but I'd wager a small amount that not many of them are.
Likewise, the really. REALLY rich have elevated not paying their dues to society to an art form practised (to great personal financial gain) by a number of lawyers and accountants, and non of them think there's anything wrong with that. Far from it, in fact.
If non of the above have any qualms with fiddling what systems there are, then why not the man in the street, or the newbie fATPL with a "mere" 100k of debt?
Regards
JR
(an individual who's only debt is his extremely affordable 60% mortgage, but would happily poo all over any financial institution if he ever found himself in such a "cake or death" large debt scenario!)
(but who also would not get himself into large debt initially if he thought he couldn't pay it off...)
I would say those considering Bankruptcy - would should not be fit for the job. They have shown a serious lack of judgement, which I would not want any pilot having when I was flying with him.
The pilot would have to be Dumb to believe there would be a job waiting for him as soon as he finished his CPL/IR with 200 - 250 hours.
The pilot would have to be Dumb to believe there would be a job waiting for him as soon as he finished his CPL/IR with 200 - 250 hours.
I'm afraid you'll find that the modern Skipper is often spending his day in the flightdeck with FO's who owe more to the bank than he does and they have only the banger in the car park and their license to their name. Your hard-ass attitude wouldn't be popular.
Wannabes WEREN'T dumb to believe there would be a job waiting for them. In 2006 a CTC cadet coming back from New Zealand had the agonizing choice of several airlines and 6 months later going straight to BA shorthaul. Who could possibly blame a wannabe for signing up to a loan from a world class bank to attend a well respected training organisation that was happily and rapidly placing cadets in household name airlines? I tell you what - the Bankruptcy Judge certainly won't blame them.
WWW
ps Clear Prop! So, I called the house price crash and you poo poo'd me. I called the recession and you poo poo'd me. I called the oil price peak and you poo poo me. I'm starting the think you just don't like me..
I'm calling a wave of personal bankruptcy - at whatever stage of wannabeism you are at its as well to be prepared and knowledgeable about it.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nether Regions
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Oh you called it did you WWW?
You mean you called it 2 years ago to stop people graduating into this? No. The wannabes who are worst affected by this recession (recent graduates) are the same people who read your statements about the "golden age" of the wannabe.
You mean you called it 2 years ago to stop people graduating into this? No. The wannabes who are worst affected by this recession (recent graduates) are the same people who read your statements about the "golden age" of the wannabe.