Growing Evidence That The Upturn Is Upon Us
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The basic fundamentals of Economics are infact taught at school but as an option from GCSE level onwards. Business Studies also includes elements of Finance, Banking and Economics but I picked Economics as a seperate subject so not sure how deep Business Studies goes. One of the most interesting subjects I studied at school and was pretty popular so don't be too hasty to become grumpy WWW...it's Christmas!!!! 
I would agree that it should be a compulsory subject though. I don't pretend to know the inner workings of the stuff discussed above with my almighty GCSE in Economics but it gave me a grounding in the stuff that makes the world go round.
Festive Flying Squid
I would agree that it should be a compulsory subject though. I don't pretend to know the inner workings of the stuff discussed above with my almighty GCSE in Economics but it gave me a grounding in the stuff that makes the world go round.
Festive Flying Squid
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Getoffmycloud,
Maybe, maybe not. I'm not suggesting it will be easy. The Middle East aviation is still expanding. You and I probably can guess that they will cut back on that, but to what degree? I don't think Asia is as exposed as the mainstream press suggest. There are many more growing economies than China and Japan is not the be all and end all of the region. My message is if you want the job then and open mind, adaptability and flexibility will be key assets. All in my opinion of course.
Fascinating stuff and, well, yes, quite, that is what I am saying. The purpose of my post was to highlight that one way or another and sooner rather than later, the UK (in particular) is in a situation that it cannot get out of without real hurt.
What Re-heat is saying is that the mechanics that you are delving in are maybe are not as relevant to the core point that relates to the supply of money. Re-heat is not disagreeing with you in principle but also makes the point that if you delve into detail then it is necessary respond as such too. I welcome Re-heat's response as I welcome yours. He also made a point that has highlighted more research required on my part. Don't be frustrated by disagreement or indeed of armchair economists like myself. It is complex and difficult to get across in words without considerable volume.
WWW,
Indeed, it is very sinister. One example is the recent Madoff scam. There are endless articles dedicated to it but not one single article can I find in the mainstream press that has any real substance. You will not find the mainstream media explaining how monetarism works. I suspect that the reality of the Madoff scam is that he simply practiced a form of embezzlement not too dissimilar to that practiced legally by the banks on a daily basis! If the average man on the street understood how, they wouldn't believe it.
Flying Squid,
FWIW (I hated the subject then I didn't pay attention), I studied Economics at 'O' Level, the subject concentrated on the markets (very basic stuff) which is really a parallel subject to fractional (or zero!) reserve monetarism.
Even jobs in the middle east (that bastion of aviation) are starting to dry up.
No worries scolistes but don't put you cash on the line betting on the government or BoE getting us out of this mess in a painless fashion.
Geeez re-heat you are something else.... so where exactly do you disagree with my original post
WWW,
Its also remarkably difficult to find this sort of material on the web outside of certain economics forums...I find it frankly sinister that not even the very basics of banking, finance and money is taught in the education system.
Flying Squid,
FWIW (I hated the subject then I didn't pay attention), I studied Economics at 'O' Level, the subject concentrated on the markets (very basic stuff) which is really a parallel subject to fractional (or zero!) reserve monetarism.
Last edited by Sciolistes; 23rd Dec 2008 at 00:52.
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One of the main points lost in the credit crunch is that those people who exercised restraint, saved their money and did not borrow wildly are the ones having to pay for those who did borrow money they could not afford whether it was to buy an over priced house or fund training for a career where there is an over supply of wannabes.
It is impossible to get a loan for almost anything yet savers are getting naff all in interest rates. So both borrowers and savers are hit.
It is not so long ago that there was a thread in the forum of people advocating borrowing money to train and then going bankrupt to avoid repaying the loan.
I dont know what it is about this industry that makes people take leave of their senses to want to sit in front of a machine and operate mainly automatic systems and fork out the thick end of £100k to do so. It is not the sort of thing a responsible person should be looking to do. Maybe it is the uniform.
While the wannabes are doing this the airlines are excused the responsibility of selecting and training sane, sensible people and sorting this out before the money is spent (by the airline).
I would not trust the FTOs as far as I could throw them to be objective when someone walks through the door with £000s hanging out of their pockets. After all would a drug dealer try and pursuade a junkie not to buy his stuff on the grounds that it was bad for him?
When its all spent, the wannabe is not the FTOs' problem anymore and they become victims of the market.
I personally know too many marking time as instructors or CC or odd job men, and are finding it even tougher now.
The downturn will get worse. The first industry to recover will be construction (it always is) but not before 2010 and the rest will slowly follow.
Whilst load factors might seem good, it will because capacity has been cut along with prices and that means less money for investment and growth and pay etc.
I have experienced every recession since the oil crisis in the early 70s and it has never got this bad so quickly and there seems nothing can stop it getting worse. I can find no redeeming features or any scope for optimism.
Merry Christmas.
It is impossible to get a loan for almost anything yet savers are getting naff all in interest rates. So both borrowers and savers are hit.
It is not so long ago that there was a thread in the forum of people advocating borrowing money to train and then going bankrupt to avoid repaying the loan.
I dont know what it is about this industry that makes people take leave of their senses to want to sit in front of a machine and operate mainly automatic systems and fork out the thick end of £100k to do so. It is not the sort of thing a responsible person should be looking to do. Maybe it is the uniform.
While the wannabes are doing this the airlines are excused the responsibility of selecting and training sane, sensible people and sorting this out before the money is spent (by the airline).
I would not trust the FTOs as far as I could throw them to be objective when someone walks through the door with £000s hanging out of their pockets. After all would a drug dealer try and pursuade a junkie not to buy his stuff on the grounds that it was bad for him?
When its all spent, the wannabe is not the FTOs' problem anymore and they become victims of the market.
I personally know too many marking time as instructors or CC or odd job men, and are finding it even tougher now.
The downturn will get worse. The first industry to recover will be construction (it always is) but not before 2010 and the rest will slowly follow.
Whilst load factors might seem good, it will because capacity has been cut along with prices and that means less money for investment and growth and pay etc.
I have experienced every recession since the oil crisis in the early 70s and it has never got this bad so quickly and there seems nothing can stop it getting worse. I can find no redeeming features or any scope for optimism.
Merry Christmas.
People going bankrupt after training funded by borrowed money is going to become VERY fashionable in 2009. Those that always planned to do so are the winners in all this as it won't be in any way remarkable or unusual.
I always said that it was a logical plan with a high chance of success.
WWW
I always said that it was a logical plan with a high chance of success.
WWW
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What is Bankruptcy?
Introduction
Bankruptcy is an option that often has to be considered when an individual cannot pay their debts as they fall due. A first time bankrupt with debts will generally receive their discharge one year after the date of the bankruptcy order (there is the possibility that in some cases the bankruptcy discharge period will be less than one year). Although bankruptcy has a bad stigma and is publicly advertised, it should always be considered when dealing with individual insolvency cases.
Please note that if your are ever faced with the prospect of bankruptcy you should look at alternatives as soon as possible such as the
Individual Voluntary Arrangement procedure (IVA).
Bankruptcy is one way of dealing with debts you cannot pay.
The bankruptcy proceedings:-
How are you made bankrupt?
An individual can be made bankrupt either in one of three ways:
What are the implications of bankruptcy?
Introduction
Bankruptcy is an option that often has to be considered when an individual cannot pay their debts as they fall due. A first time bankrupt with debts will generally receive their discharge one year after the date of the bankruptcy order (there is the possibility that in some cases the bankruptcy discharge period will be less than one year). Although bankruptcy has a bad stigma and is publicly advertised, it should always be considered when dealing with individual insolvency cases.
Please note that if your are ever faced with the prospect of bankruptcy you should look at alternatives as soon as possible such as the
Individual Voluntary Arrangement procedure (IVA).
Bankruptcy is one way of dealing with debts you cannot pay.
The bankruptcy proceedings:-
- free you from overwhelming debts so you can make a fresh start, subject to some restrictions
- make sure your assets are shared out fairly among your creditors.
How are you made bankrupt?
An individual can be made bankrupt either in one of three ways:
- Voluntarily - By the debtor themselves.
- Involuntarily - By the creditor owed money (£750 Minimum).
- The supervisor or anyone bound by an IVA
What are the implications of bankruptcy?
- You lose control of your assets.
- You cannot obtain credit for over £250 without the permission from the lender.
- You cannot act as a company director.
- You cannot take any part in the promotion, formation or management of a limited company (LTD) without the permission of the court.
- You cannot trade in any business under any other name unless you inform all persons concerned of the bankruptcy.
- You may not practice as a Charted Accountant / Lawyer.
- You may not act as a Justice of the peace (JP).
- You may not become an member of parliament.
- You may not become a member of the local authority.
- Your credit is affected for many years after the annulment.
- You may be publicly examined in court.
- For the person involved, bankruptcy provides relative peace of mind and possible automatic discharge after one year (or less in some cases).
- For the creditors, bankruptcy allows a full investigation of the debtor's affairs to be carried out.
As one of the implications, i would add cannot pilot an aircraft!
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Assuming no assets/responsibilities, the 'borrow/go bankrupt' could be a (slight tongue-in-cheek) logical choice PROVIDING you have stowed away enough hidden cash to keep current for a while. The whole system is faulty-was a time when hard work/determination could produce a commercial licence. Think the total I spent on PPL-ATPL/IR was around £18,000 over a few years. The current system for >£70,000 just lines the pockets of 'training' organisations. All very sad.
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Think the total I spent on PPL-ATPL/IR was around £18,000 over a few years.
What are the implications of bankruptcy?
You lose control of your assets.
You don't have any assets. You're in your 20's no property and drive a banger. Your asset is your Frzn ATPL and they can't take that (or the car).
You cannot obtain credit for over £250 without the permission from the lender.
You wouldn't need to.
You cannot act as a company director.
You weren't planning to.
You cannot take any part in the promotion, formation or management of a limited company (LTD) without the permission of the court.
You're £80k in the hole and wanting to be a pilot - setting up a company ain't high on your list of things to do.
You cannot trade in any business under any other name unless you inform all persons concerned of the bankruptcy.
See above.
You may not practice as a Charted Accountant / Lawyer.
Well you're not qualified anyway.
You may not act as a Justice of the peace (JP).
An unpaid position you are unlikely to get until middle age.
You may not become an member of parliament.
OK
You may not become a member of the local authority.
The council don't have a corporate jet fleet.
Your credit is affected for many years after the annulment.
7 years. Live without a credit card - I do.
You may be publicly examined in court.
For about 5 minutes followed by a judge banging a gavel and wiping away your £80k debt. Possibly the best 5 minutes of your life.
I know several pilots currently flying who have either been bankrupt, are likely to do so or who are in the IVA process. It has no bearing. Gordon Brown trimmed bankruptcy down from 7 years to 2 soon after entering Downing Street.
You simply cannot support a £75k debt mountain with a job in Starbucks.
WWW
You lose control of your assets.
You don't have any assets. You're in your 20's no property and drive a banger. Your asset is your Frzn ATPL and they can't take that (or the car).
You cannot obtain credit for over £250 without the permission from the lender.
You wouldn't need to.
You cannot act as a company director.
You weren't planning to.
You cannot take any part in the promotion, formation or management of a limited company (LTD) without the permission of the court.
You're £80k in the hole and wanting to be a pilot - setting up a company ain't high on your list of things to do.
You cannot trade in any business under any other name unless you inform all persons concerned of the bankruptcy.
See above.
You may not practice as a Charted Accountant / Lawyer.
Well you're not qualified anyway.
You may not act as a Justice of the peace (JP).
An unpaid position you are unlikely to get until middle age.
You may not become an member of parliament.
OK
You may not become a member of the local authority.
The council don't have a corporate jet fleet.
Your credit is affected for many years after the annulment.
7 years. Live without a credit card - I do.
You may be publicly examined in court.
For about 5 minutes followed by a judge banging a gavel and wiping away your £80k debt. Possibly the best 5 minutes of your life.
I know several pilots currently flying who have either been bankrupt, are likely to do so or who are in the IVA process. It has no bearing. Gordon Brown trimmed bankruptcy down from 7 years to 2 soon after entering Downing Street.
You simply cannot support a £75k debt mountain with a job in Starbucks.
WWW
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I met a friend of mine this week who is a senior bod for a large bank in Canary Wharf. His view was the worst is yet to come. Further house price falls, negative economic growth and a lot more firms going to the wall.
Another 15% off house prices in 2009 is my prediction. Negative equity will then extend to about 1 in 5 households. Any business which is consumer facing with high fixed costs and sells discretionary goods is going to get hammered.
That's all airlines.
WWW
That's all airlines.
WWW
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People advocating bankruptcy as a means to shirking responsibilities you signed up to.... it makes me sick.... people who do this are part of the problem and should hang their heads in shame. 
A generation ago if you went bankrupt the public nature and the loss of face was for many too much to deal with. What sort of society are we in where people have so little respect for the agreements they signed up for. And you complain when managements screw pilots... hipocrites!!
Defending bankruptcy as a option is a reflection of all that is wrong in society today.... you should be made to work in Mcdonalds if needs be till you pay the money back you owe.
Why should someone else pay off your debts for you?? Just because you don't pay it the debt does not just go away it results in banks posting losses... lower returns for pension.... even government bailouts.... which leads to economic malaise.
Greed greed greed.... all because "I want to be a pilot now and can't be arsed to work and save the money"..... no f'ing backbone or self-respect if you go down the bankruptcy route.
RANT over (for now)
A generation ago if you went bankrupt the public nature and the loss of face was for many too much to deal with. What sort of society are we in where people have so little respect for the agreements they signed up for. And you complain when managements screw pilots... hipocrites!!
Defending bankruptcy as a option is a reflection of all that is wrong in society today.... you should be made to work in Mcdonalds if needs be till you pay the money back you owe.
Why should someone else pay off your debts for you?? Just because you don't pay it the debt does not just go away it results in banks posting losses... lower returns for pension.... even government bailouts.... which leads to economic malaise.
Greed greed greed.... all because "I want to be a pilot now and can't be arsed to work and save the money"..... no f'ing backbone or self-respect if you go down the bankruptcy route.
RANT over (for now)
PPRuNe Handmaiden
WWW,
As one who's worked many jobs to get to where I am now I am really disappointed in your support of bankruptcy as an acceptable means of discharging a debt.
As one who's worked many jobs to get to where I am now I am really disappointed in your support of bankruptcy as an acceptable means of discharging a debt.
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People advocating bankruptcy as a means to shirking responsibilities you signed up to.... it makes me sick.... people who do this are part of the problem and should hang their heads in shame. 
I met a friend of mine this week who is a senior bod for a large bank in Canary Wharf. His view was the worst is yet to come. Further house price falls, negative economic growth and a lot more firms going to the wall.
I know several pilots currently flying who have either been bankrupt, are likely to do so or who are in the IVA process. It has no bearing. Gordon Brown trimmed bankruptcy down from 7 years to 2 soon after entering Downing Street.
I'm still in debt, have no real assets as such, my mortgage is more than the value of my house, I have a reasonably well paid job though. Can I declare bankruptcy? Sounds like A great way out of paying off these credit cards and loans.
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Bankruptcy...Hmmmm.
What does that say about a person when that's on the CV?
Let me put it like this. I will have a couple of jobs coming up next year shovelling chicken ****. Who gets the jobs? it wont be bankrupts that's for sure. In a couple of years time, I hope the guys on the end of that shovel can get either a promotion with me, in sales, or farm management, or get better jobs elsewhere. One thing I know, I wont be employing bankrupts. I need responsible people, and I need winners, even when it come to shovelling ****e.
Take care guys, don't take that easy option. Personal bankruptcy is different from a ltd. co. going bust.
What does that say about a person when that's on the CV?
Let me put it like this. I will have a couple of jobs coming up next year shovelling chicken ****. Who gets the jobs? it wont be bankrupts that's for sure. In a couple of years time, I hope the guys on the end of that shovel can get either a promotion with me, in sales, or farm management, or get better jobs elsewhere. One thing I know, I wont be employing bankrupts. I need responsible people, and I need winners, even when it come to shovelling ****e.
Take care guys, don't take that easy option. Personal bankruptcy is different from a ltd. co. going bust.
Just for clarity, I have never ever been asked if I was a bankrypt at interview. I have never seen it on a CV either. How would your future employer ever know? Just wondering.
ps, I dont intend to declare bankruptcy, was only joking.
ps, I dont intend to declare bankruptcy, was only joking.
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I hope that bankrupcy is not seen as an easy way out of ones obligations. One would hope that the guys sitting up front in charge of a couple of hundred souls have a sounder moral base than that.
As an employer, the best way to predict future behaviour is to look at past behaviour. A welcher will always tend to be a welcher.
As an employer, the best way to predict future behaviour is to look at past behaviour. A welcher will always tend to be a welcher.
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Just for clarity, I have never ever been asked if I was a bankrypt at interview. I have never seen it on a CV either. How would your future employer ever know? Just wondering
When i got my banking job all those years ago, a credit check was definetly carried out by my employer.
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Oh please... some of you really do need to get off your moral high horse! the bloody banks got us into this mess buy being generally greedy and incompetent at everything they did, not from little timmy posting a 100k writedown to their balance sheet... these are the same banks who smugly used to lord it over everyone about how many billions profit they made.
If your backs against the wall with 100k round your neck and no job in the pipeline, you may be forced into it. The insolvency service look for deliberate cases, so people who plan bankruptcy may get caught out and this can lead to all sorts of restrictions.
If your backs against the wall with 100k round your neck and no job in the pipeline, you may be forced into it. The insolvency service look for deliberate cases, so people who plan bankruptcy may get caught out and this can lead to all sorts of restrictions.