Dear Deidre - What should I do?

[Llen]

Hi all

This is my first post - so please go gentle on me!

I don't want to bore everyone with my personal circumstances, but essentially I'm a 32 year old fella whose currently working in the financial services industry. I've always dreamed of being a pilot and now I've decided to really go for it. I've no flying experience other than 2 trial flights.

I've recently failed at stage 2 of the Netjets scheme with OAT (passed COMPASS to a sufficient level for APPFO but not good enough for Netjets competition) and in the past was unsuccessful at assessment for the old BA sponsored cadet scheme (let down by verbal reasoning).

My confidence is a bit shot at the moment from these two experiences and I'm questioning my aptitude. I've no doubts around my academic ability but can I really cut it flying?

I will be in the position in the near future of having between £40k - £50k at my disposal which I had planned on spending on flight training - my recent failure is now placing doubts in my mind.

I had planned on going full-on integrated (for which I'd need extra funding) but now I'm thinking perhaps I should slow down, maybe get a PPL (abroad?) to determine if I really do have the aptitude - if so do some hour building and then go down the modular route with one FTO - probably OAT. The benefits of this is that I could do this full time and not require any further funding.

I've read all the posts about age and I appreciate the risks but my opinion is I'm not gonna get a flying job if I continue to work in marketing and you only get one chance at life!

I don't want to start the usual integrated v modular argument as I do understand the pros and cons. What I'm looking for is personal opinions of what you guys would do in similar circumstances.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks
Llen

[Gentle Climb]

Llen

I am in a similar position to you although I am EVEN OLDER by 6 years. I alo work in FS and am bored stupid. So I am going for it. Due to my age, I needed the quickest, most efficient route to FATPL and hopefully the route that would give me the best opportunity at obtaining a job on completion.

I looked at EVERY option. For me the best route is integrated training. I looked at a few options taking this route and have gone for OAT. It isn't particularly clear which (if any) training provider has the best record with the airlines ( I suspect that they are fairly similar and it comes down to the quality of the sudent ) so I looked at what suits best and OAT fitted the bill. I also know a couple of people who have gone through the course who found that the employment help was invaluable and did open some doors that were unavailable with a direct approach.
Modular may very well work for a younger applicant, for me I just felt that it wasn't the way forward. There have been rumours that some companies won't consider modular applicants with 200+ hours but I have no proof of this. The hearsay on PPrune may or may not help you with this.

Best of luck and might see you in Oxford sometime. Got to go, one of my last compliance reports to produce. I won't miss this job at all.

[pilotmike]

Don't forget that in an integrated school, you go at their pace - by choosing modular, you can set your own pace.

I know of an airline pilot who started studying ATPL at the
age of 42.

He passed all 14 exams in under 4 months. 2 more months and he had CPL with night rating and Multi rating, 1 more month for the IR.

It took him just over 8 months from buying the groundschool course to being employable as an airline pilot. Now where can an integrated course achieve that? - and for very little over £20,000.

Now, age 43, just 18 months after deciding to invest the initial £2,000 for ground studies, he has a jet job with an excellent airline.

OK, so he had a head start by having already completed a PPL with the required hours, but these can be gained in 3 or 4 months if you have aptitude and commitment. So it is possible to be a qualified airline pilot, ready to be employed, in just 1 year from starting out.

With hard work and commitment, it is possible to become an airline pilot in just 12 months, for an outlay of under £30,000.

PM

[boogie-nicey]

I agree with PilotMike, there's always more than one way to skin a cat. As time is the main issue here, why not get it all done and dusted as soon as possible? If you feel down after a receiving a dud aptitude results then the culture and atmosphere at somewhere like OAT could really get you downhearted.

Check out all your options and please visit these schools (make a short list) and go see for yourself. Pencil in a weekend and get out there.

Best of luck ....

[Llen]

Thanks guys - a couple of contrasting views there but all helpful stuff.

The more I look into and research my options, the more and more I go round in circles and convince myself that one option is better than the other - only to then change my mind once again. I think you are right boogie-nicey, I need to get out there visiting, look at all the options and decide quickly - time is not on my side!

Gentle Climb, compliance - I totally understand!!! Having been to OAT very recently I was very impressed with all the facilities, professionalism, etc - and yes they do appear to have an immense success rate with placing students (I was quoted 95% find a job within 12 months with 75% of those finding one in 6 months or less). I've not ruled out an integrated course but I am questioing what extra do you really get in comparison to doing the structured modular waypoint course (other than JOC of course) - especially as they say that good modular students also recieve help with job placements. Could I ask why you chose OAT over say Cabair, FTE or WAAC?

pilotmike - wow that is an inspiring example. Other than true grit and determination I guess your friend is a pretty sharp guy given the speed of completing groundschool. I must admit I am leaning towards modular - especially when you see what can be achieved in such a short space of time at a reduced cost.

Many thanks again for your views and advice.

Any more opinions / good advice I can glean from all you PPRuNers?

[Gentle Climb]

Like I said, I don't think that there is a straightforward answer to the question of which is best. It is down to individual preference and circumstance. You have seen above, examples of modular success that is fantastic and I'm sure could be repeated subject to your own abilities. My own preference was governed by what is important to me with my own circumstances. For you it may be different, there isn't a general answer to the mod v Int arguement. You just need to go with what you believe to be the right choice and to be comfortable with it. All of the schools will demonstrate how good they are and integrated schools (inc Oxford) will highlight the number of people who join them on Integrated courses having started on a modular basis. That flow will always be there as people who for what ever reason don't like or aren't managing on a modular basis try the integrated option. I guess there won't be many going the other way for obvious reasons.
I chose OAT because of good reputation, referral from friends who I trust who have been or are currently on the course and and the honest discussion regarding employment at the end of my selection course. A smaller issue is that it is just about commutable so I can save some money and keep MRs GC happy and even do a little bit of work to keep some pennies rolling in. I totally acknowledge the superb example above relating to speed and cost of training but in all honesty, I know that I would not be able to manage that. I have too many distractions with my current business and it simply wouldn't work for me. It may for you though and you really shouldn't discount the option. It could save you a lot of time and money and get you to exactly where I would like to be and I will have a larger mortgage!
Like I say, everyone has different needs. Whichever way you go, you must back yourself that it is the right way. Don't start wonderign about it half way through.

[Philpaz]

In a similar situation myself, I have the funding to go integrated now and have done the OAT seminar and spent months trawling through this site. No where is commutable for me except Multiflight which do there course mainly in the US so its not relevant. Im 29 in a few short months so not got as much time on my side as i'd like. I so know what you mean about running in circles as far as making a decision is concerned, I was all for OAT, then swayed towards Cabair, now after discussing it all with the Mrs (or being told) i'm gonna go modular. This was my preferred method from the start but the thought of laying out all the money and not getting a job was what originally made me think of OAT. Help with employment etc... but from what i read on here day in day out it appears a majority of the students at most FTO's get jobs off their own backs and the FTO's claim Kudos when they hear about it (which they do when the airlines call checking there report). I think the money i'd save by going modular would be even greater because i can still work to an extent so saving more money. I have the self belief to achieve my goals or i wouldn't be doing it in the first place. I will say though i will have to do full time ground school, I'd never manage on my own with that. All in all i think modular is the best route so long as your focussed on your goals and don't get distracted, however, for a simple solution Integrated would be best. Most of the organization side is done on your behalf so you just have to get stuck in to learning and doing your best.
Anyway, I'm boring myself with my rambling, would be good to see which way you go and on your progress though.
Keep posting,

Phil

[monkeyboy]

Guys, I'll keep it brief:

Go integrated if you can afford it, get it over and done with and once you've got your license, target the turboprop operators....don't expect to walk straight into the RHS of a shiny jet.

I spent 10 years in IT before I had a career change. Although I went modular, I worked my way up the ladder in what we call the traditional way....TP, small jet and now medium/heavy jet.

I started commercial flying at the ripe old age of 30 so age is not really an issue if you're realistic about what you want to fly.

Good Luck and enjoy it!

[Llen]

Thanks for all your views - plenty (more) to think about now!!

Any other PPRuNers want to throw their cap into the ring?

[Superpilot]

I wouldn't do an Integrated Course in your situation. That £40-50k you have will cover you nicely for modular training and leave you with decent options should you be required to fund a Type Rating.

If you wish to significantly improve your chances of landing a job with BA or BMI then an Integrated Course is the way, but trust me it'll cost you far more than the quoted £60k.

Also, have you tried the CTC Wings Cadet scheme?

FYI, I started flying at 18, failed BA, Britannia, Atlantic Airways, FlyBE, Oxford/XL airways and CTC Wings Cadet. I think I hold the record for knockbacks

Pass rates for these schemes is something like 1-2% and I doubt Oxford put forward any 30-somethings forward for NetJets so don't in anyway be disheartened! I consider my failings to be blessings (long story).

Now doing modular at the age of 25.

Good luck!

[5150]

All good advice there.

Only thing I'd add to that is get a Class One medical before you splash out on anything else!!

If you're not medically fit to fly, forget it. . .

[Llen]

Many thanks all.

I think I've more or less made my mind up now - I'm gonna go modular. The reason being that if I plan it well enough I can do it all in a similar timeframe and for a lot less cash.

Ok at the end of the training I won't have a job (and perhaps my chances are less than going integrated) but then again I won't owe any money either as the £40k - £50k should be sufficient to cover the whole cost.

Thanks again to all those that have posted - I look forward to posting again.

Llen.

[boogie-nicey]

Good on you Llen, if you need any further help you always know about pprune! Keep it realistic and when you're in the middle of a downer keep your chin up, it'll all come good in the end.

[bri1980]

At long last

It's nice at long last to see a sensible integrated/modular comparison being made by some intelligent, sensible and pragmatic people: as oppoed to the usual 'this is best because it's what I did' debate!

Thanks folks!

[FlyerPhilec]

Hi there

I am in a very similar position - 37 next month and a Chartered Surveyor.

I am going modular for two reasons:-

1) I cannot afford to chunk out £60 plus loss of earnings to get my ATPL with 250 max hours

2) I have spoken with OAT and they acknowledge that the age issue is a concern when a group of Integrated students all graduate at the same time, with another lot coming along in a few weeks, and another lot, and another lot

My modular route will be very hard work but it will allow me to keep working to fund it:-

PPL & Night Rating in December 2007
Hour Building in April 2008
ATPL's completed by July 2008
CPL/IR in Aug/Sept 2008
MCC & A320 TR in January 2009

Total cost (inc. overheads) £38,000

If I feel the need to prostitute myself further (and at 38 I might need to) I will pay for 300 hours of F/O Line Experience (another £20k).

I am hopeful that if I work hard and apply myself, I will put myself in the running for a TurboProp job without the need for the TR but you never know.

I think the important thing is that you follow your dream and it helps to have a supportive family around you. It is also important to keep in touch with other similar types as it can get a bit lonely on this personal quest.

Anyone who wants to email me can do so at [email protected]

Cheers

Phil

[boogie-nicey]

Phil your intentions seem honest enough and you seem to be dealing with things in a realistic manner. Most of what you've mentioned above are variables for consideration but they're NOT necessarily a bar. If you wish to just complete the basic fATPL then you'll find it hard going and you'll almost certainly need to some form of post training options. A Flight instructors rating might be of interest though the numerous students go onto complete a Type Rating and others still head for Line Experience (maybe even work aboard eventually - who said it was confined to the UK, this aviation after all). Each has it's merits which must be measured against the individuals cicurmstances. However two things I will say for sure... time is of the essence and if avaiation doesn't want you then you need to find out as soon as possible so that you can go and do something else in life and not waste the rest of years chasing 'a point on horizon'. At the end you can at least satisy yourself with the knowledge that did everything and it just wasn't meant to be.

Also be wary of setting things in stone as market conditions, trends and requirements change shape like an ocean's surface so you'll need to continously need to reassess your training aims throughout.

Now go research and talk to people, be realistic and go somewhere you're happy and not because everyone else goes there or the marketing people said so. Everyone can smile that's just common courtesy and not some kind seal of approval. Plan your finances, get the family on board and explain things honestly then get going!

Good luck

[shaun ryder]

Alot of airlines are overcrewed at the moment, the low cost market is also starting to feel the pinch.

News from the inside!

[FlyerPhilec]

I also think it is important to keep one eye on the market but not to let the market lead you into a rash decision as you will inevitably get your fingers burnt.

I cancelled an integrated course shorty after 9/11 and, at the time it seemed sensible but it turned out to be one of the biggest mistakes of my life as I invested the money I had set aside in a business, which crashed and burned and it has taken me a further 5 years to get myself into this position again.

I sound like the voice of authority but I am not - I am just well researched.

In my view, the other benefit of modular is that it leaves a bit of spare cash left over just in case you need to pay for a TR. If you spend £80k on integrated, an additional £20k for a TR (you might not need this but you never know) might be beyond your means.

I am lucky in that my decision has been made for me as I am an old bugger who will need a TR and probably some line experience just to be in a position to compete. I have just spent a week on a risk management course so I know:-

a) that you should always try to minimise risk and the effects of luck
b) that I don't want to spend anymore weeks on risk management courses, or equality and diversity training or 3 hours meetings to discuss the agenda for next weeks five hour meeting

This is all probably more helpful to assure myself rather than for anyone reading this so apologies...and thanks.

Phil