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Dodgy or legit?

Old 26th Apr 2017, 10:24
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I think the UK's legislation (and guidance) on cost sharing is pretty clear-cut... Not sure where people are seeing this "grey-area" that they think they are exploiting...

Cost-Sharing is only there, so that pilots can legally share the cost of flights with friends and family. It isn't to allow low time PPLs to offer air-taxi or airline like services [period]. The main reason behind the motivation for the UK CAA to allow the advertising of flights, I believe, is purely due to the modern age where friends on websites such as Facebook, and places like this forum offering "spare" seats, along with club-house noticeboards offering spare seats. Which in law could be construed as "advertising a flight", leaving the pilot liable to prosecution. I believe officials quite rightly realised that this was probably not the wisest idea, hence the recent change. With regards to the splitting of costs, this is most certainly because there is no way of checking the splitting was of equal measures, it also on occasions make sense, for instance if one of your family members paid for your flight training (I have seen a few lucky 18yo with parents paying their entire tuition) - taking them for a flight after passing their PPL and said family member paying for most of the flight must be quite common.

With regards to safety, inexperience and pilot error is probably the single most common killer in aviation. This does not mean that a pilot with say 100hrs TT is necessarily any less safe than one with 500hrs TT, this would highly depend on their training, and personal capabilities. I have flown with pilots who had no more than 100hrs TT who flew surprisingly well, and with 5000+hrs TT who flew particularly, and noticeably badly.

Anyway - I hope this person closes his account / alters his page. Otherwise it will be a career ender, before it has even started!
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Old 26th Apr 2017, 18:12
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'Clearly a fool'. Whatever the grey areas might be (FWIW I'll be steering well clear) offering what he himself calls 'Air Taxi' as a PPL (let alone a 65 hour one) certainly isn't grey.

Bizarre really. He must have studied enough Air Law to get through his PPL and this gets drummed into you as a 'Thou Shalt Not'.

So either...

1. He wasn't taught it, in which case what else wasn't he taught that he might need to know

2. He was taught it and forgot it (at 65 hours one would hope it would be fresher in the mind), in which case what else has he forgotten

3. He was taught it and remembers it, but believes it doesn't apply to him, in which case what other laws in aviation don't apply to him ? (Gravity ? Darwin ?)
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Old 26th Apr 2017, 18:29
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The concept seems to now be reaching the mass media rather than just an aviation-centric audience. Yes, I know some people have strongly held opinions about Simon Calder, but he does seem to be able to communicate to a wide audience in the UK

Wingly: Testing the Airbnb of aviation | The Independent
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Old 26th Apr 2017, 20:51
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I reported the wingly page in question, via their "Contact Us" form, stating that advertising an Air Taxi Service without either CPL or AOC was clearly not legal.

Interestingly, the Air Taxi Service bit has now gone. Coincidence?

FBW
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Old 26th Apr 2017, 21:30
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Coincidence?
Or maybe he reads this forum and thought "shit - that's my dream career gone down the drain!" and removed it as quickly as he could?
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 00:09
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Now he just needs to get rid of the bit adverstising sightseeing tours...... WHich also requires an AOC.....

I hope the kid learns a lesson from this, I don't want to see somebody so young ruining a career over something so naive so early.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 07:27
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Standby one. Whilst I agree the semantics around this do shift the activity from darkness to light let's look at the practicalities of this.

The physical act of taking someone flying requires the pilot to have a pilots licence. That licence and associated ratings will require differing levels of experience and qualification tested by a course and exam. So why does the marketing suddenly make a flight more or less dangerous?

He was very clear about his experience, about his rational/intent for the future and I can not imagine anyone seeking a flight climbing on board under a false impression it was a British Airways entity (for example).

So what but are we really complaining about? The noise around this aspect of regulation change is insanity and does it take food from the mouths of AOC holders any less than the hundreds of FI's at flying schools up and down the land offering "experience flights".

Whatever happened to the old "gold plate" phrase?
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 07:56
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So what but are we really complaining about? The noise around this aspect of regulation change is insanity and does it take food from the mouths of AOC holders any less than the hundreds of FI's at flying schools up and down the land offering "experience flights".
As far as I read it the noise isn't about experience flights around the local area or FIs. Problem is once you introduce an element of getting from A to B into aviation, for whatever reason, no matter casual the "contract" the pressure to get the job done gets ramped up as anyone who holds an AOC or works for an AOC holder knows. The grumbles about wingly are about the fact that it seems with the use of a bit of creative use of language and this website very newly minted non IR PPLs can offer up their services effectively as providing an air taxi service, the potentially lethal consequences of which have been covered by previous posters.

Sadly apart from the odd hint that getting to planned destination might not be possible there's hardly a hint of scepticism or a health warning in Simon Calder's article.

Last edited by wiggy; 27th Apr 2017 at 08:07.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 09:35
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
As far as I read it the noise isn't about experience flights around the local area or FIs. Problem is once you introduce an element of getting from A to B into aviation, for whatever reason, no matter casual the "contract" the pressure to get the job done gets ramped up as anyone who holds an AOC or works for an AOC holder knows. The grumbles about wingly are about the fact that it seems with the use of a bit of creative use of language and this website very newly minted non IR PPLs can offer up their services effectively as providing an air taxi service, the potentially lethal consequences of which have been covered by previous posters.

Sadly apart from the odd hint that getting to planned destination might not be possible there's hardly a hint of scepticism or a health warning in Simon Calder's article.
As I asked in an earlier post: what's the difference between offering a flight on Wingly and advertising a spare seat in the thread on this forum?
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 09:59
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This is certainly going to affect a few AOC holders - there will be CPL payoffs.

There is now no point in having an AOC - OPCs/LPCs, insurance, audits, aircraft on commercial maintenance programs, CAA AOC fees, Class 1 medicals, paying CPLs etc etc.

From long experience I can tell you that the public don't read 1% of what's on a website including Ts&Cs etc - they will see "57 to location X" and almost nothing more certainly no caveats and restrictions - many PPLs are in for a serious shock when dealing with many of their passengers. Even seasoned, highly experienced, long in the tooth charter pilots will tell you that dealing with pax pressure is the hardest part of the job and the biggest issue Chief Pilots worry about with young, new CPLs

Permit to fly, PPL and 63 hours and your good to go - aviation hits a new high !

PS, good luck with your own personal "tripadvisor" page
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 10:10
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Sadly apart from the odd hint that getting to planned destination might not be possible there's hardly a hint of scepticism or a health warning in Simon Calder's article.
Whilst there may not be a warning in the article, to get onboard and book a Wingly flight, you have to read all of their terms and conditions, which does include that there is an aspect of risk, and that if the pilot says we're not going, whether due to weather, or ANY other reason, then that decision is FINAL and the 'customer' gets their money back.

Whilst advertising an Air Taxi sort of system is completely illegal, I cannot see anything wrong with taking someone up for a sightseeing flight who wants to go. Or, even, if I have planned that I'm going to fly up to Leicester to visit family on this day at this time, I can advertise that and offer, for a contribution to the cost, the spare seat I will have. This isn't a taxi service, it's just sharing a flight, like you may share your car.

As Jonzarno says, it's no different to offering a flight on here. There is a certain contributor on this thread who has very kindly offered me a flight with them so I can continue to learn. I've told them I am a low hour PPL holder (which I am), but they have no physical proof of this, I could be a lunatic (if you're reading this, I'm not ).
I took an ex-colleague up a while ago, never really knew him outside of work, and hadn't seen him for about a year, but after I posted on Facebook that I'm going for a quick trip around the local area, and if anyone wants to join me, they can pay 50% and I'll take them up, he wanted to. I explained all that was going to happen, and that there is a chance we'd get to the airfield and I'd call it off due to bad WX. He knew this, and he still came with me. It just so happened that after about 40 minutes, some unpredictable worsening visibility caused me to make the decision to cut the flight short. He understood as he didn't want his safety put at risk.

I think most potential passengers have enough of a strong self preservation instinct to know that if their pilot says 'we're not going, it's unsafe', they will accept this without any arguing.

And, GBS, you are reminded of the main points of the T's and C's during every phase of 'booking' your flight. Charter pilots have to deal with PAX pressure because they are operating a business, and the customer has paid for a flight (often many hundreds, if not thousands, of pounds) to get to a location, like a meeting or something. A Wingly pilot does not have to do this, they say they're going somewhere, on condition of the weather being good, the A/C being serviceable etc etc, and IF someone wants to join them, then for a CONTRIBUTION (pilot not making money), then they can.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 10:23
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what's the difference between offering a flight on Wingly and advertising a spare seat in the thread on this forum?
Big difference, IMHO..

If you offer a seat on this forum I'd think anyone replying would be to some extent an "aviation person", total or other wise, and be aware of weather limitations, what is practical, what is not, and because of that are probably not going to "kick off" if the agreed flight doesn't happen.

OTOH if you stick the same offer out on an App that goes out to the whole world you are now "advertising" to all an sundry, many of whom who certainly won't know and won't be interested in VFR, icing etc, but they will know that you're "agreed" to take them flying ( and perhaps in their minds you have "agreed" to get them somewhere).

Good Business sense make a very valid point about "pax pressure" (and also about people not reading T&Cs), and having interacted with paying pax during delays to scheduled ops I wouldn't always rely on their sense of self preservation kicking in and somehow turning them into reasonable individuals if they've got a meeting/wedding to get to. I'm sure the old and not bold pilots here will probably be able to deal with it but the less mature, less experienced PPL????

Last edited by wiggy; 27th Apr 2017 at 11:58.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 10:32
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I'm sure the old and not bold pilots here will probably be able to deal with but the less mature, less experienced PPL????
To some extent, I do kind of agree, but I think this is underestimating many young pilots out there. I know that I wouldn't offer certain flights (even if the weather was impeccable), purely because I know my limitations and what I'm comfortable with. i.e, I wouldn't offer flights out if I was flying somewhere new for the first time etc.

I also believe that many of us are capable of making command decisions, and sticking to them. At the end of the day, someone I'd never met before is very, very, very unlikely to be able to influence a decision I made (when I say unlikely, if they threatened me or something, then perhaps I'd be persuaded - as most would, but any other reason, my decision is final). If I say no, what is the worst that will happen, they'll have a rant at me, perhaps? I'll simply get in my car and Foxtrot Oscar, never see them again and put it in the past.

I appreciate there will be some young pilots out there who don't have my strong will, but I firmly believe the majority do.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 10:45
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TBF I can see the value of wingly if it is used for "advertising" seats on flights around the local area, or on cross country flights where it is made utterly clear by the PIC prior at the time of booking and again pre-departure that there's a "maybe" factor.

I do however have problems with the concept as described by Simon Calder, i.e. an app that: "...aims to connect aviators with amateurs like me who need to get from A to B but have some flexibility about where A and B happen to be, and can work around the pilot’s timing. For the passenger it promises an exhilarating experience along with transportation."

My emphasis on both "need" and "transportation".......

( phraseology is not Wingly's doing, I accept that, but I think SC's wording is a bit unfortunate).

Last edited by wiggy; 27th Apr 2017 at 11:16.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 11:00
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Ah yes, I see what you mean. Should be
"aims to connect aviators with amateurs like me who would quite like to get from A to B, or even just up for a sightseeing trip, but have some flexibility about where A and B happen to be, and can work around the pilot’s timing. For the passenger it promises an exhilarating experience along with a great experience, as long as the weather permits and the pilot is happy to undertake the trip on the day."
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 11:14
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Agreed, (and sorry if it sound like I'm picking nits....).
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 11:19
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Agreed, (and sorry if it sound like I'm picking nits....).
Not at all Nothing wrong with a healthy discussion on a thread like this, I just think some certain people are looking into this with either too much of an 'old fashioned, and I know best' attitude, or the 'This will happen, then this, then people will crash, everything will go wrong and North Korea will launch their nukes.....' type negative attitude.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 11:37
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Originally Posted by tobster911 View Post
Whilst there may not be a warning in the article, to get onboard and book a Wingly flight, you have to read all of their terms and conditions, which does include that there is an aspect of risk, and that if the pilot says we're not going, whether due to weather, or ANY other reason, then that decision is FINAL and the 'customer' gets their money back.

Whilst advertising an Air Taxi sort of system is completely illegal, I cannot see anything wrong with taking someone up for a sightseeing flight who wants to go. Or, even, if I have planned that I'm going to fly up to Leicester to visit family on this day at this time, I can advertise that and offer, for a contribution to the cost, the spare seat I will have. This isn't a taxi service, it's just sharing a flight, like you may share your car.

As Jonzarno says, it's no different to offering a flight on here. There is a certain contributor on this thread who has very kindly offered me a flight with them so I can continue to learn. I've told them I am a low hour PPL holder (which I am), but they have no physical proof of this, I could be a lunatic (if you're reading this, I'm not ).
I took an ex-colleague up a while ago, never really knew him outside of work, and hadn't seen him for about a year, but after I posted on Facebook that I'm going for a quick trip around the local area, and if anyone wants to join me, they can pay 50% and I'll take them up, he wanted to. I explained all that was going to happen, and that there is a chance we'd get to the airfield and I'd call it off due to bad WX. He knew this, and he still came with me. It just so happened that after about 40 minutes, some unpredictable worsening visibility caused me to make the decision to cut the flight short. He understood as he didn't want his safety put at risk.

I think most potential passengers have enough of a strong self preservation instinct to know that if their pilot says 'we're not going, it's unsafe', they will accept this without any arguing.
i'm afraid you are wrong about passengers and self preservation and you completely underestimate what the public's approach to this will be - for most, as far as they are concerned, they paid 57 to get x and that's what they want come hell or high water. Again from experience, which of course is an ugly word these days, passengers will not read the Ts&Cs and will click any box you like to acknowledge caveats.

Yes I'm one of the old guys you elude to later - 39 years off and on in charter flying and last week I had passngers arguing with me when I said no.

You only have to see how many corporate accidents there are eachyear and that's with CEOs of world wide companies pushing hard to"go"

Good luck
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 12:19
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I think this will sort itslef out.

I would expect schools to start restricting any Wingly activity when hiring aircraft. Groups to start restricting it in their T&C's and when the only people that can do this are those who own aircraft outright. The take up will be so small it won't be worth doing.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 12:53
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Tobster911
I also believe that many of us are capable of making command decisions, and sticking to them. At the end of the day, someone I'd never met before is very, very, very unlikely to be able to influence a decision I made (when I say unlikely, if they threatened me or something, then perhaps I'd be persuaded - as most would, but any other reason, my decision is final).
You've kind of shot yourself in the foot there haven't you..... Alas

(read this to the end, it is going somewhere)

This is a very interesting thing for me, because, I am a very pro Uber person, having been in Brazil for the past 7 years, Uber was an absolute revolution in transforming a hideously unreliable and expensive taxi and private hire industry up to scratch, Uber now offers a ride that turns up in 5 minutes, in a clean and comfortable vehicle, with a polite and knowledgeable driver, all of whom, in the 2 years that I have used the service regularly, have driven safely and legally, there was a lot of resistance at first from the professional taxi driver up to and including lynchings and kidnappings. Fortunately, the Profissional and old guard of the taxi industry in Brazil have realised that they either need to up their taxi game, or join Uber.... This has worked well. Uber drivers are also watched like hawks by Uber, the last time I spoke to a driver, they were struck uf the app if their rating was below 4.7.... which means they need 19 out of twenty journies to gain a 5 star ranking.....

So, How would a ranking system work on Wingly? Passengers only ever think in Binary on flights... 0 or 5.

Why is wingly necessary? How are they going to improve on safety and courtesy in what is essentially the world most regulated market and workplace?

One of biggest problems that Uber drivers face is drunks, or people having a beer in the car........ Aviation has this problem too.... I guess passengers on a vfr Jaunt can drink, I'm sure it isn't stipulated in law.... Just that most airfields have a bar...... Off-licences sell cans too..... Would you feel confortable with 65 hours, diverting if a "guest" cracks open a bottle and is angry with you that you said no..... Would you back down and just continue and watch him get drunk with the stick in front of him? What if he wants a line of cocaine? We are talking about the general public here... not about other pilots or people that we know and trust.

Unfortunately, it only really seems to be a conduit in which many PPLs are seeing a cheaper way or a shortcut towards hour building.

Finally, I am not against cost sharing, but, surely as confident, young ppls, you must have enough friends, colleauges, family and people that you actually know that would love to have a fly out with you.

The idea of wingly, I believe was honest, but the application seems really poor..... Gash even.
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