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Dodgy or legit?

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Old 7th Dec 2017, 10:39
  #241 (permalink)  
 
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There is a guy in Norfolk that advertises on facebook for passengers to go flying.

I would be furious if I had a genuine business providing air taxi or scenic flights and had gone though all the hoops to be legit.
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 12:51
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fill in form CA393 and see if the caa can do anything
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 13:47
  #243 (permalink)  
 
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Had a look at the website and can see some really low-time pilots with few hours after the PPL/LAPL course. Looks like they are using it for 'free' flying or hours building.

It is probably just legal, but....
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 14:29
  #244 (permalink)  
 
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It is probably just legal, but....
This discussion seems to be going round the same old arguments again and again. Wingly, and the other ride sharing sites, are simply a medium through which people can arrange to share flights and, so long as those flights themselves are legal, there is nothing wrong with that.

To be clear, as a matter of law:

1. Genuine cost sharing as defined by both the CAA and EASA (but not the FAA, who accept cost sharing but not these websites) is completely legitimate regardless of the medium by which it is arranged. For that reason, I see no reason for any airfield to ban genuine cost sharing flights of this type.

2. Running a taxi or other commercial service without the necessary licence and insurance is not legal, again regardless of how it was arranged; and if I was running an airfield, I’d ban flights of that type as well.

I honestly don’t understand why it is necessary, or even desirable, to try to ban all genuine cost sharing just because some people abuse the system. You might as well ban all cross-border GA flights because some people use them to smuggle in drugs. Surely the answer is to target the abusers and not the genuine cost sharers?

Edit: as I said in an earlier post, there is also no reason why the authorities can not also take action agains a site such as Wingly if they knowingly facilitate illegal activity.

BTW:I have no personal dog in this fight, because I have an FAA licence and therefore can’t use these sites myself. If I could, I would happily do so. Legally!
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 21:20
  #245 (permalink)  
 
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I'm neutral on the debate, FWIW I wouldn't do it but I'm not dependent on someone paying for me to go flying.

However, I struggle with the advertised flight referred to above from Redhill.

Pilot is PPL with total hours of 73, prepared to fly at 500 feet - presumably above sea level - for stunning views of Beachy Head.

I read further and see he has 'travelled across the Channel a fair few times'.

At 73 hours ... How ??? Something can't be right ?

Surely even the densest member of Joe Public might be suspicious of entrusting themselves to a 73 hour PPL ? Darwin waiting to work ?
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Old 8th Dec 2017, 16:54
  #246 (permalink)  
 
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Pilot is PPL with total hours of 73, prepared to fly at 500 feet - presumably above sea level - for stunning views of Beachy Head.
500 ft above sea level? I hope not: Beachy Head is 531 ft AMSL. You might get a more “stunning” view than you expected.......

Last edited by Jonzarno; 9th Dec 2017 at 07:50.
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Old 16th Dec 2017, 08:30
  #247 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jonzarno View Post
Yes, but listing a flight doesnít generate income. That said, if the business does cross the VAT threshold Iíd be very surprised if they didnít comply. The consequences of failing to do so are quite unpleasant!

BTW Iím not sure but arenít they a German company? The Finanzamt there are even worse than HMRC!
French, Headquartered in Paris.
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Old 20th Dec 2017, 13:49
  #248 (permalink)  
 
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Ruling from EU about UBER

In its ruling, the ECJ said an “intermediation service”, “the purpose of which is to connect, by means of a smartphone application and for remuneration, non-professional drivers using their own vehicle with persons who wish to make urban journeys, must be regarded as being inherently linked to a transport service and, accordingly, must be classified as ‘a service in the field of transport’ within the meaning of EU law”.
Going to be interesting how this affects Wingly et all - I'm referring to, "Wingly et all" not "cost sharing"

Last edited by Good Business Sense; 20th Dec 2017 at 14:05.
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Old 21st Dec 2017, 16:50
  #249 (permalink)  
 
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Uber has been deemed a ‘transport service’ by the European Court of Justice and not, as it previously argued, a digital service – a move that could have big implications for the way the company operates.The ride hailing company has previously argued it merely provides a digital service to connect passengers and drivers and so is not, in the classical sense, a transport company. But EU judges disagreed, ruling that Uber’s “main component is a transport service”.

Sounds familiar, any groans from the cheap seats?

Last edited by memories of px; 21st Dec 2017 at 20:28.
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Old 21st Dec 2017, 17:40
  #250 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by memories of px View Post
so much for the "this has run its course" brigade... watch this space
Groan......

Dodgy or legit?
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Old 21st Dec 2017, 19:03
  #251 (permalink)  
 
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Wingly sells flight tickets to the public for flights with non professional pilots using their own vehicle - after the flight Wingly pays the pilot after deducting a fee

The above is almost word for word to that in the judgement against Uber.

In addition, Wingly sells GIFT VOUCHERS to the public for flights with yet to be identified non professional pilots. The Gift voucher is sold to person X who gives it to person Y for a flight with pilot A - person Y has to that point probably never even thought of taking a flight in a light aircraft never mind "cost sharing".

My insurer says that due to the transactions taking place they believe it is a commercial flight. Forget cost sharing - this is about Wingly which is a profit making commercial enterprise who makes money, using private pilots, from selling flight tickets to the public.

I see 6 seat aircraft are now demanding a premium - saw a Wingly flight being advertised on a Cherokee six that was charging the equivalent of over £400 per hour - I don't know the six but .....
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Old 21st Dec 2017, 20:30
  #252 (permalink)  
 
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well said GBS.
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Old 21st Dec 2017, 21:38
  #253 (permalink)  
 
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@GBS

If some of the things you allege are happening, then I agree they are over the line.

As I have said repeatedly:

1. If people abuse a ride sharing site by offering illegal commercial flights, they should be prosecuted.

2. If the site itself knowingly facilitates such illegal activity, it should itself be prosecuted.


However that is very far from being grounds for banning a legitimate mechanism for the sharing of genuine cost sharing flights.

Do you agree with that, or do you want to ban all flights including genuine cost sharing arranged on one of these sites, or indeed by any other mechanism?


@MPX

Have you heard anything back from the CAA about the CA 393 complaint you said you had made?
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Old 22nd Dec 2017, 12:48
  #254 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Good Business Sense View Post
Wingly sells flight tickets to the public for flights with non professional pilots using their own vehicle - after the flight Wingly pays the pilot after deducting a fee

The above is almost word for word to that in the judgement against Uber.
I wouldn't get too excited, GBS. The judgement is that Uber "must be classified as Ďa service in the field of transportí within the meaning of Article 58(1) TFEU". Article 58 merely refers us to Title VI, whose final Article says:

Article 100
1. The provisions of this Title shall apply to transport by rail, road and inland waterway.
2. The European Parliament and the Council, acting in accordance with the ordinary legislative procedure, may lay down appropriate provisions for sea and air transport. They shall act after consulting the Economic and Social Committee and the Committee of the Regions.


The European Parliament and the Council have done just that for air transport in the form of 216/2008 (the Basic Regulation), and the machinery that sits beneath has provided the legislative basis for the legitimate operation of flight sharing via internet platforms.
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