Dodgy or legit?
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Yes I built my experience with passengers who shared the cost on my plane. i think I have more experience. My flight school is more than happy with me renting planes out with Wingly, as I can fly much more as well.
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Well you are not the CAA or the EASA who have agreed to let me hare cost no matter what flight I choose to do. I know there are quite a few CPLs registered on wingly who are also flying at cost price just to share the joy of flying and save on costs when building hours on Multi Propeller planes.
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Can I ask those who are so critical of these cost sharing matching services how many Wingly / Skyuber flights have you personally done? What problems did you actually have?
Whilst all the dire consequences you describe are theoretically possible: can you quote a single instance where such a problem has actually happened in all the hundreds, or maybe even thousands, of cost share flights that have been done?
As I indicated in my earlier post: I have done several of these flights, stopping only when the FAA proscribed them, and never had the slightest problem.
Yet again: cost sharing flights are entirely legal and, in CAA and EASA land at least, the mechanism by which they are arranged is irrelevant.
Does that guarantee that nothing will ever go wrong on a cost share flight? No. But given that they are legal, ordinary pilot insurance will apply and, as I said above, how many such accidents have there been so far?
Does it guarantee that a pilot won't do something stupid? No. But the same pilot might make the same stupid mistake with a passenger who is not paying a share of the costs.
Does it guarantee that a rider won't have an unrealistic expectation of being able to fly regardless of conditions? No. But I described how I used to deal with this in my earlier post. I never had a problem with the flights I cancelled including when my plans changed even though the weather was fine to fly in.
Does it guarantee that someone won't try to abuse the rules and offer a taxi service? No. But if they do they should be dealt with by the authorities exactly as if they had put an ad offering an air taxi service in the Sunday Times or broken any other aviation rule.
In summary: these cost sharing services are legal, there is no great history of the kinds of problems suggested in earlier posts but those feeling uncomfortable with them are free not to use them.
Whilst all the dire consequences you describe are theoretically possible: can you quote a single instance where such a problem has actually happened in all the hundreds, or maybe even thousands, of cost share flights that have been done?
As I indicated in my earlier post: I have done several of these flights, stopping only when the FAA proscribed them, and never had the slightest problem.
Yet again: cost sharing flights are entirely legal and, in CAA and EASA land at least, the mechanism by which they are arranged is irrelevant.
Does that guarantee that nothing will ever go wrong on a cost share flight? No. But given that they are legal, ordinary pilot insurance will apply and, as I said above, how many such accidents have there been so far?
Does it guarantee that a pilot won't do something stupid? No. But the same pilot might make the same stupid mistake with a passenger who is not paying a share of the costs.
Does it guarantee that a rider won't have an unrealistic expectation of being able to fly regardless of conditions? No. But I described how I used to deal with this in my earlier post. I never had a problem with the flights I cancelled including when my plans changed even though the weather was fine to fly in.
Does it guarantee that someone won't try to abuse the rules and offer a taxi service? No. But if they do they should be dealt with by the authorities exactly as if they had put an ad offering an air taxi service in the Sunday Times or broken any other aviation rule.
In summary: these cost sharing services are legal, there is no great history of the kinds of problems suggested in earlier posts but those feeling uncomfortable with them are free not to use them.
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Being a CPL with my own aircraft why would I? If any of my friends or family told me they were flying via this site though, I would try my best to put them off. Especially if it was with a low houred PPL.
Hours alone however are not a good enough way to measure, it's recency that counts. I would not like the idea of anyone I know flying with someone that has done the minimum hours and what is to stop that happening?
How much checking of recency and hours does Wingly do? When you pay for an air taxi or experience flight via a school you know that the pilot is in currency and proficient to carry out that flight.
Yes, cost sharing is legal but that is based on a flight that is being carried out anyway with an empty seat. The adverts on Wingly are clearly offering a service to suit the passenger and, as has been alluded to above, flights are being carried out that wouldn't otherwise be. The fact that the pilot and hiring organisation are making money is not a positive in wingly's favour but all the more reason why these flights are probably illegal.
Hours alone however are not a good enough way to measure, it's recency that counts. I would not like the idea of anyone I know flying with someone that has done the minimum hours and what is to stop that happening?
How much checking of recency and hours does Wingly do? When you pay for an air taxi or experience flight via a school you know that the pilot is in currency and proficient to carry out that flight.
Yes, cost sharing is legal but that is based on a flight that is being carried out anyway with an empty seat. The adverts on Wingly are clearly offering a service to suit the passenger and, as has been alluded to above, flights are being carried out that wouldn't otherwise be. The fact that the pilot and hiring organisation are making money is not a positive in wingly's favour but all the more reason why these flights are probably illegal.
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The adverts on Wingly are clearly offering a service to suit the passenger
Cessna Steven
I thin flying clubs don't consider experience flights a major source of revenue, Even you must be fooling your self if that is the case.
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OK, here goes:
Trial flying lessons are a major source of income for any flying school - even if they are marginal business, they can be substantial profit after the fixed costs have been paid.
Flying schools that rent out their aircraft so as pilots can undercut/take cash from their business are losing vital business. And if a flying school isn't making money on trial flying lessons, why is it doing them?
Interestingly, all three operators in Scotland are renting their aircraft from somewhere. Although it seems that the one renting from Tayside isn't anymore!
If anyone at the airfield I own decides to go down this route, I think we may be renegotiating the airfield lease and the hangarage terms and conditions.
Although........
Perhaps this will, instead, just become another way for flying schools to advertise trial flying lessons. Just like air b'n'b seems to be becoming just another way for traditional bed and breakfasts to advertise?
Trial flying lessons are a major source of income for any flying school - even if they are marginal business, they can be substantial profit after the fixed costs have been paid.
Flying schools that rent out their aircraft so as pilots can undercut/take cash from their business are losing vital business. And if a flying school isn't making money on trial flying lessons, why is it doing them?
Interestingly, all three operators in Scotland are renting their aircraft from somewhere. Although it seems that the one renting from Tayside isn't anymore!
If anyone at the airfield I own decides to go down this route, I think we may be renegotiating the airfield lease and the hangarage terms and conditions.
Although........
Perhaps this will, instead, just become another way for flying schools to advertise trial flying lessons. Just like air b'n'b seems to be becoming just another way for traditional bed and breakfasts to advertise?
Cessna Steven
Every profile that flies on wingly can be asked to verify themselves if they don't verify themselves by sending their passport
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Perhaps this will, instead, just become another way for flying schools to advertise trial flying lessons
The ONLY thing a private pilot can legally use Wingly or Skyuber for is to advertise a genuine cost sharing flight that they are already planning to do. If they cross that line, they can and should be done for it.
Couldn't agree more xrayalpha
Flying schools that rent out their aircraft so as pilots can undercut/take cash from their business are losing vital business. And if a flying school isn't making money on trial flying lessons, why is it doing them?
Having looked at the number of pilots signed up to wingly together with 73k likes on Facebook and the recent media exposure, if allowed to continue, this will fundamentally change the chances of getting a job as a pilot - PPLs hour building for professional licenses will find that getting that first job has just got a lot harder.
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There is going to be an interesting Vib in flying clubs all over the Uk soon with PPLs walking out with their wingly pax and instructors earning nothing nor building hours because the experience flights/trial lessons have dried up.
It's hard to see this killing off the Flight Experience market, especially as the biggest payoff from those flight school experience flights is people signing up with the school to do a PPL.
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I think that is overdoing it a bit. Certainly when I have looked at the Skyuber flights being offered, there aren't more than half a dozen or so, and almost all of them are from X to Y on a specific date.
It's hard to see this killing off the Flight Experience market, especially as the biggest payoff from those flight school experience flights is people signing up with the school to do a PPL.
It's hard to see this killing off the Flight Experience market, especially as the biggest payoff from those flight school experience flights is people signing up with the school to do a PPL.
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(It also begs the question: how many people would sign up if they did do them for free??)
Last edited by Jonzarno; 27th Apr 2017 at 20:59. Reason: Typo
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That's you..... Me too..... But I did an experience flight with a 95% conviction that I wished too become a pilot. The demographic of most voucher fliers is very different... Normally a male, aged 35 to 50, with a stable career and family background
Avoid imitations
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As a private car owner/driver I'm allowed to "car share". However, I'm not allowed to advertise my "services" and would need to be very careful about not contravening the terms and conditions of my insurance. I wonder who insures these "Wingly Warriors" and what happens in the aftermath of an accident.
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I'm not denying that it happens, however, the demographic here is clearly going to have many more PPLs due to a voucher than the national average.
I have had vouchers for
-track days... I am not an advanced driver
-hairstyling - I am not keen on becoming a hairdresser (i recommend this for all fathers)
-Somellier day .....
I could go on
I have had vouchers for
-track days... I am not an advanced driver
-hairstyling - I am not keen on becoming a hairdresser (i recommend this for all fathers)
-Somellier day .....
I could go on
Jonzarno
biggest payoff from those flight school experience flights is people signing up with the school to do a PPL.
and, of course, that is where wingly will do very well, thank you very much !!! They'll pocket the service charge AND the money on unused gifts. Of course, pre wingly, the flying club would have benefited in this way .... generally, to GAs benefit too.
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As a private car owner/driver I'm allowed to "car share". However, I'm not allowed to advertise my "services" and would need to be very careful about not contravening the terms and conditions of my insurance. I wonder who insures these "Wingly Warriors" and what happens in the aftermath of an accident.
Is a friend from the flying club OK? (If I meet someone from my flying club in the bar and we agree to fly to L2K together and share the costs, why is that different from the same friend seeing that I'm planning to do the flight on Wingly and deciding to join me?).
A non pilot friend?
A friend of a non pilot friend?
Someone you meet at the pub?
Someone who answers a Wingly or Skyuber post?
As things stand, all of the above are OK PROVIDED:
1. The pilot was going to a destination anyway and all those cost sharing are just "along for the ride".
2. The costs are shared according to CAA / EASA rules
Most of the criticisms of this are based on the possibility that someone MIGHT break the rules. Well, if they do, they should be hauled over the coals for doing so.
But if they have followed the rules, which are quite clear, there should not be any problem.