Renting Cirrus insurance requirements ???
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Most people fly the Cirrus VFR and for his the basic tools are the ASI, compass and looking out of the window.
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007
So are you telling me that you can't switch the screens to a basic compass rose or arc ?
I find this all a little confusing being as one of the Cirrus aircraft we maintain has a basic six pack in front tof the pilot and one Avadine screen, on that aircraft you have no choice but to fly in basic HSI mode albeit with a big map on the screen to the right of the primary instruments.
It would seem to me that far from me not knowing much about Cirrus Avionic systems you might not have seen the range of Avionic fits avalable.
As for ASI & Compass these are the basic tools of navigation if you dont have an idea of your heading what are you going to do when the magenta line fails? Clearly without the basic knowlage you have no plan two.
May be we should take all the standby instruments out of your aircraft and rely on the chute if you have a major Avionic failure..........come to think of it the insurers may already be thinking things are going along those lines with the red handle being seen as the first option when plan one is thwarted by circumstance.
Could it be that the insurers are ahead of us on this one with the training requirements and sky high premiums being a reflection of the mind set of the AVERAGE Cirrus pilot ????
I find this all a little confusing being as one of the Cirrus aircraft we maintain has a basic six pack in front tof the pilot and one Avadine screen, on that aircraft you have no choice but to fly in basic HSI mode albeit with a big map on the screen to the right of the primary instruments.
It would seem to me that far from me not knowing much about Cirrus Avionic systems you might not have seen the range of Avionic fits avalable.
As for ASI & Compass these are the basic tools of navigation if you dont have an idea of your heading what are you going to do when the magenta line fails? Clearly without the basic knowlage you have no plan two.
May be we should take all the standby instruments out of your aircraft and rely on the chute if you have a major Avionic failure..........come to think of it the insurers may already be thinking things are going along those lines with the red handle being seen as the first option when plan one is thwarted by circumstance.
Could it be that the insurers are ahead of us on this one with the training requirements and sky high premiums being a reflection of the mind set of the AVERAGE Cirrus pilot ????
Last edited by A and C; 15th Jul 2012 at 07:27.
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As I have said on a few occasions to fuji excuse my posting style a lot is to generate discussion and for effect
Do I think 10 Hrs with an instructor is too much YES! its crazy!
I have to look at the best deal to achieve what I want with my money! If it works out that I have to sit with an instructor for 10 hours so be it maybe take him on a long trip to the south of france and back
Who knows maybe I will be so bad with the aircraft I will need it?
But this discussion is not so much about me moaning at having to spend 1/3 of the time I want to purchase on a Cirrus with an instructor but why an aircraft with so many safety features requires such high insurance levels?
You would have thought it would be the other way around compared to an equivalent price conventional aircraft?
Pace
As I have said on a few occasions to fuji excuse my posting style a lot is to generate discussion and for effect
Do I think 10 Hrs with an instructor is too much YES! its crazy!
I have to look at the best deal to achieve what I want with my money! If it works out that I have to sit with an instructor for 10 hours so be it maybe take him on a long trip to the south of france and back
Who knows maybe I will be so bad with the aircraft I will need it?
But this discussion is not so much about me moaning at having to spend 1/3 of the time I want to purchase on a Cirrus with an instructor but why an aircraft with so many safety features requires such high insurance levels?
You would have thought it would be the other way around compared to an equivalent price conventional aircraft?
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 15th Jul 2012 at 07:39.
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I find this all a little confusing being as one of the Cirrus aircraft we maintain has a basic six pack in front tof the pilot and one Avadine screen, on that aircraft you have no choice but to fly in basic HSI mode albeit with a big map on the screen to the right of the primary instruments.
These would not allow you to fly an ILS.
If the PFD failed and or MFD failed you can fly an ILS from the info on the GNS430's, both of which are independent.
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If the PFD failed and or MFD failed you can fly an ILS from the info on the GNS430's
It should be possible via an ARINC roll steering connection, if you have a compatible autopilot.
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Pace - I agree with your reasoning. All those safety features yet a seemingly negative attitude from insurers. At the end of the day, its a fixed gear SEP. Yes it will bite if abused (as the video below demonstrates) If its only way to get certification is to have a BRS fitted, then perhaps that opens the door to UK "banned" designs such as the Bede BD5.
Perhaps I was lucky - I had been asked to fly the test flights for a friend who had built a long winged version which was close to completion when the CAA and PFA banned the design. My thoughts were that it was known to have a vicious stall, you needed to avoid getting into a high alpha position on the wing and you needed to watch your speed in the circuit and final approach - with that in mind I was prepared to fly it. Conditions that would be no worse than a Pitts special with an engine faliure....
Perhaps the CAA will reconsider letting them fly if someone comes up with a mod to fit a BRS.
Without the BRS would the Cirrus have got CAA approval?
Perhaps I was lucky - I had been asked to fly the test flights for a friend who had built a long winged version which was close to completion when the CAA and PFA banned the design. My thoughts were that it was known to have a vicious stall, you needed to avoid getting into a high alpha position on the wing and you needed to watch your speed in the circuit and final approach - with that in mind I was prepared to fly it. Conditions that would be no worse than a Pitts special with an engine faliure....
Perhaps the CAA will reconsider letting them fly if someone comes up with a mod to fit a BRS.
Without the BRS would the Cirrus have got CAA approval?
Last edited by goldeneaglepilot; 15th Jul 2012 at 08:04.
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May be we should take all the standby instruments out of your aircraft and rely on the chute if you have a major Avionic failure..........come to think of it the insurers may already be thinking things are going along those lines with the red handle being seen as the first option when plan one is thwarted by circumstance.
Could it be that the insurers are ahead of us on this one with the training requirements and sky high premiums being a reflection of the mind set of the AVERAGE Cirrus pilot ????
Could it be that the insurers are ahead of us on this one with the training requirements and sky high premiums being a reflection of the mind set of the AVERAGE Cirrus pilot ????
This thread was not about sky high premiums, it was about Paces potential renter requiring a 10 hour check out. Do you have any evidence or examples of sky high premiums or is it just an uninformed opinion?
My premium and that of those others I know relative to hull value is perfectly reasonable.
What is the mind set of the AVERAGE Cirrus Pilot? please do inform.
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Having spoken last night to a pilot who rented a Cirrus shortly after completing his PPL, I think the aircraft is well within the capabilities of almost all PPL holders. With respect to Pace, who has a wide range of experience in many different aircraft types, I doubt he would have any issue in safely flying one and in a very short time being up to speed on the relevant systems. In fact I would expect that to be a significantly reduced period than a new ppl holder.
At the end of the day we are talking of a person with a very wide range of experience including the management of complex integrated systems. Why apply a "one size fits all" approach to the 10 hours? I would be very surprised in the insurers were rigid about that if disclosure was made to them of his experience and would expect in his case wording along the lines of "check ride and familiarisation with the aircraft at the discretion of an instructor"
The owner can of course apply any requirements he may want, equally Pace can go elsewhere to rent.
At the end of the day we are talking of a person with a very wide range of experience including the management of complex integrated systems. Why apply a "one size fits all" approach to the 10 hours? I would be very surprised in the insurers were rigid about that if disclosure was made to them of his experience and would expect in his case wording along the lines of "check ride and familiarisation with the aircraft at the discretion of an instructor"
The owner can of course apply any requirements he may want, equally Pace can go elsewhere to rent.
Last edited by goldeneaglepilot; 15th Jul 2012 at 08:20.
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But this discussion is not so much about me moaning at having to spend 1/3 of the time I want to purchase on a Cirrus with an instructor but why an aircraft with so many safety features requires such high insurance levels?
You would have thought it would be the other way around compared to an equivalent price conventional aircraft?
You would have thought it would be the other way around compared to an equivalent price conventional aircraft?
You would have thought the Cirrus would have had a better safety record and therefore lower than average premiums but this was the big dilema with more Cirrus Fatal's than the average GA fleet, the fatal's were made up of a high proportion of experienced seasoned pilots and lack of training, incorrect training and time on type seem to have been factor's.
This record appears thankfully to be improving and training standards and safety much higher mainly due to voluntary from those within COPA community.
How ever as the fleet gets older and becomes much more affordable there is likely an increased risk that more will get sold to Pilots who do not value or wish to invest in training.
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Having spoken last night to a pilot who rented a Cirrus shortly after completing his PPL, I think the aircraft is well within the capabilities of almost all PPL holders. With respect to Pace, who has a wide range of experience in many different aircraft types, I doubt he would have any issue in safely flying one and in a very short time being up to speed on the relevant systems. In fact I would expect that to be a significantly reduced period than a new ppl holder.
And also what experience on Glass?
It would also GEP be interesting to here how many hours your recent PPL contact had to do before renters would let him loose?
Training any PPL to fly a Cirrus VFR is no big deal, turn all the glass off so they are not distracted and a few hours they will flying just fine. If they get the speeds wrong on final and landing they may well stuff it and kill them selves but other than that sticking to strictly VFR they should be fine.
A large proportion of Cirrus Fatal's are VFR into un planned IMC, strangely this has killed roughly the same amount of VFR and IFR qualified pilots.
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within the capabilities of almost all PPL holders.
I would agree in reality but I think some would require substantially more than 10 hours training before they could be considered safe.
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PACE
The reason that the aircraft generates the problems is that a lot of the guys flying these aircraft rely totally on the technology and have no plan two as well as not fully understanding the system, I talk on these forums of using a basic HSI mode for the navigation display and I get told that I can't turn off the avionics and fly an approach.
At no time did I say I was going to turn off the avionics, I was talking about switching to a more appropriate display mode that decluttered the screen. There also seems to be an inability to understand that the heading display on the "glass" is just a gyro compass...........the basic tool of navigation!
I fear that a lot of the problems for these guys is due to information overload because they don't de-clutter the screens and just display the information that is appropriate for the phase of flight. I quoted flying the VOR 22R at NIce in basic HSI mode and got a "what a luddite" reaction, I could have flown the approach fully automaticly in LNAV/VNAV but because of the short cuts and speed control that ATC demand the lowest cockpit workload is obtained by a basic HSI display and flying the aircraft in HDG select & vertical speed.
The other advantage is that by flying the aircraft in this way the crew are eyes up rather than heads down in the FMC, this is always a good idea when you have low level VFR helicopters flying along the coastline and at the MAP will be transitioning to a curving visual approach.
The nub of the Cirrus (& Daimond) glass cockpit problems are making sure that the display used is APPROPRIATE to the phase of flight and not letting the technology become the master of what you are trying to achieve, I think that display management and information overload are key factors in the Cirrus not being as safe as the technology should have made it.
007you have just confirmed my suspicions that you think a total Glass display failure in weather close to the CAT1 minimums is likely to be best handled by using the chute, What is wrong with flying a PAR down to CAT 1? If I fly IFR in a single I always have a hand held VHF radio to enable me to recover the aircraft with a total electrical failure to an airfield with PAR in CAT 1 Weather.............the cost, a few hundreds quid vs the chances of writing off the aircraft & maybe yourself................... But maybe I should look at the upside to your attitude, a few more ballistic recoverys is bound to keep the cash coming in when we have to fix them !
At no time did I say I was going to turn off the avionics, I was talking about switching to a more appropriate display mode that decluttered the screen. There also seems to be an inability to understand that the heading display on the "glass" is just a gyro compass...........the basic tool of navigation!
I fear that a lot of the problems for these guys is due to information overload because they don't de-clutter the screens and just display the information that is appropriate for the phase of flight. I quoted flying the VOR 22R at NIce in basic HSI mode and got a "what a luddite" reaction, I could have flown the approach fully automaticly in LNAV/VNAV but because of the short cuts and speed control that ATC demand the lowest cockpit workload is obtained by a basic HSI display and flying the aircraft in HDG select & vertical speed.
The other advantage is that by flying the aircraft in this way the crew are eyes up rather than heads down in the FMC, this is always a good idea when you have low level VFR helicopters flying along the coastline and at the MAP will be transitioning to a curving visual approach.
The nub of the Cirrus (& Daimond) glass cockpit problems are making sure that the display used is APPROPRIATE to the phase of flight and not letting the technology become the master of what you are trying to achieve, I think that display management and information overload are key factors in the Cirrus not being as safe as the technology should have made it.
007you have just confirmed my suspicions that you think a total Glass display failure in weather close to the CAT1 minimums is likely to be best handled by using the chute, What is wrong with flying a PAR down to CAT 1? If I fly IFR in a single I always have a hand held VHF radio to enable me to recover the aircraft with a total electrical failure to an airfield with PAR in CAT 1 Weather.............the cost, a few hundreds quid vs the chances of writing off the aircraft & maybe yourself................... But maybe I should look at the upside to your attitude, a few more ballistic recoverys is bound to keep the cash coming in when we have to fix them !
Last edited by A and C; 15th Jul 2012 at 09:04.
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007you have just confirmed my suspicions that you think a total Glass display failure in weather close to the CAT1 minimums is likely to be best handled by using the chute, What is wrong with flying a PAR down to CAT 1? If I fly IFR in a single I always have a hand held VHF radio to enable me to recover the aircraft with a total electrical failure to an airfield with PAR in CAT 1 Weather........
If the glass fails, not a big deal there and 2 x GNS430's that I would be ok to fly an ILS but I personally would not be comfortable down to minimums in that scenario and would endeavour if possible to divert somewhere if possible with better conditions.
I am comfortable in IMC but prefer a bigger margin of error than minimums and set my own personal go / no go decisions based on being an average Joe.
The chances of all systems failing unexpectedly is remote but it could happen.
You carry your VHF handheld, I carry a fully charged Garmin 695 in the event of total failure plus an ICOM handheld.
Each to there own and in really heavy IMC and total all out electrical failure and doing a landing to minimums I would certainly weigh everything in the time and circumstances available and consider the chute may be my safest option of survival so that certainly confirms your suspicions
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To be honest its really isn't that hard doing what he suggests. I would do the same.
The thought of it sounds worse than it actually is.
PAR's and SRA's are none events and actually quite low work load less so than a procedural approach. And quite good fun to be honest.
You can fly a PAR down to zero zero ie zero ft and zero viz and touch down and be perfect safe.
Go and get a auld fart ex RAF instructor to take you to do a few. After which I can garantee you will go for that option before the chute option.
The thought of it sounds worse than it actually is.
PAR's and SRA's are none events and actually quite low work load less so than a procedural approach. And quite good fun to be honest.
You can fly a PAR down to zero zero ie zero ft and zero viz and touch down and be perfect safe.
Go and get a auld fart ex RAF instructor to take you to do a few. After which I can garantee you will go for that option before the chute option.
Last edited by mad_jock; 15th Jul 2012 at 09:39.
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More years ago than I care to mention my initial IMC rating was issued on the basis of a PAR as one of the instrument approaches, the aircraft had the basic sx pack and in terms of attitude and heading referance had more or less the same instrumentation as the standby instruments fitted to the Cirrus.
You seem to be telling me that what was normal flying for a 80 hour PPL thirty years back is likely to be beyond the capabilitys of todays average PPL/IMC holder, maybe we're you live but were I teach we would not put a pilot up for the IMC test if his/ her skills were not up to flying a PAR with an AI as attitude reference, those who are doing well usually get the do a PAR on limited panel ( that one has both the pilot and controler working quite hard!)
You seem to be telling me that what was normal flying for a 80 hour PPL thirty years back is likely to be beyond the capabilitys of todays average PPL/IMC holder, maybe we're you live but were I teach we would not put a pilot up for the IMC test if his/ her skills were not up to flying a PAR with an AI as attitude reference, those who are doing well usually get the do a PAR on limited panel ( that one has both the pilot and controler working quite hard!)
Last edited by A and C; 15th Jul 2012 at 09:44.
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I also would expect Pace to be up to speed quickly, there is no doubting his credentials, for the purpose of this discussion it would be interesting to know pace what experience you have on the GNS430's?
Some here are giving me more expertise than I have yes I have a lot of experience on multiple types of singles and twins and fly bottom of the pile business jets as a Captain.
Primus 1000 on a Bravo and the usual Garmin 530/430 avidine MFD.
I cannot say I am a great lover of the fully televison screen systems fitted to light aircraft preferring a mix of conventional and glass.
I agree that learning systems is better on the ground in sims or on long boring legs rather than in the air with an instructor.
I have flown the SR20 and 22 for short flights and did not see anything which would be a major problem.Again the twinstar!
Pace
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You can fly a PAR down to zero zero ie zero ft and zero viz and touch down and be perfect safe.
Go and get a auld fart ex RAF instructor to take you to do a few. After which I can garantee you will go for that option before the chute option.
Go and get a auld fart ex RAF instructor to take you to do a few. After which I can garantee you will go for that option before the chute option.
I think also I said it depends on weighing up all circumstances, it might be a different choice at say Manston with little Cumulus Granite compared to say Aspen Colorado, it could depend on fatigue, currency, single pilot, who else on board, a whole load of factors, I am just saying i would consider it a viable option under certain hypothetical circumstances. Zero Zero for me would be one of them.
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You seem to be telling me that what was normal flying for a 80 hour PPL thirty years back is likely to be beyond the capabilitys of todays average PPL/IMC holder, maybe we're you live but were I teach we would not put a pilot up for the IMC test if his/ her skills were not up to flying a PAR with an AI as attitude reference, those who are doing well usually get the do a PAR on limited panel ( that one has both the pilot and controler working quite hard!)
Fortunately complete failure of this type in the modern aircraft I am trained to fly it is to the best of my knowledge an extremely unlikely scenario.
Also I do not mind admitting that I am so rusty on flying with traditional instruments that I would not even consider going IMC without a large amount of re training.
Kudos to you if you are totally competent and capable with a hand held VHF but for me I am certainly not and do not intend to have this as an option.
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I cannot say I am a great lover of the fully televison screen systems fitted to light aircraft preferring a mix of conventional and glass.
I agree that learning systems is better on the ground in sims
I agree that learning systems is better on the ground in sims
We talked in the swap an hour thread, if you can handle my chute pull policy feel free to come down for a few more hours in an SR22 as part of your decision making process.
Last edited by 007helicopter; 15th Jul 2012 at 11:36.