Renting Cirrus insurance requirements ???
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Don't forget most airports with radar will provide a SRA.
The "SRA" concept is a UK only concept - AFAIK. Never heard of it elsewhere.
In general, a radar controller will vector you down to his MVA / MRVA. That's it.
After that, you are on your own. You may have to "confirm VMC"
- especially in Germany In almost any scenario where this is an option, and where the cloudbase is pretty low relative to the general terrain, a DIY descent over the sea and a flight to a coastal airport is the safest way if you have a handheld GPS and nothing else.
Which, in turn, renders virtually all published non-ILS IAPs at UK coastal airports worth a lot less than most would think - except for pilots who are bound to use them e.g. AOC holders and training flights
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Your in a dangerous spiral peter and turning into one of those local pilots that everyone is dreading to see the accident report on.
What you have just described is exactly what happend off Blackpool to a young lad commercial and auld out of medical pilot. Both now dead.
They had a SRA approach within 20 miles of Blackpool.
And not suprisingly I have inside europe and outside. You can get PAR's at Mil fields in Germany. And the larger civi German fields SRA is an option. The SRA needs a different type of radar with a higher scan rate than the normal ones.
Pilot information for Düsseldorf International Airport @ OurAirports
SRA RUNWAY 23R, A 680 (560), B 680 (560), C 680 (560), D 680 (560)
Here is the mins for DUS
Which is only 50ft more than the LNAV approach. Crappy pilot interpreted hand held GPS v controller prompted and monitored SRA your in a dream world.
What you have just described is exactly what happend off Blackpool to a young lad commercial and auld out of medical pilot. Both now dead.
They had a SRA approach within 20 miles of Blackpool.
And not suprisingly I have inside europe and outside. You can get PAR's at Mil fields in Germany. And the larger civi German fields SRA is an option. The SRA needs a different type of radar with a higher scan rate than the normal ones.
Pilot information for Düsseldorf International Airport @ OurAirports
SRA RUNWAY 23R, A 680 (560), B 680 (560), C 680 (560), D 680 (560)
Here is the mins for DUS
Which is only 50ft more than the LNAV approach. Crappy pilot interpreted hand held GPS v controller prompted and monitored SRA your in a dream world.
Last edited by mad_jock; 15th Jul 2012 at 18:59.
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A PAR approach is not that easy to fly unless one has practiced regularly - unless you are descending to a very generous MDH like 500ft, which one can frankly do with a handheld in an emergency, having picked an airport with no real obstacles around it
I have posted this in the past in pprune. I flew as a safety pilot in a Seneca over 10 years ago.
I was late and found out that the aircraft had been misfuelled. The guages were faulty and tryin g to sort out the fuel the crossfeed selector jammed.
Half way across the irish Sea another problem.
ATC advised that airports in a large area had gone down in unforecast fog.
After one missed approach into the destination airport and unsure of the fuel state I made a call to a military base.
Colour code red I explained the situation and was vectored for a PAR.
Passing 200 feet the controllers intesified their commands after the usual "if not visual" thing! until the lights appeared from the gloom and we landed.
On landing the Cloud was sitting on the hangar roofs at RAF Shawbury prob 40 to 50 feet max.
So maybe not quite armchair and NO Sky God
A PAR with the right controllers can literally talk you to the ground as long as you do not loose the plot.
Handheld that would be pushing it
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 15th Jul 2012 at 18:58.
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A PAR with the right controllers can literally talk you to the ground as long as you do not loose the plot.
But that strong competent voice just made everything so easy. Only thing to watch though is if you try and use your head and start work out heights you think you should be at, it doesn't work because they are not setup for a 3deg glide so just listen apply smooth small control inputs and do as your told.
And after thanking him. He just said "its a pleasure sir, a follow me is on its way if you could please stop at your descretion, confirm brake set and vehicle in sight" big mug of NATO tea was waiting for us in the VAS because the IC reckoned we deserved it but in all honesty the talkdown did all the hard work we just did as we were told.
And you will hit that center line at the touchdown point when they say you will.
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Your in a dangerous spiral peter and turning into one of those local pilots that everyone is dreading to see the accident report on.
What you have just described is exactly what happend off Blackpool to a young lad commercial and auld out of medical pilot. Both now dead.
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Difficult are you taking the piss?
You don't have to look at anything just jig it up and down slightly and left a bit right a bit. A complete none instrument pilot could fly one its just like having an instructor sitting next to you interpreting the instruments they will also tell you ground speed as well.
You don't need to be "current" either just like doing a SRA or a DME arc just crack on
You don't have to look at anything just jig it up and down slightly and left a bit right a bit. A complete none instrument pilot could fly one its just like having an instructor sitting next to you interpreting the instruments they will also tell you ground speed as well.
You don't need to be "current" either just like doing a SRA or a DME arc just crack on
Inadvertent VFR into IMC accounts for roughly half the Cirrus fatal's so now you are proposing they should be able to fly within a few 100ft of the ground, cool as a cucumber and just jig it up and down a bit?
I would suggest in this scenario 95%+ of Cirrus Pilots would be far better of pulling the chute if no sensible divert.
As it is a very rare and unlikely scenario of total 100% electrical failure due to redundancy in a Cirrus then it is all just hypothetical anyway.
Partial panel needs to be practiced for sure.
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Yes but more than likely there will the next best thing of a SRA.
Which can get you down to NPA mins with a working Altimeter.
If in doud't tell who every you are speaking to what you need and what you have or go straight to 121.5 and do the same. You will be suprised whats available and how much help is instantly at your desposal. Yes a let down over the sea might be it, but everyone will know where you have gone in and assets will be sent out.
I have never seen an accident report of a fatality that was working DnD with them trying to get them in somewhere over mainland UK. Seen plenty mind of folk trying to DIY it in ****e conditions.
Which can get you down to NPA mins with a working Altimeter.
If in doud't tell who every you are speaking to what you need and what you have or go straight to 121.5 and do the same. You will be suprised whats available and how much help is instantly at your desposal. Yes a let down over the sea might be it, but everyone will know where you have gone in and assets will be sent out.
I have never seen an accident report of a fatality that was working DnD with them trying to get them in somewhere over mainland UK. Seen plenty mind of folk trying to DIY it in ****e conditions.
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I too would choose a PAR if there was one within range, but often there won't be.
Not many around nowadays.
Not many around nowadays.
And or in a real life situation?
I understand if circumstances arose and it was required we would all give it a go if there were no other options.
Would you Peter consider in the 200ft overcast scenario, plus all your electrics totally dead, would you consider the chute being a viable option if you had it available?
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A PAR with the right controllers can literally talk you to the ground as long as you do not loose the plot.
Handheld that would be pushing it
Handheld that would be pushing it
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MJ Got to be honest and find this a pretty bizarre attitude from a pro, to say a complete non instrument pilot could fly one without any previous practice is in my mind just total nonsense and I guestimate in the heat of the moment maybe half of non instrument pilots would not survive to tell the tale.
I did one at Lyneham a while ago. At the time I had 90 hours total time and just two hours on instruments, and it worked absolutely perfectly. Almost magic...
I don't think it is anywhere near as hard as you think it is... If you're capable of keeping the aircraft level and able to follow simple instructions, it just works.
Last edited by stevelup; 15th Jul 2012 at 19:41.
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I think you need to do one before commenting further!
I did one at Lyneham a while ago. At the time I had 90 hours total time and just two hours on instruments, and it worked absolutely perfectly. Almost magic...
I don't think it anywhere near as hard as you think it is... If you're capable of keeping the aircraft level and able to follow simple instructions, it just works.
I did one at Lyneham a while ago. At the time I had 90 hours total time and just two hours on instruments, and it worked absolutely perfectly. Almost magic...
I don't think it anywhere near as hard as you think it is... If you're capable of keeping the aircraft level and able to follow simple instructions, it just works.
Try it with failed electrics which would be stressful in itself plus no instructor on board, 200 ft over cast, plus maybe your family on board and I sincerely hope the magic continues.
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007
You and Fuji have converted me to change my opinion to a certain extent to using the chute in areas I would not have considered
Pace
You and Fuji have converted me to change my opinion to a certain extent to using the chute in areas I would not have considered
Pace
My personal opinion if you would not consider it in this scenario then there would be little point in investing the time and money into an aircraft with a chute, so I take it a genuine response.
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The often quoted life expectancy of a VFR pilot in IMC is something like 60 seconds.
If they can get past that and talking to someone it increases dramatically as long as they can keep straight and level.
I have a civi mate that got a award from some ATC proffessional lot for just keeping a pilot calm and saying dot to altimeter wings to di. Time for a freda check. Got them back into VMC with some CAT viz reports and recovered to a nearby by airport. The pilot was just lucky he was also an experenced pilot and CRI.
If you can get past the first 60 seconds without panicing and loosing control I reckon they would get you on the ground. Remember also that the RAF fields have a duty pilot in the tower who can talk them through.
I reckoned if the VFR pilot had survived the intial going into IMC to the point they were talking to the mil field apart from running out of fuel etc they would have a pretty good chance of survival.
As you can see by my previous posts some of the practises of RAF controllers I don't agree with. But when the **** hits the fan they really do produce the goods.
O and I am not trying to wind you up. Just make you think about your options. Which in most places is more than you think.
007 give us a rough guide to where you fly from and we can make suggestion and even make suggestions for someone to go with you if someone doesn't chip in and offer anyway just to get a flight in your nice machine. I am sure there will be someone quite will to cover the whole lot up and let you try and fly one on just standby instruments. I am almost certain you will have a very pleasant suprise.
If they can get past that and talking to someone it increases dramatically as long as they can keep straight and level.
I have a civi mate that got a award from some ATC proffessional lot for just keeping a pilot calm and saying dot to altimeter wings to di. Time for a freda check. Got them back into VMC with some CAT viz reports and recovered to a nearby by airport. The pilot was just lucky he was also an experenced pilot and CRI.
If you can get past the first 60 seconds without panicing and loosing control I reckon they would get you on the ground. Remember also that the RAF fields have a duty pilot in the tower who can talk them through.
I reckoned if the VFR pilot had survived the intial going into IMC to the point they were talking to the mil field apart from running out of fuel etc they would have a pretty good chance of survival.
As you can see by my previous posts some of the practises of RAF controllers I don't agree with. But when the **** hits the fan they really do produce the goods.
O and I am not trying to wind you up. Just make you think about your options. Which in most places is more than you think.
007 give us a rough guide to where you fly from and we can make suggestion and even make suggestions for someone to go with you if someone doesn't chip in and offer anyway just to get a flight in your nice machine. I am sure there will be someone quite will to cover the whole lot up and let you try and fly one on just standby instruments. I am almost certain you will have a very pleasant suprise.
Last edited by mad_jock; 15th Jul 2012 at 20:00.
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The often quoted life expectancy of a VFR pilot in IMC is something like 60 seconds.
If they can get past that and talking to someone it increases dramatically as long as they can keep straight and level.
If they can get past that and talking to someone it increases dramatically as long as they can keep straight and level.
I took exception to your point saying virtually anyone could do it, even a guy with no instrument time. but hey ho, maybe I misunderstood your point or just gullible, either way fine.
VFR pilots have screwed up by getting into IMC but it seems to happen quite often, maybe like steve's post earlier thinking it was magic he did a PAR would, that would encourage similar Pilots to go and push on into IMC.
Anyway I still reckon 200ft, screwed electrics, Chute on board, I am going to pull the bugger every time however well a PAR or whatever else goes in a training scenario.
Why, because there a lot of dead Cirrus Pilots buried out there who balls up with a perfectly good chute as an option and at that point I do not give a monkeys about the insurance consequences.
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007 give us a rough guide to where you fly from and we can make suggestion and even make suggestions for someone to go with you if someone doesn't chip in and offer anyway just to get a flight in your nice machine. I am sure there will be someone quite will to cover the whole lot up and let you try and fly one on just standby instruments. I am almost certain you will have a very pleasant suprise.
Holy Sh1t it could be MJ @ luechers !!
Last edited by 007helicopter; 15th Jul 2012 at 20:09.
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The standard PPL instrument time will do just grand as a previous poster has stipulated.
I would imagine in a similar situation the chute wouldn't save them either because they would be outside the deployment envelope.
Which is why so many of us reckon that the IMC is such a brillant add on even if its not kept current.
Go and do one and get who ever does it with you to cover the screens up and see what you think. Then go and do a SRA.
Its your aircraft and you are the PIC so you get to choose if you wnat to deploy or not end of story we are just letting you know that there are options which the dead cirrus pilots might not have considered which may be safer than pulling the chute.
Nah it won't be me.
Phone Perth up and see if you can get an Instructor called Die Heather Hayes (Sp?). He knows a thing or two about instrument flying. I wouldn't have thought it would be problem getting some PARs at leuchars
I would imagine in a similar situation the chute wouldn't save them either because they would be outside the deployment envelope.
Which is why so many of us reckon that the IMC is such a brillant add on even if its not kept current.
Go and do one and get who ever does it with you to cover the screens up and see what you think. Then go and do a SRA.
Its your aircraft and you are the PIC so you get to choose if you wnat to deploy or not end of story we are just letting you know that there are options which the dead cirrus pilots might not have considered which may be safer than pulling the chute.
Nah it won't be me.
Phone Perth up and see if you can get an Instructor called Die Heather Hayes (Sp?). He knows a thing or two about instrument flying. I wouldn't have thought it would be problem getting some PARs at leuchars
Last edited by mad_jock; 15th Jul 2012 at 20:19.