Renting Cirrus insurance requirements ???
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Doesn't matter if its a hand held you don't have to do any read backs on a PAR. They just talk you down. With small corrections in heading and rate of decent. Then at the bottom tell you that your over the touchdown point.
At which point hold the heading keep the ball in the center take the power off and as soon as the mains touch, hammer on the brakes.
Some controls have more finess with left a smige right a hair, little bobble please.
Its has been known to be done via a mobile tucked under a headset.
there is no way on this earth I would go for the chute if there was a field near by a radar. Even if they didn't have an offical SRA approach they would sort you out.
this conversation though does sort of show though why the insurance is so high. Writing off perfectly servicable aircraft when you still have options left.
At which point hold the heading keep the ball in the center take the power off and as soon as the mains touch, hammer on the brakes.
Some controls have more finess with left a smige right a hair, little bobble please.
Its has been known to be done via a mobile tucked under a headset.
there is no way on this earth I would go for the chute if there was a field near by a radar. Even if they didn't have an offical SRA approach they would sort you out.
this conversation though does sort of show though why the insurance is so high. Writing off perfectly servicable aircraft when you still have options left.
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Planning for trouble
The hand held radio has plugs for the my headset so it is more or less like using a normal radio, as you may know you are not required to reply to the PAR controllers instructions during the final part of the approach so as long as you can hear him that will get you to 200 ft above the runway in a good position to make a landing.
By personal aircraft also has a connection to put the hand held on to an external antenna this boosts the range by a factor of five.
With preparation, and practice a total electrical failure is not the drama you might think it would be.
By personal aircraft also has a connection to put the hand held on to an external antenna this boosts the range by a factor of five.
With preparation, and practice a total electrical failure is not the drama you might think it would be.
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But maybe I should look at the upside to your attitude, a few more ballistic recoverys is bound to keep the cash coming in when we have to fix them !
If you do end up fixing mine due to a chute pull and I can walk in to inspect I will take as much flak as you want about my attitude, no worries.
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The hand held radio has plugs for the my headset so it is more or less like using a normal radio, as you may know you are not required to reply to the PAR controllers instructions during the final part of the approach so as long as you can hear him that will get you to 200 ft above the runway in a good position to make a landing.
By personal aircraft also has a connection to put the hand held on to an external antenna this boosts the range by a factor of five.
With preparation, and practice a total electrical failure is not the drama you might think it would be.
By personal aircraft also has a connection to put the hand held on to an external antenna this boosts the range by a factor of five.
With preparation, and practice a total electrical failure is not the drama you might think it would be.
The external antenna sounds a good idea, would that generally require an STC?
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No STC required, My instalation is via a Bendix/King mechanical relay that fits into the panel.
The relay disconnects the VHF 2 from its antenna when you plug in the hand held antenna cable. A very minor modification that I did when the rest of The avionics were changed.
At 3000ft it increases the range of the hand held from about 15 miles with the rubber antenna to at least 60 miles ( I did not bother to test it further than 60 miles).
The relay disconnects the VHF 2 from its antenna when you plug in the hand held antenna cable. A very minor modification that I did when the rest of The avionics were changed.
At 3000ft it increases the range of the hand held from about 15 miles with the rubber antenna to at least 60 miles ( I did not bother to test it further than 60 miles).
Last edited by A and C; 15th Jul 2012 at 12:27.
A and C, could you let me have a little more detail on the mod? Could it be done to the primary (i.e. Only) radio? I generally carry a handheld in my bag, with a headset adaptor, but as you say then range isn't too good. Feel free to PM me if you prefer. Thanks
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Just make sure you get an old school instructor. Might be an issue finding one thats not steam only instruments 
There is nothing special about PARS and most mil fields are actually more than happy for you to do one because it keeps the controllers in check so to speak.
My first ever PAR and I might add no training for, was in anger with 18 punters down the back, a cloud base of OVC001 and 700m RVR. Plan was to show willing by doing 1 approach and then bugger off to some nicer wx and an ILS. Runway lights on the nose at mins, seemed rude not to land so we did.
There is nothing special about PARS and most mil fields are actually more than happy for you to do one because it keeps the controllers in check so to speak.
My first ever PAR and I might add no training for, was in anger with 18 punters down the back, a cloud base of OVC001 and 700m RVR. Plan was to show willing by doing 1 approach and then bugger off to some nicer wx and an ILS. Runway lights on the nose at mins, seemed rude not to land so we did.
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there is no way on this earth I would go for the chute if there was a field near by a radar. Even if they didn't have an offical SRA approach they would sort you out.
this conversation though does sort of show though why the insurance is so high. Writing off perfectly servicable aircraft when you still have options left.
this conversation though does sort of show though why the insurance is so high. Writing off perfectly servicable aircraft when you still have options left.
I and many other Cirrus owners think our insurance premium is perfectly reasonable. (I am sure some will disagree)
As I said my decision would depend on all the other factors and to then try and choose the best decision relative for me at that point in time.
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There is nothing special about PARS and most mil fields are actually more than happy for you to do one because it keeps the controllers in check so to speak.
I must admit with 18 punters on board and no training for you first PAR, OVC001 & 700mtr when there was an alternate with good weather strikes me as a fairly high risk for your passengers, when you say in anger why was this or what were the circumstances?
Also a wee bit Macho for my tastes.
Was this in Military or Civvi life?
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PAR
PAR is now almost totally a military letdown, all the RAF controllers are good at this and a lot of them are very good ! As long as you can fly the aircraft they will put you in a place from which you can land.
Piper classique I will look out the details but I see no reason why the instalation that you are thinking of won't work, the mechanical relay was initaly offered by Bendix/King as an accessory for the KX99 hand held radio, perhaps a little Internet searching might find the part number.
Ahh the power of the Internet ...... Mechanical relay part number 071-01443-0001 (Bendix/king)
Piper classique I will look out the details but I see no reason why the instalation that you are thinking of won't work, the mechanical relay was initaly offered by Bendix/King as an accessory for the KX99 hand held radio, perhaps a little Internet searching might find the part number.
Ahh the power of the Internet ...... Mechanical relay part number 071-01443-0001 (Bendix/king)
Last edited by A and C; 15th Jul 2012 at 13:18. Reason: Part number added
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Civil commercial passenger AOC operation.
In anger means it wasn't a training flight.
Why is it high risk?
And when I said nice wx I meant somewhere that you would still think was bloody horrible but is all part of life as a commercial pilot.
Its only high risk if you don't have an escape plan, I think I had three that day. Two alternates and I had enough fuel on to hold for 15 mins and still return back to my departure with an alternate there and reserve fuel.
And to add the controllers need to stay current an approach a week or two something like that. I never ever had a "no thanks" when we offered to accept one when early and even if we did need an ILS to get us below MSA 50% of the time they would ask us to do a PAR for controller currency.
I think the mil mins off one are below 100ft.
In anger means it wasn't a training flight.
Why is it high risk?
And when I said nice wx I meant somewhere that you would still think was bloody horrible but is all part of life as a commercial pilot.
Its only high risk if you don't have an escape plan, I think I had three that day. Two alternates and I had enough fuel on to hold for 15 mins and still return back to my departure with an alternate there and reserve fuel.
And to add the controllers need to stay current an approach a week or two something like that. I never ever had a "no thanks" when we offered to accept one when early and even if we did need an ILS to get us below MSA 50% of the time they would ask us to do a PAR for controller currency.
I think the mil mins off one are below 100ft.
Last edited by mad_jock; 15th Jul 2012 at 13:36.
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MJ Fair enough, I respect your position as a commercial Pilot and will rephrase that, in my personal capability as a PPL I would consider 100ft ceiling in any conditions a high risk for my self, with additional stress of failed instruments and no panel, plus a controller that may or may not be current, plus a procedure I have never practiced and I am not familiar with the correct phraseology or what to expect, yes I would actually consider it a very high risk and with 100ft ceilings and no viable alternative I would find the most open area and pull the chute.
I appreciate this is not for you and you are not an average PPL
Relating this back in some way to OP original point I would also consider this a high risk (IMHO) for anyone low hours on type or anyone not very current with all the systems and suggest that what ever level of experience one has it is wise to take a reasonable amount of relevant training before flying in a new type with unfamiliar avionics in challenging conditions such as hard IMC
I appreciate this is not for you and you are not an average PPL
Relating this back in some way to OP original point I would also consider this a high risk (IMHO) for anyone low hours on type or anyone not very current with all the systems and suggest that what ever level of experience one has it is wise to take a reasonable amount of relevant training before flying in a new type with unfamiliar avionics in challenging conditions such as hard IMC
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PAR
The system minima is 200ft but I know that aircraft have been recovered in far lower cloud base than that.
One of my instructors was an ex RAF controller, he said that one very foggy night he was called out of the mess to talk down a Vulcan that was almost out of fuel, this was in the days when the PAR controler worked from a hut next to the radar in the middle of the airfield,
As the Vulcan got down to below 100ft he herd the aircraft and told the pilot that he was just coming over the threshold. The aircraft was parked on the runway as there was not enough visibility to taxi
Later in the bar the captain of the Vulcan said that he did not positively see the runway lights untill after the wheels touched down.........I'm told the evening ended with industrial quantitys of beer being consumed.
Having done CAT 3 no DH on the A320 I know what this approach must have looked like but I was lucky enough to just be the the spectator in the airbus watching the automatics do the work and just taxing the thing to the terminal, hats off to the guys who did this manually !!!
One of my instructors was an ex RAF controller, he said that one very foggy night he was called out of the mess to talk down a Vulcan that was almost out of fuel, this was in the days when the PAR controler worked from a hut next to the radar in the middle of the airfield,
As the Vulcan got down to below 100ft he herd the aircraft and told the pilot that he was just coming over the threshold. The aircraft was parked on the runway as there was not enough visibility to taxi
Later in the bar the captain of the Vulcan said that he did not positively see the runway lights untill after the wheels touched down.........I'm told the evening ended with industrial quantitys of beer being consumed.
Having done CAT 3 no DH on the A320 I know what this approach must have looked like but I was lucky enough to just be the the spectator in the airbus watching the automatics do the work and just taxing the thing to the terminal, hats off to the guys who did this manually !!!
Last edited by A and C; 15th Jul 2012 at 13:57.
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When it gives 100ft OVC is quite common to get the lights at 200ft with CAT 1 lighting and at 300 with CAT II lighting sometimes higher. Day V night makes a huge difference.
OVC 100ft RVR 550m is challanging and you get a sense of relief/statisfaction when you get in.
The first time a new commercial pilot does one in anger is one of those rights of passage. In someways its when they first realise that is not a computer game and you really really don't have alot of time between seeing a visual reference, which might not be tarmac or PAPI's, you may only get that at 50-100ft. And planting the wheels while doing 120knts. Add in 20knts of xwind and you have to watch for them going into shock on the turn round.
This safety sense may help with what goes on doing a PAR.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_09webSSL26.pdf
See the whole trick with this flying in clouds milarky is never get yourself into a position when you don't have any other options. And what you can downgrade instrument wise to and still have options is remarkably little.
And to be honest for someone of Paces experence even though he is FAA
, I really can't see the point of doing 10 hours training. You either have a instrument head on you or your don't, 10 hours isn't going to sort that out.
OVC 100ft RVR 550m is challanging and you get a sense of relief/statisfaction when you get in.
The first time a new commercial pilot does one in anger is one of those rights of passage. In someways its when they first realise that is not a computer game and you really really don't have alot of time between seeing a visual reference, which might not be tarmac or PAPI's, you may only get that at 50-100ft. And planting the wheels while doing 120knts. Add in 20knts of xwind and you have to watch for them going into shock on the turn round.
This safety sense may help with what goes on doing a PAR.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_09webSSL26.pdf
See the whole trick with this flying in clouds milarky is never get yourself into a position when you don't have any other options. And what you can downgrade instrument wise to and still have options is remarkably little.
And to be honest for someone of Paces experence even though he is FAA
, I really can't see the point of doing 10 hours training. You either have a instrument head on you or your don't, 10 hours isn't going to sort that out.
Last edited by mad_jock; 15th Jul 2012 at 14:25.
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thtread drift - PAR
I know very little about PAR approaches other than what's been written about them in the 'Polish president' thread over at R&N, where it was discussed quite extensively.
So some Qs to the wise:
- what equipment does the airport need to have for this procedure?
- are civilian airports likely to have it (if it's non-standard stuff)?
- are civilian controllers trained in this?
- what, if any, equipment (e.g. transponder?) must still be functioning in the a/c?
So some Qs to the wise:
- what equipment does the airport need to have for this procedure?
- are civilian airports likely to have it (if it's non-standard stuff)?
- are civilian controllers trained in this?
- what, if any, equipment (e.g. transponder?) must still be functioning in the a/c?
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They have a radar that can do vertical as well as horizontal you can spot them because they have nodding head on the side that scans up and down.
They won't have it these days unless your going into a mil and civi airfield. I don't know of any in the UK. With an ILS its cheaper and requires less training/upkeep for the controllers. Some units do still though have SRA which is a NPA but you need your altimeter to be working.
I doud't they are these days, unless they are on a mil contract.
Only equipment you need is a receiving radio in theory don't even need to be able to transmit. Which is why they are so great as a last resort and well worth knowing where you can get one if the poo really does hit the fan.
They won't have it these days unless your going into a mil and civi airfield. I don't know of any in the UK. With an ILS its cheaper and requires less training/upkeep for the controllers. Some units do still though have SRA which is a NPA but you need your altimeter to be working.
I doud't they are these days, unless they are on a mil contract.
Only equipment you need is a receiving radio in theory don't even need to be able to transmit. Which is why they are so great as a last resort and well worth knowing where you can get one if the poo really does hit the fan.
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A couple of little points
I have this too but without a relay; I have a loop in the COM2 antenna cable, a short BNC cable, and the ICOM radio can be plugged into this. Very trivial. A relay would have to be a coaxial 50ohm relay whose insertion loss will be a lot more than two BNC (or SMA) connectors.
Re PAR, there are almost no airports in the south of England that do PAR approaches. Maybe Benson, Boscombe or Odiham?
A PAR approach is not that easy to fly unless one has practiced regularly - unless you are descending to a very generous MDH like 500ft, which one can frankly do with a handheld in an emergency, having picked an airport with no real obstacles around it
Anybody flying abroad IFR will naturally get lots of ILS practice but PAR practice is hard to get.
If you want a battery backup for an ILS, there is a handheld radio which will do that, for a few hundred bucks IIRC. Not UK agency approved so you have to do a, ahem, "personal import"
The relay disconnects the VHF 2 from its antenna when you plug in the hand held antenna cable. A very minor modification that I did when the rest of The avionics were changed.
At 3000ft it increases the range of the hand held from about 15 miles with the rubber antenna to at least 60 miles
At 3000ft it increases the range of the hand held from about 15 miles with the rubber antenna to at least 60 miles
Re PAR, there are almost no airports in the south of England that do PAR approaches. Maybe Benson, Boscombe or Odiham?
A PAR approach is not that easy to fly unless one has practiced regularly - unless you are descending to a very generous MDH like 500ft, which one can frankly do with a handheld in an emergency, having picked an airport with no real obstacles around it
Anybody flying abroad IFR will naturally get lots of ILS practice but PAR practice is hard to get.
If you want a battery backup for an ILS, there is a handheld radio which will do that, for a few hundred bucks IIRC. Not UK agency approved so you have to do a, ahem, "personal import"
Last edited by peterh337; 15th Jul 2012 at 16:48.
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Don't forget most airports with radar will provide a SRA.
There are plenty in the south as just about every where.
I have never heard so much none sense on this forum - I can only assume to wind up 007helicopter.
In the very unlikely event of a total electrical failure you lot should know better than encourage pilots to shoot approaches to minima. I have no doubt that those of you that are really bashing the approaches day in day out will do a good job, but there is nothing on the packet that says every instrument pilot or for that matter every pilot must have the same skill set as you Sky Gods!
Be in no doubt, regardless of whether it be a Cirrus or something else flying an approach to minima or flying a SRA or PAR with a hand held radio is a very big deal. Its a lovely idea in the comfort of your arm chair and I am always a little suspicious whether that arm chair has proved too comfortable for some to remember that the occasion on which it happens the weather might just be cr*p, you are bouncing around and worried about avoiding the worst of it, you aint to chuffed that all your systems have failed and may well be worried about whats going to fail next.
Clearly I am not in the same Sky God league and I too would weigh the options carefully.
I think some of you might well be quite naughty boys.
There are plenty in the south as just about every where.
I have never heard so much none sense on this forum - I can only assume to wind up 007helicopter.
In the very unlikely event of a total electrical failure you lot should know better than encourage pilots to shoot approaches to minima. I have no doubt that those of you that are really bashing the approaches day in day out will do a good job, but there is nothing on the packet that says every instrument pilot or for that matter every pilot must have the same skill set as you Sky Gods!
Be in no doubt, regardless of whether it be a Cirrus or something else flying an approach to minima or flying a SRA or PAR with a hand held radio is a very big deal. Its a lovely idea in the comfort of your arm chair and I am always a little suspicious whether that arm chair has proved too comfortable for some to remember that the occasion on which it happens the weather might just be cr*p, you are bouncing around and worried about avoiding the worst of it, you aint to chuffed that all your systems have failed and may well be worried about whats going to fail next.
Clearly I am not in the same Sky God league and I too would weigh the options carefully.
I think some of you might well be quite naughty boys.
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Difficult are you taking the piss?
You don't have to look at anything just jig it up and down slightly and left a bit right a bit. A complete none instrument pilot could fly one its just like having an instructor sitting next to you interpreting the instruments they will also tell you ground speed as well.
You don't need to be "current" either just like doing a SRA or a DME arc just crack on. I can go years between doing them and still be cock on. If you can fly a ILS you can fly a PAR. Its the whole point of them. So a plane can come back shot to hell, blind unable to transmit and still get it to the ground with a bloody great net to catch them if so required.
Most mil fields have them if they have FJ's, Mahram doesn't have one.
And not everone flys in the south of England.
I ain't a sky god and yes I normally do bang in 20-30 approaches a week. But honestly even the extremely low houred FO's wouldn't struggle, some of which can't find the toilet in the airport.
Its a mind set of dealing with issues when flying especially on instruments.
DODAR is used extensively today in airline ops
1. Diagnose
2. Options
3. Decide
4. Act
5. Review.
If you don't have a clue what your options are apart pull the chute you really don't have many options.
And a complete electrical failure is more likely than an engine failure. Well I haven't had engine failure yet in a SEP and have the electrics 5-6 times in 1100 hours. The older the airframes get the more likely it is to happen. So it might not happen for a couple of years but it will at some point.
You don't have to look at anything just jig it up and down slightly and left a bit right a bit. A complete none instrument pilot could fly one its just like having an instructor sitting next to you interpreting the instruments they will also tell you ground speed as well.
You don't need to be "current" either just like doing a SRA or a DME arc just crack on. I can go years between doing them and still be cock on. If you can fly a ILS you can fly a PAR. Its the whole point of them. So a plane can come back shot to hell, blind unable to transmit and still get it to the ground with a bloody great net to catch them if so required.
Most mil fields have them if they have FJ's, Mahram doesn't have one.
And not everone flys in the south of England.
I ain't a sky god and yes I normally do bang in 20-30 approaches a week. But honestly even the extremely low houred FO's wouldn't struggle, some of which can't find the toilet in the airport.
Its a mind set of dealing with issues when flying especially on instruments.
DODAR is used extensively today in airline ops
1. Diagnose
2. Options
3. Decide
4. Act
5. Review.
If you don't have a clue what your options are apart pull the chute you really don't have many options.
And a complete electrical failure is more likely than an engine failure. Well I haven't had engine failure yet in a SEP and have the electrics 5-6 times in 1100 hours. The older the airframes get the more likely it is to happen. So it might not happen for a couple of years but it will at some point.
Last edited by mad_jock; 15th Jul 2012 at 17:27.
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Interestingly (well, maybe not) both on my IR training and IRI course I got PARs first before I got the ILS. In both cases the view was that the PAR was a great intro to the concept of the precision approach. I've been taught that a good option is to teach a pseudo PAR to my students before I take them on the ILS. Up here you can only get a real PAR at Leuchars and Lossie. That'll drop to just Lossie soon (apparently). The mil controllers are excellent in my (limited) experience.