Aircraft ownership - how can we dispel the rich toy myth?
CJboy
Well, I do travelling with it whenever I can. Best use of equipment, remember? If it makes sense to go by plane I will, if by car I do that or by any other means available.
I agree, but a lot of the folks who think along the lines we have been discussing here don't. For them, cars are as "evil" as planes or ANYTHING enjoyable, regardless if necessary or not.
Absolutely right, we need to stop apologizing. We have nothing to apologize for.
Yes of course it is fun, but that does not exclude it being useful as well. I would probably not be interested in flying a plane which can't serve any useful purpose, such as getting me on trips I'd do in any case but faster and more economical. Yet, that is exactly the problem, or part of it. The people we have been discussing here don't see that there are different planes for different purposes, different cost range, just like with cars. Nobody will compare a Lamborghini with a Mini Cooper or a Smart, but they do compare a Pitts Special with a Mooney if you get my drift. I think you are right to say that a lot of planes are there purely for the fun of it, but not all and not by far all.
That I think makes the difference between GA, which CAN be a straightforward system of personal transport, towards other past times.
However, I strongly feel that the people's right of self determination on how they wish to spend their time, be it professional or pleasure, needs protection from those who wish to treat us like sheep. Throughout my professional life I have strived to do something I like. Not only out of egoism but also because if you do something you like, you are better and more efficient at it than if you do something which pais the bills but is otherwise boring or even awful. The same needs to go for what we do outside our professional life.
Best regards
AN2 Driver.
Standing by for a barrage of folks telling how they do a business trip every now and again, but let's be honest we could all do without SEP aircraft.
A car is a necessity for life in the Western world, except if you live in a big city centre.
We should stop being apologetic and trying to say it's not a hobby/pleasure/fun because that's why we do it. That is exactly the same motivation as the golfers at the golf club, the sailors at the sailing club, even the man who sits by a lake fishing for 20 hours at a stretch. We all put what we have into our fun, and it's different for everybody.
Yes of course it is fun, but that does not exclude it being useful as well. I would probably not be interested in flying a plane which can't serve any useful purpose, such as getting me on trips I'd do in any case but faster and more economical. Yet, that is exactly the problem, or part of it. The people we have been discussing here don't see that there are different planes for different purposes, different cost range, just like with cars. Nobody will compare a Lamborghini with a Mini Cooper or a Smart, but they do compare a Pitts Special with a Mooney if you get my drift. I think you are right to say that a lot of planes are there purely for the fun of it, but not all and not by far all.
That I think makes the difference between GA, which CAN be a straightforward system of personal transport, towards other past times.
However, I strongly feel that the people's right of self determination on how they wish to spend their time, be it professional or pleasure, needs protection from those who wish to treat us like sheep. Throughout my professional life I have strived to do something I like. Not only out of egoism but also because if you do something you like, you are better and more efficient at it than if you do something which pais the bills but is otherwise boring or even awful. The same needs to go for what we do outside our professional life.
Best regards
AN2 Driver.
Gertrude,
No they are not. I have been there and I have the T-shirt as the saying goes. Unemployed for quite a while. I found things to do, to get me over that time. And I got out of it. Not because some people took pity on me, but because I sat on my on behind and made it happen. That, at least in the Western world, is something people CAN do. I've seen too many examples to know that if you keep an open mind, if you are not too pretentious to do exactly those jobs if need be for a while, then you will get out of the gutter.
And something else. Nobody of us who would forego flying out of sympathy for the "poor" would do them a favour. Nor if we forego all "luxury". Every past time generates jobs. Aviation generates a lot of them. If we were to give up, we'd end up with another batch of unemployed folks out there, we'd help ruining some perfectly good businesses and thereby create more poverty than we would actually eradicate. Money which does not circulate might as well not be there.
Best regards
AN2 Driver.
Oh dear. What about the large proportion of the population who don't have access to a car - are they dead then, or just invisible to you? Except of course when you're employing them to do menial jobs that you don't feel like doing yourself?
And something else. Nobody of us who would forego flying out of sympathy for the "poor" would do them a favour. Nor if we forego all "luxury". Every past time generates jobs. Aviation generates a lot of them. If we were to give up, we'd end up with another batch of unemployed folks out there, we'd help ruining some perfectly good businesses and thereby create more poverty than we would actually eradicate. Money which does not circulate might as well not be there.
Best regards
AN2 Driver.
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AN2, I visit Switzerland often and I thoroughly enjoy it. I suspect that if you are representative of your fellow countrymen, you are part of the reason that I like it so much.
The anti-aspirationalism that is prevalant in the UK drives me nuts.
I don't go around bragging that I own this or that, but I have absolutely no compunction in revealing it to anyone who's interested.
The success of capitalism is based on the ignorance of the proletariat and always it will be thus.
The anti-aspirationalism that is prevalant in the UK drives me nuts.
I don't go around bragging that I own this or that, but I have absolutely no compunction in revealing it to anyone who's interested.
The success of capitalism is based on the ignorance of the proletariat and always it will be thus.
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Just wait for the bill for your first annual to come along .... then you will know the real cost of aircraft ownership !!!!!.
I hear body parts can be sold in Asia should you find that you need this facility !!!
I hear body parts can be sold in Asia should you find that you need this facility !!!
stickandrudder,
next time you are in the Zürich area, let me know
We do have the same kind of thing here too however, that is why I got quite interested in this thread. Somehow I feel it is one of the primary reasons politics get away with everything they throw at us, because a lot of non-aspirers or otherwise challenged folks feel "serves those rich ba$tards right". that is why I believe we have to stop apologizing and hiding if GA is to have a future in Europe.
salmabambi
Wait for it? I've had about 10 of them on my first plane and 2 on this one plus an engine revision last year. Pilots are supposed to plan and stake out things before they comit to something, owners even more so. Anyone who "discovers" the "true cost of ownership" only after he's had his plane for a while has sadly failed at that. "PPPPP" is not only something we should keep in mind while flying but also before.
Recently, I have been approached by people who know about my buying an airplane and asked to put some of my calcs regarding ownership together in book or booklet form. I am thinking about it, but it will require quite some data collection. This thread somehow encourages me to go ahead, there is just so many myths to dispell it might be worth it.
Best regards
AN2 driver
next time you are in the Zürich area, let me know
We do have the same kind of thing here too however, that is why I got quite interested in this thread. Somehow I feel it is one of the primary reasons politics get away with everything they throw at us, because a lot of non-aspirers or otherwise challenged folks feel "serves those rich ba$tards right". that is why I believe we have to stop apologizing and hiding if GA is to have a future in Europe.
salmabambi
Just wait for the bill for your first annual to come along .... then you will know the real cost of aircraft ownership !!!!!.
Recently, I have been approached by people who know about my buying an airplane and asked to put some of my calcs regarding ownership together in book or booklet form. I am thinking about it, but it will require quite some data collection. This thread somehow encourages me to go ahead, there is just so many myths to dispell it might be worth it.
Best regards
AN2 driver
Pompey till I die
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Ok, pompous post here
It's amazing how many people, when they know you fly and have a ppl, immediately latch onto the cost aspect.
Nobody EVER thinks about the hours and hours of study for the theory exams that you had to put in, or the commitment it takes to obtain your PPL whilst holding down a day job.
Similarly, although I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination but I am comfortable, when ever anybody sees my car or the houses I rent out (at a great loss actually!) everybody latches onto that and thinks how rich I must be rather than the hours, and hours of overtime and the 7 day weeks I worked took to get there.
I started out from comprehensive school on free school meals and with free school uniform but got to where I am through bloody mindedness and fookin hard work.
What I'm trying to say is maybe the problem with society is that everybody is so impressed by and focused on the result but nobody really concentrates on the work that it takes to get there. Which is ironic because it's the work that is in everybody's control. I get, by the time people have maybe come to realise that the prime opportunities may have already passed behind them.
Nobody EVER thinks about the hours and hours of study for the theory exams that you had to put in, or the commitment it takes to obtain your PPL whilst holding down a day job.
Similarly, although I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination but I am comfortable, when ever anybody sees my car or the houses I rent out (at a great loss actually!) everybody latches onto that and thinks how rich I must be rather than the hours, and hours of overtime and the 7 day weeks I worked took to get there.
I started out from comprehensive school on free school meals and with free school uniform but got to where I am through bloody mindedness and fookin hard work.
What I'm trying to say is maybe the problem with society is that everybody is so impressed by and focused on the result but nobody really concentrates on the work that it takes to get there. Which is ironic because it's the work that is in everybody's control. I get, by the time people have maybe come to realise that the prime opportunities may have already passed behind them.
It's amazing how many people, when they know you fly and have a ppl, immediately latch onto the cost aspect.
Nobody EVER thinks about the hours and hours of study for the theory exams that you had to put in, or the commitment it takes to obtain your PPL whilst holding down a day job.
What I'm trying to say is maybe the problem with society is that everybody is so impressed by and focused on the result but nobody really concentrates on the work that it takes to get there. Which is ironic because it's the work that is in everybody's control. I get, by the time people have maybe come to realise that the prime opportunities may have already passed behind them.
I almost got into a fight not too long ago with some pensioner who went on about "at our times we had not..." Well, sorry, is that my fault? What if they had gotten of their behinds and done something about it? But of course moaning and groaning is so much easier than actually doing something.
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I almost got into a fight not too long ago with some pensioner who went on about "at our times we had not..." Well, sorry, is that my fault? What if they had gotten of their behinds and done something about it? But of course moaning and groaning is so much easier than actually doing something.
Yep, I´m referring to WWII; or there abouts.
Just being facetious of course………
Not the best time to be alive back then, for obvious reasons; but from an aviation point of view it must have been "great", so to speak.
In those days guys learned how to fly Spitfires & Hurricanes just like that and they were kicked out to solo before they even had the time to pronounce "PPL".
Of course, drastic times calls for drastic measures…………and the non-combat accident rate was rather high, but I believe there was a generation of pilots that learned how to fly, (voluntarily or not); which subsequently turned obsolete after all the dust settled.
After that however, I imagine private aviation must have been VERY expensive in the 50´s & 60´s, very elite………..unless you had your own warbird droppin´ out of the sky and into your back garden perhaps………..did anybody restore "wounded" warbirds privately back then?
Were you even allowed to? I have no idea………...
Only late 60´s and in the 70´s Cessna and the likes came out with the GA type of models that we know today………is that correct? That is what I normally see and read……….I´m no expert.
Speaking for myself, I own a Cessna 150 "type of plane", classed "LSA"; and I find it relatively affordable, compared to the expenses of others: fancy cars, clothes, holidays and hobbies!
To be a member at my local golf club for instance, (or so I have been told) you spend something equal to the purchase prize of my Rotax 914.
Priorities………..
###Ultra Long Hauler###
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Well well, I find that absolutely astonishing after a demanding event such as WWII.
You learn something every day………but like you said, in the U.S!
I guess in Europe there was a big chunk of pilots that did not have the resources to continue flying, am I right?? Although I think for a lot of them flying had too much to do with war and death anyway, I guess.
Again, thank you. The early Cessna´s (and G.A in general) I see and hear about are more from the late 50´s / 60´s and upwards!! Get my drift??
So, back on topic: you reckon that flying these days is considered more "elite" than back in the early days of G.A??? Is that fair to say?
How about the U.K? Could you take off the guns of any (enemy) warbird, patch it up and fly it privately in the late 40´s / 50´s??
Cheers!!
###Ultra Long Hauler###
I guess in Europe there was a big chunk of pilots that did not have the resources to continue flying, am I right?? Although I think for a lot of them flying had too much to do with war and death anyway, I guess.
So, back on topic: you reckon that flying these days is considered more "elite" than back in the early days of G.A??? Is that fair to say?
Cheers!!
###Ultra Long Hauler###
Last edited by Ultra long hauler; 4th Aug 2011 at 04:05.
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My uncle used to fly spotter planes in the Royal Artillery during WWII which I believe were basically Austers. He bought an ex army one in 1946 for £5. There were loads of a/c up for sale for virtually nothing after WWII, I believe you could buy a Tiger Moth for around ten or twenty quid.
I don't think it was considered elite as such (you certainly wouldn't think so if you met my uncle who is still alive and well and will bore you to death about Italy and dodging ME 109's) I think it was more that the general public just didn't know that aviation was so cheap and attainable. Unc left the army and went back to his former trade of driver on steam locomotives, I know he kept his Auster until the 60's when the cost of maintenance finally made him give it up.
I must take him flying.
I don't think it was considered elite as such (you certainly wouldn't think so if you met my uncle who is still alive and well and will bore you to death about Italy and dodging ME 109's) I think it was more that the general public just didn't know that aviation was so cheap and attainable. Unc left the army and went back to his former trade of driver on steam locomotives, I know he kept his Auster until the 60's when the cost of maintenance finally made him give it up.
I must take him flying.
Last edited by thing; 4th Aug 2011 at 08:06.
