Aircraft ownership - how can we dispel the rich toy myth?
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No, my math was off as pointed out by MicahelJP. Unless you put a price on your time, it doesn't make sense unless you're in maybe an old Jodel or Luton or something.
The problem, guys, is that our politicians think pretty much like gasax. Quite a few because they don't know any better but a lot of them who actually do but feel that smashing GA is good for the votes. So they lie about it, like they lie about everything else to get a few extra votes.
Avoid imitations
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Some of them get more in handouts than she does in salary after tax, and I'm not exaggerating.
Also, one unmarried couple living less than five minutes walk from here qualify for benefits because the "husband", an ex window cleaner, can apparently no longer work up a ladder due to his "bad knees".
They go "on holiday" about three or four times a year and come back with suitcases loaded with cheap cigarettes and liquor "all for their own use" of course. We know where it goes because we have been offered it for a price, and refused to buy. The ex window cleaner seems to have no problem carrying these very heavy suitcases. They obviously have no problems finding the fines for taking the kids on holiday outside of school holiday times.
They own three houses.....
Is there an equivalent to the EAA's Young Eagles program in the UK? Where kids of lesser means get the opportunity to fly and get in contact with aviation.
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Adam, even though your Budapest math was wrong I wouldn't be discouraged - it would be a fun trip to make
I tell people I own an aircraft but I also usually tell them my type is not as expensive as they might think.
BTW I do use mine for business trips but always have a backup plan for public transport. I don't mind admitting that I was really pleased to win one contract partly because the client is very near a nice GA airfield and the trip by air actually does save time and money over car or train!
I tell people I own an aircraft but I also usually tell them my type is not as expensive as they might think.
BTW I do use mine for business trips but always have a backup plan for public transport. I don't mind admitting that I was really pleased to win one contract partly because the client is very near a nice GA airfield and the trip by air actually does save time and money over car or train!
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Gasax - please don't ever talk to me like that again. You don't know where I've come from, what I've sacrificed and how f**king hard I've worked in my life to be able to be where I am. You think I'm going to Budapest because I want to? You think I have a choice? Let me know when you post here under your own name like I do and until then, don't you dare judge me or how I put food on my table
So you have worked hard - so what? Millions of people have. The fact is that you - and I, enjoy a good, possibly very good standard of living. Yes that brings some obligations - like having to travel for business and be in certain places (in my case some quite unpleasant places) some of the time. But do not imagine for one second that you can convince my butcher that you are not 'rich' or 'well off' or whatever phase you want to describe it with. Setting scenarios where a return home is little more than a convenience or whim is not going to convince many people of the necessity.
How do you justify it or argue it as an aircraft owner when that inevitable discussion comes up?
And yes there has been an equivalent in the UK to the EAA Young Eagles, I racked up over 50 odd flights whilst it was running - regrettably potential liability issues seem to have largely killed it off.
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But do not imagine for one second that you can convince my butcher that you are not 'rich' or 'well off'
I can only view the kind of people who look upon others success as being somehow "wrong" in one way; pathetic. Sadly, they form a large part of the vote, and are destroying Europe by trying to drag everyone down to their pitiful little level. I fear the US is going to go the same way; these people really should not be allowed to get involved in the democratic process!
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This makes me think about something else:
Is it wrong nowadays to be 'rich' or richer than someone else?
Some people buy audi's others buy an airplane, nothing wroing with it. It's your money. You decide, and no one else!
Is it wrong nowadays to be 'rich' or richer than someone else?
Some people buy audi's others buy an airplane, nothing wroing with it. It's your money. You decide, and no one else!
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Fly from US coast to coast and report back on what you find!
Is it wrong nowadays to be 'rich' or richer than someone else?
Adam,
Yep and then wonder why we are running out of youngsters who want to fly?
Pace,
Remember the old repeated story of the 2 pairs of father and son at the airshow? An American dad with his son stands on one side of a nice airplane on display, a European to the other. Sais the US father: "Son, if you work hard and never loose your goal out of sight, one day you can proudly own one of these!" Sais the European: "Would you just look at this decadence! That is what the Mafiosi buy to impress their mistresses!"
Told often, probably never happened but very true nevertheless.
Funny you should say that. I did watch one of the movies released by the German paper "Pilot und Flugzeug" about their readers trips, I believe this one to far east. One statement I never forgot goes about like that: You can determine the degree of personal freedom a country allows it's people by whether they allow private aviation on a broad basis.....
@contacttower
Well, maybe it should become one. What do you think will be next after GA is anihilated? The same people see us all riding bicycles as in Bejing. GA is just their training ground.
It has a lot to fear from European politics and if your MP's want to differentiate from that, they should take a look at France, who now will introduce a NATIONAL IR rating and b*gger EASA.
If it's straight lack of understanding then that is why I believe we need to get the message out, loud and clear. No, we are not posh stupid playboys with too much money in our pocket, we are normal people like everyone else who want to do nothing else than pursue our vision of happiness. Like the guys with the Harleys, like people who do anything sensible with their time. We take pride in our ambition and the will to get where we want. ANYONE can, but it takes getting out of your comfort zone from time to time and do something. Or else, stay there and shut up.
Like Adam sais, it takes HARD WORK to get someplace, hard work to be able to afford maybe a tad more than others. Any country who measures its society by the homeless or unemployed will soon end up having more and more of them.
@gasax
And what authority has a butcher got to question if I should be allowed to fly? Don't know about UK butchers but those I know here do well (and I know a few as besides flying I do a pretty decend BBQ or so I am told and good relations to that trade contribute to that particular success 
) and I know some who fly themselfs. Those who usually throw tantrums are intellectual figures, not butchers who actually know what WORK means. No, the people who really are a pita are usually university trained troublemakers who proclaim socialism with their glass of champaign and caviar amuse bouche in both hands. The worst anti GA crowd comes out of that hole, political control freaks, green with environmentalism and envy (note how the two go together colourwise) and generally just 
. Those who will tax the out of us in an effort to subdue any freedom? Who would love to cash in all our wages and maybe pay us an allowance so they can finance all their garbage programs and what else?
That is the folks to be wary of, not butchers or other honest trades.
@katamarino
You say exactly what the problem is in Europe. And yes, since a while the same tendency shows in the US, very true but I think they will not subdue the will for freedom in that country so easily as they do it here. Europeans of many countries are used to regimes who will tell them what to do or else. I am not that sure if they are such a large part of the voting people, but certainly they form a large part of the political leadership of today.
@Poeli
Exactly. And that is what Adam's original question amounts to. The other day I did exactly that: I pointed one of the most vocal critics of my flying to planecheck and ran a "All airplanes" search sorted by ascending asking prices. The other tab had a car sales website. Let's say that the first several pages of planecheck were airplanes with much lower prices than most cars on the other screen.... made some people think.
Don't ask - don't tell is not for aviators, people.
don't spread the gospel
Pace,
Europe? Sorry but we hate success and cannot wait for those who are successful to fall.
Told often, probably never happened but very true nevertheless.
But really Europe is all about state control! Aircraft for the masses and GA doesnt fit well in that political aim.
@contacttower
I don't think GA is really a hot political issue in the UK though...
I don't think UK GA has too much to fear from politics, and when it does there are better arguments to be made for it than trying to explain to people who don't know about aviation why owning a light aircraft is not "posh". Most of the time it is not an envy thing as such more just a straightforward lack of understanding...for example most of the people who complain about noise in rural areas near airfields are certainly not poor by any stretch of the imagination.
If it's straight lack of understanding then that is why I believe we need to get the message out, loud and clear. No, we are not posh stupid playboys with too much money in our pocket, we are normal people like everyone else who want to do nothing else than pursue our vision of happiness. Like the guys with the Harleys, like people who do anything sensible with their time. We take pride in our ambition and the will to get where we want. ANYONE can, but it takes getting out of your comfort zone from time to time and do something. Or else, stay there and shut up.
Like Adam sais, it takes HARD WORK to get someplace, hard work to be able to afford maybe a tad more than others. Any country who measures its society by the homeless or unemployed will soon end up having more and more of them.
@gasax
But do not imagine for one second that you can convince my butcher that you are not 'rich' or 'well off' or whatever phase you want to describe it with. Setting scenarios where a return home is little more than a convenience or whim is not going to convince many people of the necessity.
) and I know some who fly themselfs. Those who usually throw tantrums are intellectual figures, not butchers who actually know what WORK means. No, the people who really are a pita are usually university trained troublemakers who proclaim socialism with their glass of champaign and caviar amuse bouche in both hands. The worst anti GA crowd comes out of that hole, political control freaks, green with environmentalism and envy (note how the two go together colourwise) and generally just . Those who will tax the out of us in an effort to subdue any freedom? Who would love to cash in all our wages and maybe pay us an allowance so they can finance all their garbage programs and what else? That is the folks to be wary of, not butchers or other honest trades.
@katamarino
I can only view the kind of people who look upon others success as being somehow "wrong" in one way; pathetic. Sadly, they form a large part of the vote, and are destroying Europe by trying to drag everyone down to their pitiful little level. I fear the US is going to go the same way; these people really should not be allowed to get involved in the democratic process!
@Poeli
Some people buy audi's others buy an airplane, nothing wroing with it. It's your money. You decide, and no one else!
Don't ask - don't tell is not for aviators, people.
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Reading through your last post AN2 Driver I find myself constantly nodding in agreement with all of your points.
An interesting point is that many smaller aircraft types, e.g. microlights have similar buying & running costs to new family cars... so you don't really have to be "rich" as such to fly.
I found when I was learning to fly that many people commented along similar lines to the stereotypes being expressed here. "Bloody hell you must be loaded mate!" for example. No Smithy never was and is not "loaded" by any means. Yes I admit I am comfortable at the moment and appreciate what I have got, but I work for it and that' my business, no-one elses.
Inevitably the topic of conversation changes to "How much does that cost you then?". Non-aviation folks baulk at the hourly cost of rental. Fair enough I think we all do. But then I ask them what they spend per month on their shiny new Mondeo/Insignia/Megane/whatever other ugly modern twatmobile they've just bought, or how much they spend/waste going out on the sauce every Saturday night, or how much they spend on designer clothes etc. Suddenly sense is seen and they realise that in the grand scheme of things it isn't actually that unaffordable compared with everything else, and that Smithy isn't some elite yuppie with an elite hobby.
I am and forever shall be eternally grateful for the few hours per month I manage to afford in 1980s Pipers for my own enjoyment. While I welcome with open arms anyone who would like to join me in taking part in said hobby it isn't anyone else's business to judge what I get up to in my spare time with my earnings and if someone doesn't like it because of whatever bigoted reasons then that says more about them and their state of mind than anything else...
Smithy
An interesting point is that many smaller aircraft types, e.g. microlights have similar buying & running costs to new family cars... so you don't really have to be "rich" as such to fly.
I found when I was learning to fly that many people commented along similar lines to the stereotypes being expressed here. "Bloody hell you must be loaded mate!" for example. No Smithy never was and is not "loaded" by any means. Yes I admit I am comfortable at the moment and appreciate what I have got, but I work for it and that' my business, no-one elses.
Inevitably the topic of conversation changes to "How much does that cost you then?". Non-aviation folks baulk at the hourly cost of rental. Fair enough I think we all do. But then I ask them what they spend per month on their shiny new Mondeo/Insignia/Megane/whatever other ugly modern twatmobile they've just bought, or how much they spend/waste going out on the sauce every Saturday night, or how much they spend on designer clothes etc. Suddenly sense is seen and they realise that in the grand scheme of things it isn't actually that unaffordable compared with everything else, and that Smithy isn't some elite yuppie with an elite hobby.
I am and forever shall be eternally grateful for the few hours per month I manage to afford in 1980s Pipers for my own enjoyment. While I welcome with open arms anyone who would like to join me in taking part in said hobby it isn't anyone else's business to judge what I get up to in my spare time with my earnings and if someone doesn't like it because of whatever bigoted reasons then that says more about them and their state of mind than anything else...
Smithy
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Is there an equivalent to the EAA's Young Eagles program in the UK? Where kids of lesser means get the opportunity to fly and get in contact with aviation.
The Air Scouts are running Aviation camps which include an air experience flight as part of getting Aeronautics/ Navigation badges but this is obviously restricted to Scouts and not the general public.
Something to remember that GA is a minority activity and like motorcycling is considered to be low on the political agenda especially when it comes to gathering votes. We will always be worse off than activities that command millions of participants.
Also Human beings are Herd animals and any individual who does not conform with the "norm" is frowned upon.
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Adam, it seems most people on this forum are in England. It may be difficult to fight the "only the rich own airplanes" attitude there. I have justified my desire to buy one by simply pointing at the cost of trucks. I will buy a plane. I am not sure which one, but I will. The cost of the planes I have looked at range from $80K to $100K (they're old). Well, the pickup trucks that I look at cost about $50K. In my family we own 3 trucks that averaged $30K. Well, that's the price of one airplane. And we are not rich by any measure! Seriously, people will spend thousands of dollars on all sorts of frivolous things to impress others. A decent sailboat costs a good $100k. How many non-rich people own one and they can't even sail it. They use it as a prop in the yacht club setting. We will spend the same thousands of dollars on an airplane that can take us places, and more importantly, that we can use to poke holes in the sky, and that's all that matters.
I used to think my shiny new truck would attract the hard body young ladies that like to ride horses. My horse didn't help, so maybe my truck would. Not so lucky. Even the addition of a German Shepherd didn't help. I guess I should have gone with a Ferrari. I have to work on my trucks (no new ones for me, and I wont pay a mechanic's fee) and spend my time discussing parts at the parts counter with a pimply faced punk that doesn't know a starter from a spark plug. Not so different from your sitting around the leaky club house drinking tepid tea.
I think I want a Cherokee 6/300. It's not as sexy as a Beechcraft King Air, but it will do. Since I am older now, and have been married 31 years, I don't worry about getting laid as often. But it sure would be nice to be surrounded by a bunch of hotties. But even if they like the Cherokee, I'll have to park it at the lake or on the University campus for them to even see it. The girls don't like to go to yucky airports unless you are taking them to the Cayman Islands.
Just tell people that the plane was left to you by a stranger that you helped on the side of the road one foggy night. You will be viewed as a kind, gentle soul and that might help. The discussion in the clubhouse might even be more entertaining.
I used to think my shiny new truck would attract the hard body young ladies that like to ride horses. My horse didn't help, so maybe my truck would. Not so lucky. Even the addition of a German Shepherd didn't help. I guess I should have gone with a Ferrari. I have to work on my trucks (no new ones for me, and I wont pay a mechanic's fee) and spend my time discussing parts at the parts counter with a pimply faced punk that doesn't know a starter from a spark plug. Not so different from your sitting around the leaky club house drinking tepid tea.
I think I want a Cherokee 6/300. It's not as sexy as a Beechcraft King Air, but it will do. Since I am older now, and have been married 31 years, I don't worry about getting laid as often. But it sure would be nice to be surrounded by a bunch of hotties. But even if they like the Cherokee, I'll have to park it at the lake or on the University campus for them to even see it. The girls don't like to go to yucky airports unless you are taking them to the Cayman Islands.
Just tell people that the plane was left to you by a stranger that you helped on the side of the road one foggy night. You will be viewed as a kind, gentle soul and that might help. The discussion in the clubhouse might even be more entertaining.
Reading through your last post AN2 Driver I find myself constantly nodding in agreement with all of your points.
Yes I admit I am comfortable at the moment and appreciate what I have got, but I work for it and that' my business, no-one elses.
Non-aviation folks baulk at the hourly cost of rental. Fair enough I think we all do. But then I ask them what they spend per month on their shiny new Mondeo/Insignia/Megane/whatever other ugly modern twatmobile they've just bought, or how much they spend/waste going out on the sauce every Saturday night, or how much they spend on designer clothes etc. Suddenly sense is seen and they realise that in the grand scheme of things it isn't actually that unaffordable compared with everything else, and that Smithy isn't some elite yuppie with an elite hobby.
it isn't anyone else's business to judge what I get up to in my spare time with my earnings and if someone doesn't like it because of whatever bigoted reasons then that says more about them and their state of mind than anything else...
Best regards
An2 Driver
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Anyone enjoying life, which is hard enough these days even without those bundle of joy's, is suspect, a waster and someone who needs re-education.
(People who put grocer''s' apo's'troph'e's in plur'al's' are also in need of re-education BTW. It doesn't half detract from trying to read what they're trying to say, so is a real barrier to communication.)
If by "anyone enjoying life" you mean the poor souls frequently reported in the media who through no fault of their own find it impossible to pay back the £37,000 they've borrowed on credit cards to spend on night clubs and clothes, then yes, "suspect, a waster and someone who needs re-education" would seem a reasonable description.
The people I am talking about are those who have the means but don't use them. Maybe it's more a problem where I live and in places I have relations to, but there is is ridiculous how people sit on their cash and will shout abuse at anyone having a holiday or even going for a coffee in a restaurant, let alone fly an airplane. By their own choice but yet to "impress" others with their miser attitude. And as far as I can see, folks like that are prominently sitting in all sorts of political movements trying to forbid everything. Pal of mine calls them Taliban-Misers. I call them killjoys amongst other things.
You quote the exact opposite. Of course there are people like that also in GA but I'd say probably a lot less than generally.
(People who put grocer''s' apo's'troph'e's in plur'al's' are also in need of re-education BTW. It doesn't half detract from trying to read what they're trying to say, so is a real barrier to communication.)
Unfortunately, English is not my first language.... Thanks for pointing it out.
Thank you very much Silvaire.
No, English is not my first language. I am Swiss, means I grew up with German. We do learn French in school before English (at least when I was there it was still like that). And out of necessity, I also speak a bit of Bulgarian.
I have to say however that English now is a large part of my life. I speak it on a regular basis at home, I watch movies and read books in their original language whenever I can. Most my recreational and professional writing is in English as well as German. I have spent time in the UK and US, although never as a resident.
Glad you agree. I've seen too much of it in recent years to stomach. I am not a rich man, just a simple employee who's been working damn hard for all my life, so I really do not need anyone to tell me how or if I should spend my money. I've had two close friends who never got to enjoy the fruits of their labour and I don't wish to join them in that. Apart, I've made the mistake once to put off things which I could have done at the time, but can't do now. Chances never come back. So I've decided for myself to live as I can, enjoy what I can while it lasts.
Even if things should happen which might make me wish to have saved more, they can maybe take my money, but they can't take away my memories of flights, travels and good times. I have some, some of which cost "unreasonable" amounts for me at the time, yet which I cherish. Buying theater tickets in London for a then whopping £70 a piece to see the original screening of Chess (Elaine Paige), then the next day walking into the lobby of a theater at Picadilly because it was English weather, ending up buying a ticket and seeing the original of "Run for your wife" with Eric Sykes, Terry Scott and Bernard Bresslaw, won't come back, will it. Flying my then Cessna 150 down to Spain and back in one day.... yea, crazy stuff. Doing my AN2 rating in Bulgaria when most people in central Europe didn't know either what an AN2 is nor where Bulgaria is. But I loved it. And I want more of it.
Best regards
AN2 Driver.
No, English is not my first language. I am Swiss, means I grew up with German. We do learn French in school before English (at least when I was there it was still like that). And out of necessity, I also speak a bit of Bulgarian.
I have to say however that English now is a large part of my life. I speak it on a regular basis at home, I watch movies and read books in their original language whenever I can. Most my recreational and professional writing is in English as well as German. I have spent time in the UK and US, although never as a resident.
Your point about negative popular culture constraining people who would otherwise have more to offer, and get more out of life, is excellent.
Even if things should happen which might make me wish to have saved more, they can maybe take my money, but they can't take away my memories of flights, travels and good times. I have some, some of which cost "unreasonable" amounts for me at the time, yet which I cherish. Buying theater tickets in London for a then whopping £70 a piece to see the original screening of Chess (Elaine Paige), then the next day walking into the lobby of a theater at Picadilly because it was English weather, ending up buying a ticket and seeing the original of "Run for your wife" with Eric Sykes, Terry Scott and Bernard Bresslaw, won't come back, will it. Flying my then Cessna 150 down to Spain and back in one day.... yea, crazy stuff. Doing my AN2 rating in Bulgaria when most people in central Europe didn't know either what an AN2 is nor where Bulgaria is. But I loved it. And I want more of it.
Best regards
AN2 Driver.
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A car is a necessity for life in the Western world
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Oh dear. What about the large proportion of the population who don't have access to a car - are they dead then, or just invisible to you? Except of course when you're employing them to do menial jobs that you don't feel like doing yourself?
You seem to be on the defensive on behalf of the poor & destitute, which is commendable, but please try to understand that the rest of the world is not going to happily walk about in rags, looking for their lunch in skips just to make themselves equal.
Some of us may be a little better off than others but many of us have worked hard to be so. Please stop trying to make us feel guilty for "making it".
Most of us feel sorry for the hard working less well off, but until it becomes convention to share & pool all financial resources so that everyone on this planet is equally well off or poor depending how the sums work out, then there will always be them that have & them that have not.
You must agree that in your world of council flats & high rise slums there are a large number of downright lazy unemployable bums that we do not feel sorry for. There are also many in the same places that don't deserve to be there.
I left the Navy in 1967 & lived in a miserable flat, shared drying green etc while I drove busses for a living.
I worked my way from there to a detached cottage with 2 acre, retired toolroom foreman, & a decent pension. Stop trying to make me feel guilty as if I should give it all away to the booze swigging junkies that couldn't see far enough to drive the car that they can't afford since they pissed it all up the wall.