Aircraft ownership - how can we dispel the rich toy myth?
Avoid imitations
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Could you fly all of that VFR? How about an IFR flight?
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Could you fly all of that VFR? How about an IFR flight?
On a different note, Adam, you could save about 500 quid flying (Sl)Easyjet. I do take you point, however, the whole thing done in a private a/c would be much more relaxing and if not cheaper, then at least same price. Yes, you can use light a/c for real transportation.
Avoid imitations
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Of course you could, done something very similar myself a number of times. What you cannot do VFR is to have a precise schedule as Adam has here. For that you need to be able to go IFR and (at least in winter) de-iced.
And is it safe to fly for 13.5 hours out of 24 in a VFR environment in a light aircraft? And expect to be in a fit state to do business on arrival? Then to turn round and do it all again?
Sorry to sound negative but after over three decades of professional flying experience, half military and half civilian, I wouldn't personally want to rely on a light aircraft as a prime mode of transport, certainly not in the European environment.
Flight safety issues come into it, too. Press-on-itis is a dangerous thing. Putting ones self in a situation where "the show must go on" is not a recipe for reaching retirement safely.
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Now, let's look at flying your own aircraft.
Lydd to Budapest: 730nm
Budapest to Plymouth: 930nm
Plymouth back to Lydd: 200nm
TOTAL: 1860nm
Lydd to Budapest: 730nm
Budapest to Plymouth: 930nm
Plymouth back to Lydd: 200nm
TOTAL: 1860nm
Lydd to Budapest: 730nm
Budapest to Plymouth: 930nm
Plymouth to Budapest: 930nm
Budapest to Lydd: 730nm
TOTAL: 3320nm
I love flying but it's not always the cheapest way.
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Adam
Have you tried EasyJet from either Gatwick or Luton? Should get the return cost to budapest down from £500 plus a round trip to £200 a round trip.
You have expensive tastes at £100 for a hotel B&B £30 or a Premier at around £60.
If you rent something like a Cirrus 20 you would be looking at about £2300 for the aircraft or £2500 all in.
What you are saving by flying is time and hassle
Pace
Have you tried EasyJet from either Gatwick or Luton? Should get the return cost to budapest down from £500 plus a round trip to £200 a round trip.
You have expensive tastes at £100 for a hotel B&B £30 or a Premier at around £60.
If you rent something like a Cirrus 20 you would be looking at about £2300 for the aircraft or £2500 all in.
What you are saving by flying is time and hassle
Pace
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You just don't get it do you "Adam I've got a twin engined aircraft but I'm not rich"?
The example you have given is completely incomprehensible to the majority of the working population. The butcher who's views I gave earlier, walks to work - he does not own a car as he has a couple of kids. But you decide that treking across Europe to suite your social arrangments is perfectly resonable.
You can make as many excuses as you want - you simply distance yourself from a larger and larger proporation of the population the more you do it. Given that lack of comprehension you will never see other peoples views - but more importantly they will never see yours.
The example you have given is completely incomprehensible to the majority of the working population. The butcher who's views I gave earlier, walks to work - he does not own a car as he has a couple of kids. But you decide that treking across Europe to suite your social arrangments is perfectly resonable.
You can make as many excuses as you want - you simply distance yourself from a larger and larger proporation of the population the more you do it. Given that lack of comprehension you will never see other peoples views - but more importantly they will never see yours.
Gasax, I see your point but I think there is too much difference of context. As I understand, there is a growing class of poor people in the USA too, but they have their own definition of "poor" there. Your butcher - whose situation I can well imagine, and do NOT envy! - would be considered worse than poor in the USA, as I understand. To NOT own a motorcar is simply unthinkable, over there.
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Thought you had to be back in Budapest after the wedding in Plymouth? Which would make it..
Lydd to Budapest: 730nm
Budapest to Plymouth: 930nm
Plymouth to Budapest: 930nm
Budapest to Lydd: 730nm
TOTAL: 3320nm
Lydd to Budapest: 730nm
Budapest to Plymouth: 930nm
Plymouth to Budapest: 930nm
Budapest to Lydd: 730nm
TOTAL: 3320nm
Gasax - please don't ever talk to me like that again. You don't know where I've come from, what I've sacrificed and how f**king hard I've worked in my life to be able to be where I am. You think I'm going to Budapest because I want to? You think I have a choice? Let me know when you post here under your own name like I do and until then, don't you dare judge me or how I put food on my table.
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There is no issue with flying two 7 hr flights separated by 1 night, in a modern well equipped IFR aircraft, and I have done plenty of ~7hr flights in the TB20, but it will be IMHO extremely tedious not least because the two flights are going to be over the same ground, and getting a reasonably good night's sleep will be more important than usual.
Personally I would choose to stop for 2 or more nights, at that kind of distance. Budapest is quite a pretty town
And you can have an hour in a 7M euro full motion 747NG sim for 300 euros, at the Malev place at the airport
In these situations, if the trip is important on the date(s), one normally buys a backup airline ticket.
Gasax - don't drag others down to your (apparent) level. That is an awfully English habit, and it never does anybody any good.
Personally I would choose to stop for 2 or more nights, at that kind of distance. Budapest is quite a pretty town
And you can have an hour in a 7M euro full motion 747NG sim for 300 euros, at the Malev place at the airport
In these situations, if the trip is important on the date(s), one normally buys a backup airline ticket.
Gasax - don't drag others down to your (apparent) level. That is an awfully English habit, and it never does anybody any good.
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Poor in the USA is actually poor isn't it? In the UK poor just means in receipt of benefits. Of course there are still "odd ball" cases of people living on the street, but I would still imagine life in the USA to be far worse for the truly poor.
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Poor in the USA is actually poor isn't it? In the UK poor just means in receipt of benefits. Of course there are still "odd ball" cases of people living on the street, but I would still imagine life in the USA to be far worse for the truly poor.
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I wish I would get laid left, right and center by young lovely ladies impressed by my aircraft ownership, but the truth is rather more sobering; I'll be sipping awful tepid tea in a leaking club house with other old fogeys nerding out about a strut or a magneto
Fly Conventional Gear
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So what if your mum or whoever else thinks you are mad/trying to be "posh" (whatever that means?)? You enjoy it and clearly are happy to spend money on it...is that not enough?
I understand the point about trying to help GA by dispelling stereotypes but in reality I think those who have a negative or uncomprehending reaction to light aircraft are never going to have much bearing on what happens to GA; I mean those who live near busy airfields will find it annoying...those who don't (the vast majority of people) will neither really know or care.
The word 'rich' itself is rather unhelpful in this case since it is a relative term and although a light twin owner like yourself is likely to be better off than the average guy in the UK if whoever you are talking to can't understand the difference between a owning a Learjet and an Aero Commander then they are probably not worth talking to. But even if you did own a Learjet and were worried/annoyed about what people thought....who cares....
Just tell them you worked really hard and now are reaping the benefits...
Edit to add: So are you going to fly yourself in the end to Budapest?
I understand the point about trying to help GA by dispelling stereotypes but in reality I think those who have a negative or uncomprehending reaction to light aircraft are never going to have much bearing on what happens to GA; I mean those who live near busy airfields will find it annoying...those who don't (the vast majority of people) will neither really know or care.
The word 'rich' itself is rather unhelpful in this case since it is a relative term and although a light twin owner like yourself is likely to be better off than the average guy in the UK if whoever you are talking to can't understand the difference between a owning a Learjet and an Aero Commander then they are probably not worth talking to. But even if you did own a Learjet and were worried/annoyed about what people thought....who cares....
Just tell them you worked really hard and now are reaping the benefits...
Edit to add: So are you going to fly yourself in the end to Budapest?
The problem, guys, is that our politicians think pretty much like gasax. Quite a few because they don't know any better but a lot of them who actually do but feel that smashing GA is good for the votes. So they lie about it, like they lie about everything else to get a few extra votes.
It should not work that way. GA has been far too accomodating and has never made a stand for itself, out of fear that reprecussions might become even more severe. The fact that flying costs have exploded in our faces and EASA doing it's utmost to actually make the "only rich people can fly" myth a reality, should show every one of us what the writing on the wall is.
I did a 2000 NM return journey in a light plane some weeks ago and it pretty much went on schedule. Cost wise, as we were two on board, it was slightly higher than the scheduled services would have been but we took off 10 NM from our home and landed 10NM from our final destination. Total flying time was just under 15 hours, with 2 weeks in between.
Had we taken the scheduled service, we'd have ended up almost 200 NM from our destination. The airport in question not being a mainstream Easy/Ryan/Air Berlin/loco in general hub, the airlines know they can ask what the heck they want and do it with pleasure so the tickets for the two of us would have made up about 80-90% of the all up cost of the plane. BUT that would also have meant 2 additional travel days, time lost, on some of the scariest roads I am aware of in terms of accidents (not a meter worth of motorway included) and a road trip of over 300 NM as roads tend to go around things like mountains e.t.c.
Doing it by light aircraft saved us two days, which we could use to do what we had to do at our destination and in the end, considering a possible car hire e.t.c. came out pretty much equal out with the options we had otherwise. Having done this trip repeatedly by the tpa method (trains, planes, automobiles) I do know in what state you arrive after 2 days of travel.
Unfortunately, the approach gasax and others have to this is, "who do you think you are travelling in the first place?" Sorry folks, if we base the standard of living for EVERYONE on the weakest links in society and call everyone who works hard to be above this level a "filthy rich b*st*rd" then our society has descended into something I don't necessarily want a part of. Raving communists like that do unfortunately exist, but so do people who still have a sense and regard accomplishment as something desirable, not despecable. Maybe that is one of the things which make the difference why flying in the US, where accomplishment is still regardes as an aim worthy of pursuit, is regarded far mor normally as here, where everyone who has managed to climb fractionally about what is considered poverty level is regarded as a crook.
It should not work that way. GA has been far too accomodating and has never made a stand for itself, out of fear that reprecussions might become even more severe. The fact that flying costs have exploded in our faces and EASA doing it's utmost to actually make the "only rich people can fly" myth a reality, should show every one of us what the writing on the wall is.
I did a 2000 NM return journey in a light plane some weeks ago and it pretty much went on schedule. Cost wise, as we were two on board, it was slightly higher than the scheduled services would have been but we took off 10 NM from our home and landed 10NM from our final destination. Total flying time was just under 15 hours, with 2 weeks in between.
Had we taken the scheduled service, we'd have ended up almost 200 NM from our destination. The airport in question not being a mainstream Easy/Ryan/Air Berlin/loco in general hub, the airlines know they can ask what the heck they want and do it with pleasure so the tickets for the two of us would have made up about 80-90% of the all up cost of the plane. BUT that would also have meant 2 additional travel days, time lost, on some of the scariest roads I am aware of in terms of accidents (not a meter worth of motorway included) and a road trip of over 300 NM as roads tend to go around things like mountains e.t.c.
Doing it by light aircraft saved us two days, which we could use to do what we had to do at our destination and in the end, considering a possible car hire e.t.c. came out pretty much equal out with the options we had otherwise. Having done this trip repeatedly by the tpa method (trains, planes, automobiles) I do know in what state you arrive after 2 days of travel.
Unfortunately, the approach gasax and others have to this is, "who do you think you are travelling in the first place?" Sorry folks, if we base the standard of living for EVERYONE on the weakest links in society and call everyone who works hard to be above this level a "filthy rich b*st*rd" then our society has descended into something I don't necessarily want a part of. Raving communists like that do unfortunately exist, but so do people who still have a sense and regard accomplishment as something desirable, not despecable. Maybe that is one of the things which make the difference why flying in the US, where accomplishment is still regardes as an aim worthy of pursuit, is regarded far mor normally as here, where everyone who has managed to climb fractionally about what is considered poverty level is regarded as a crook.
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Edit to add: So are you going to fly yourself in the end to Budapest?
No, my math was off as pointed out by MicahelJP. Unless you put a price on your time, it doesn't make sense unless you're in maybe an old Jodel or Luton or something.
Everyone seems to come back to the same thing in this thread except for AN2 and a few others. That basically, shut up, enjoy your plane, don't think your special and don't spread the gospel. Rich, posh - call it what you want, it's like the systemic European disease; envy clouds the matter at hand and to be truly accepted in Britain, you have to compete with others not on who's worked the hardest, but who's worked the least and got away with it. It's the upside down world here sometimes, inverse snobbism. "I'm from the street, I'm from the gutter, yeah". After all, this is the only country in the world where East End hard men biographies are constantly printed and constantly on the bestseller list. Says a lot about the aspirations.
Posting this on a US forum would have been a non issue - we would have talked about the question at hand and not this other b****hit. Let me ask you this - how do you broach aircraft ownership in England in the "right" way? And how do you convey that even if you're not well off, you can fly and own an aircraft? The right way. If someone'd worked at McDonalds and earned £15K a year and still managed to own a piece of wood and rag with a fan (which is entirely doable) - what would people have called him?
I can tell you what I'd call him - a hero and an inspiration.
PS. Is there an equivalent to the EAA's Young Eagles program in the UK? Where kids of lesser means get the opportunity to fly and get in contact with aviation.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 27th Jul 2011 at 21:53.
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Some of them get more in handouts than she does in salary after tax, and I'm not exaggerating.
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Adam
You cannot compare the attitude to GA in the USA compared to Europe! in the USA success was always admired and a display of that success was seen by others as a goal for themselves.
Europe? Sorry but we hate success and cannot wait for those who are successful to fall.
I can remember years back on a scheduled flight from Italy being told that I could not take photos over Italy.
Spy in the sky?
But really Europe is all about state control! Aircraft for the masses and GA doesnt fit well in that political aim.
Rich kids in expensive aeroplanes with freedom to fly over god knows what?
Much better to keep aviation to people carriers controlled by the state.
Regulate and dictate I am afraid is the name of the game.
Pace
You cannot compare the attitude to GA in the USA compared to Europe! in the USA success was always admired and a display of that success was seen by others as a goal for themselves.
Europe? Sorry but we hate success and cannot wait for those who are successful to fall.
I can remember years back on a scheduled flight from Italy being told that I could not take photos over Italy.
Spy in the sky?
But really Europe is all about state control! Aircraft for the masses and GA doesnt fit well in that political aim.
Rich kids in expensive aeroplanes with freedom to fly over god knows what?
Much better to keep aviation to people carriers controlled by the state.
Regulate and dictate I am afraid is the name of the game.
Pace