Aircraft ownership - how can we dispel the rich toy myth?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Los Angeles, USA
Age: 52
Posts: 1,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for replying AN2. I'm going to approach it like you said and try to educate and encourage people to not only take up flying whenever I can, but to also become aircraft owners.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Of course if you want really cheap flying than an annex 2 glider is the way to go at a small club, although it you want a reasonably performing glider that isn't a beast to rig then a K6 might fit the bill - with a good pilot they can do 300 km or more on a decent day.
http://www.easa.eu.int/certification...1_Jan_2010.pdf
http://www.easa.eu.int/certification...1_Jan_2010.pdf
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The frozen north....
Age: 49
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Carry a picture of an Evans VP1 in your pocket at all times, that way if you slip up and mention that you own a plane just show them that, they will no longer be jealous, instead they will take pity on you..... 
So far having outright owned my own aircraft (onto my second now) for 3 years after many years of shared ownership its not been a glamorous experience at all, I spend more time in a boiler suit, laying on a cold hangar floor working on the thing than I do flying it !
I've worked hard all my days to be able to afford some nice things but it seems your almost made to hide having these sort of toys. The same goes with exotic cars to the point that I used to positively avoid any conversations that involved cars as I felt I had to explain myself every time for owning one.
Basically just fly it, enjoy it and don’t give a hoot what anyone else thinks....its their ignorance / lack of ambition that’s the issue here not yours...
So far having outright owned my own aircraft (onto my second now) for 3 years after many years of shared ownership its not been a glamorous experience at all, I spend more time in a boiler suit, laying on a cold hangar floor working on the thing than I do flying it !
I've worked hard all my days to be able to afford some nice things but it seems your almost made to hide having these sort of toys. The same goes with exotic cars to the point that I used to positively avoid any conversations that involved cars as I felt I had to explain myself every time for owning one.
Basically just fly it, enjoy it and don’t give a hoot what anyone else thinks....its their ignorance / lack of ambition that’s the issue here not yours...
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: GLASGOW
Posts: 1,289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The issue - UK - is we live in a wee fried country, where the majority, look to the state for support - here we go - and lack any drive and ambition to prosper. Wealth, perceived or not, earned or not, is viewed with envy, not good will.
My friend had the most over the top Rolls Corniche, red with white leather/folding roof. Self made, and loved to show it off.
He told me that he regularly had to clean the spittle off, wipe snot etc whenever he parked it. Final straw was when some clown poured a juice drink over the front seats and ruined the whole lot. Car up for sale - enough he said.
Now start talking aeroplanes and aviation, well, they all love you dont they. Yes I know its wrong, but that is the way it is.
My friend had the most over the top Rolls Corniche, red with white leather/folding roof. Self made, and loved to show it off.
He told me that he regularly had to clean the spittle off, wipe snot etc whenever he parked it. Final straw was when some clown poured a juice drink over the front seats and ruined the whole lot. Car up for sale - enough he said.
Now start talking aeroplanes and aviation, well, they all love you dont they. Yes I know its wrong, but that is the way it is.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,581
Received 439 Likes
on
232 Posts
Adam
Your original post was a tennsy weensy bit showing off
Your original post was a tennsy weensy bit showing off
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 246
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm always happy to revel in the cachet that being an aircraft owner/pilot brings. However, I also let people know how cheaply it can be done and that they ought to come for a ride if they're seriously interested in finding out more.
I basically let people believe I'm a member of a very exclusive club and then invite them to join!
I basically let people believe I'm a member of a very exclusive club and then invite them to join!
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Lichfield, UK
Age: 40
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@AN2 Driver
when you say that a 300 mile road trip will cost £320 in fuel, can i ask what your driving? Sounds like hummer. If i covered 300nm in my car the fuel costs would be around £50, and thats the average family sized petrol car.
So saying that flying is cheaper than driving, well that is true if your cars got a drink problem.
when you say that a 300 mile road trip will cost £320 in fuel, can i ask what your driving? Sounds like hummer. If i covered 300nm in my car the fuel costs would be around £50, and thats the average family sized petrol car.
So saying that flying is cheaper than driving, well that is true if your cars got a drink problem.
Hi stewmath
Well, that is the typical mistake people do with cars, isn't it? We know very well that for the aircraft, it is not only a question of the fuel used but of all the other costs involved as well, insurance, maintenance e.t.c. which gives you a fixed hour rate.
With cars, people often only count the fuel. Why? Because that is what they shell out regularly. But they do not count the other costs. If you want to compare the plane to the car, you need to compare on an even base. Insurance, parking, maintenance, loss of worth (in new cars), e.t.c. with every mile you drive.
In Switzerland, the tax office gives a rate for that, which is the average rate you may deduct for use of your car by kilometer you drive. That is the base I took for this comparison. It will therefore include ALL costs, like with the aircraft. Agreed, that is an average, but about the only readily available one. And I have had to notice that it gets people to think.
@cats:
Why instead? What is wrong with driving to the airport and then take the plane to wherever you need to go? I don't see why owning anything at all which you paid for, you can afford and you use should be in need of an EXCUSE. In aviation, the concept of "best use of equipment" is well known and should come in natural, so why not outside the cockpit as well?
In the places I fly to regularly, there is public transport if I need it or there are people there who'll pick me up. What if I do the politically correct thing and go by train? The train station hardly ever is where I want to go really.
My usual trip will take me to a mid sized city with a public airport, which will take me 4-5 hours by car but 1.4 hours by plane. The difference being at least 3 hours each way. The airport I fly from is less than 10 minutes from my home by car, so I drive there, drop off the car, get to the aircraft and go. On the other end, I can take the local bus if I need to. Door to door, with all that, total trip time will be about 2.5-3 hours. Definitly faster than by scheduled service, which will ask 1 hour check in and boarding, wait for baggage e.t.c. plus which will cost me almost the same in ticketing for a day trip than the plane, and it is still 1-2 hours faster than by car. Looking at it, I can do this trip in one day easily, whereas with the car, driving 10 hours would drain me sufficiently not to do it. If I have 2 on board and double the ticket price, it actually becomes a lot cheaper with the private aircraft than with the scheduled service, which is asking regular tarifs on this route.
when you say that a 300 mile road trip will cost £320 in fuel, can i ask what your driving? Sounds like hummer. If i covered 300nm in my car the fuel costs would be around £50, and thats the average family sized petrol car.
With cars, people often only count the fuel. Why? Because that is what they shell out regularly. But they do not count the other costs. If you want to compare the plane to the car, you need to compare on an even base. Insurance, parking, maintenance, loss of worth (in new cars), e.t.c. with every mile you drive.
In Switzerland, the tax office gives a rate for that, which is the average rate you may deduct for use of your car by kilometer you drive. That is the base I took for this comparison. It will therefore include ALL costs, like with the aircraft. Agreed, that is an average, but about the only readily available one. And I have had to notice that it gets people to think.
@cats:
Show me the pilot that has their plane instead of their car. Almost all of us need cars to get to where the planes are.
And arguing the case of a plane as transport - when you get to the nearest airport to where you really want to be, what then? Taxis? Most airfields (except the large expensive commertical ones) seem to be no-where near any public transport, plus anything saved by flying would rapidly get eroded by getting from the airfield to where you really want to be, unless you are putting a cycle in somewhere.
My usual trip will take me to a mid sized city with a public airport, which will take me 4-5 hours by car but 1.4 hours by plane. The difference being at least 3 hours each way. The airport I fly from is less than 10 minutes from my home by car, so I drive there, drop off the car, get to the aircraft and go. On the other end, I can take the local bus if I need to. Door to door, with all that, total trip time will be about 2.5-3 hours. Definitly faster than by scheduled service, which will ask 1 hour check in and boarding, wait for baggage e.t.c. plus which will cost me almost the same in ticketing for a day trip than the plane, and it is still 1-2 hours faster than by car. Looking at it, I can do this trip in one day easily, whereas with the car, driving 10 hours would drain me sufficiently not to do it. If I have 2 on board and double the ticket price, it actually becomes a lot cheaper with the private aircraft than with the scheduled service, which is asking regular tarifs on this route.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Los Angeles, USA
Age: 52
Posts: 1,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Adam
Your original post was a tennsy weensy bit showing off so you don't get my sympathy
Your original post was a tennsy weensy bit showing off so you don't get my sympathy
The reason I will occasionally talk about it is so other people can get into flying - and other posts to that affect here on this forum on how to attract new pilots back that up. I genuinely want more people to join our ranks and if we can lure them with affordable aircraft ownership, then so be it. All means necessary. Now, if I really wanted to flash, don't you think I would have had a fancy car? My car is 16 years old.
We need to change the attitude to GA and flying. Help out instead. Or did you spunk it all on a new car
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 26th Jul 2011 at 14:04.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Lichfield, UK
Age: 40
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@AN2 Driver
That is fair enough
i didnt realise you was calculating on the basis of all other car costs. In that respect i take back my comment
That is fair enough
i didnt realise you was calculating on the basis of all other car costs. In that respect i take back my comment
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: GLASGOW
Posts: 1,289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Precisely Silvaire, and the US network and GA scene was geared and designed for that. The UK scene, IMHO, never been viewed like that. In recent years the US scene has suferred with the closure of many GA airfields, which makes the concept that little bit harder, but still far more do-able than in the UK. That said, if you want to say travel from Glasgow to London, in your own aeroplane, that is perfectly achievable, and with a bit of planning, and dependant on what your travel plan is, the UK is improving.
We need to change the attitude to GA and flying. Help out instead. Or did you spunk it all on a new car
Cessna, Piper and others didn't build many tens of thousands of 4-seat people movers (complete with velour seats and plastic interior trim ) for doing pattern work or aerobatics. They were designed, built and sold for transporting family, friends, and colleagues from place to place.
@stewmath
That is fair enough i didnt realise you was calculating on the basis of all other car costs. In that respect i take back my comment
Likewise if people quote Ryanair fares to me when talking cost of a trip in my airplane. Well, fine, if Ryanair goes where I want to go to, they are cheaper. But they do not and even if they did, will their schedule match my needs? If they only fly once a day, how much will the hotel and loss of time cost? I once proved to someone that even if Ryan would fly me for free it would still be cheaper for me to do the trip myself, as it would mean the loss of 2 working days plus 2 nights in a high price hotel environment plus plus plus to do the trip with a loco carrier. Do it with a regular one on a daytrip ticket and possibly with 2-3 people and GA will beat the airlines almost every time on short haul.
I got another one for you. People hate me when I do that but it is just as true. What does your TIME cost? Easy. Take your monthly income, divide by the hours you work per month and you got a figure. Apply that to some of your activities and you'll be surprised. I find that if I add time to the equation, the result is even more stunning. Beancounters can be beat with their own wet noodle if one puts one's mind to it
I would love to fly my aircaft around in Europe, shipping it there and back for a two summer period after I retire. If you could arrange to get this all smoothed out over the next 15 years I would be greatly appreciative
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,581
Received 439 Likes
on
232 Posts
AN2, if you need a car to drive to the aircraft, surely you need to factor in your "other" motoring costs, too?
Surely in this case the cost of owning and operating the aircraft is an extra, not an "instead of". If you could rely solely on an aircraft for all your transport it would be different, but you can't do so. The car insurance is already paid for, as is the road tax.
Unless, of course, you are on a "pay per mile" insurance policy (which you might be) and similar for road tax (which you wouldn't be in UK because the option doesn't exist).
Surely in this case the cost of owning and operating the aircraft is an extra, not an "instead of". If you could rely solely on an aircraft for all your transport it would be different, but you can't do so. The car insurance is already paid for, as is the road tax.
Unless, of course, you are on a "pay per mile" insurance policy (which you might be) and similar for road tax (which you wouldn't be in UK because the option doesn't exist).
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Los Angeles, USA
Age: 52
Posts: 1,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First generation, the 520. Mine is from 1953 and they made them from 1951 to 1954 before they introduced the straight 560 with the bigger engines.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Los Angeles, USA
Age: 52
Posts: 1,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can I share an upcoming real world example? I have to go for business thing to Budapest tomorrow, but unfortunately have a wedding I need to attend in Cornwall at the weekend, which means I need to return to Budapest again after that. It's a total nightmare financially, but unfortunately this is what happens sometimes. There's no way of flying directly to Plymouth, so it has to be trains from London and hotels at both ends to be able to make it all work. A perfect real world example of where an aircraft can save you loads of money. I'll start my trip in Hastings as this is where I live:
1. Hastings train to Charing Cross: £30
2. Tube to Paddington: £4
3. Heathrow Express to LHR: £18
4. BA flight return to Budapest: £517
5. When I get back I need to stay overnight in London in a hotel to be able to catch the early train to Plymouth: £100
6. Train Paddington to Plymouth return: £100
7. Extra hotel night in Plymouth because of train times: £100
8. Tube from Paddington Charing Cross: £4
9. Charing Cross to Hastings: £30
10: Back the next day to Charing Cross: £30
11. Another tube: £4
12. Another Heathrow Express: £18
13. BA flight to Budapest Return: £533
12. Heathrow Express coming back: £18
14. Bloody tube: £4
15. Bloody Hastings train: £30
TOTAL: £1540
I've also spent about 25hrs of traveling doing this. I haven't factored in the cost of my time.
Now, let's look at flying your own aircraft.
Lydd to Budapest: 730nm
Budapest to Plymouth: 930nm
Plymouth back to Lydd: 200nm
TOTAL: 1860nm
Let's assume you have a reasonably capable aircraft and that it can cruise at 140kts. This trip would then take 13,5hrs and I'm assuming would burn somewhere around 10gph up high, which at £1.9/L would be around £979. If you take your time in a smaller 152 or similar, you'll probably fly for 18hrs and use 6gph, which ends up being £779.
Obviously, there are other costs attached to this, landing fee's etc, but they are probably marginal, say £100 max. I also haven't taken into the account the depreciation, maintenance, insurance, but even if one did, one would still be in the black quite considerably. Other hand I haven't taken into account the potential of cheaper fuel on the continent which could offset that and the time savings you make.
Total savings in the £500-900 region, depending on how you count. That ain't peanuts.
1. Hastings train to Charing Cross: £30
2. Tube to Paddington: £4
3. Heathrow Express to LHR: £18
4. BA flight return to Budapest: £517
5. When I get back I need to stay overnight in London in a hotel to be able to catch the early train to Plymouth: £100
6. Train Paddington to Plymouth return: £100
7. Extra hotel night in Plymouth because of train times: £100
8. Tube from Paddington Charing Cross: £4
9. Charing Cross to Hastings: £30
10: Back the next day to Charing Cross: £30
11. Another tube: £4
12. Another Heathrow Express: £18
13. BA flight to Budapest Return: £533
12. Heathrow Express coming back: £18
14. Bloody tube: £4
15. Bloody Hastings train: £30
TOTAL: £1540
I've also spent about 25hrs of traveling doing this. I haven't factored in the cost of my time.
Now, let's look at flying your own aircraft.
Lydd to Budapest: 730nm
Budapest to Plymouth: 930nm
Plymouth back to Lydd: 200nm
TOTAL: 1860nm
Let's assume you have a reasonably capable aircraft and that it can cruise at 140kts. This trip would then take 13,5hrs and I'm assuming would burn somewhere around 10gph up high, which at £1.9/L would be around £979. If you take your time in a smaller 152 or similar, you'll probably fly for 18hrs and use 6gph, which ends up being £779.
Obviously, there are other costs attached to this, landing fee's etc, but they are probably marginal, say £100 max. I also haven't taken into the account the depreciation, maintenance, insurance, but even if one did, one would still be in the black quite considerably. Other hand I haven't taken into account the potential of cheaper fuel on the continent which could offset that and the time savings you make.
Total savings in the £500-900 region, depending on how you count. That ain't peanuts.