Prior Permission Required
Agreed to that; but you should differentiate between "rules", coming from authorities, and thus to be basically distrusted BUT open to discussion at least in theory, and "conditions" that originate from private offerers, and are hence beyond discussion.
Rules can't be refused; private offer - and its conditions - can.
Rules can't be refused; private offer - and its conditions - can.
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There are very few real cases for PPR.
The NOTAM system is there so that the guy picking up the phone at the airport doesn't have to say "Runway 27 inoperative" and other repeated stuff 1000 times to 1000 callers each day.
If the a/d operator does not want to repeat the same message 1000 times, it is their own decision; nobody forced the PPR onto them. If they want to - and I'll admit I have also wondered why they want to, but many do - it is their own decision, and they'll have to live with the consequences.
And again I say: there is no strict relation between consulting the Notams - as every pilot should do - and respecting the terms of use of a service offered privately. As long as they don't give out contradictory information
And again I say: there is no strict relation between consulting the Notams - as every pilot should do - and respecting the terms of use of a service offered privately. As long as they don't give out contradictory information
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chevvron
Can you tell us where that 'legal requirement' can be found? 
H.
In the UK, if you land anywhere other than an airport with a 'Public' licence, you are legally required to obtain prior permission
H.
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Silvaire1 - you must remember that the UK (i.e. CAA) philosophy for light aircraft is totally different to the USA (i.e. FAA).
I am curious to know, however, if all USA airfields operate the way you suggest.
If I decide to pop across to Atlanta Hartsfield in my Navajo, can I just call up ATC, get a clearance & land ?
Can I park in an odd corner there so I don't pay ramp fees ?
When I'm ready to leave can I just call the Tower, get a clearance & go ?
I am curious to know, however, if all USA airfields operate the way you suggest.
If I decide to pop across to Atlanta Hartsfield in my Navajo, can I just call up ATC, get a clearance & land ?
How about just landing the aircraft and finding your own parking spot? Stick it in some corner if necessary.
The 'booking out' by phone thing is just crazy
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How about if there isn't a parking spot (which is almost impossible for me to imagine for a light aircraft - airports are big places)
You do not understand the point that IO540 makes. He is referring to the fact that the flight is the responsibility of the pilot, not the airport owner. hence, the pilot should be responsible for, for example, not flying into cranes that are not in fact anywhere near the airport.
The argument that a pilot has ultimate responsibility for safety is not a reason for disregarding conditions that an airport operator imposes on use of the airport, unless the safety of the flight is jeopardised. Phoning for PPR hardly puts a flight in danger!
I think the requirement for PPR is a bit over-done, and if I change my mind in the air then I might call on spec and see if they'll take PPR over the radio. But if I do know where I'm headed, and they want PPR by phone, then I phone. Why on earth not do so?
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If there is a hazard then the airport operator may have a responsibility (and liability) if a pilot has an accident.
For example you do not notam there is a hill nearby. Nor do you need to tell pilots about it in advance.
A PPR phone call could be useful for asking questions like 'are there potholes'? Of course the answer will always be NO. But there often are, and prop strikes are common. Airfields are very well practiced at washing their hands of liability for prop strikes. They are not liable if the pilot was normally competent yet pranged it, but they are liable for a pothole induced strike. PPR is useless for that.
There is no possible reason for PPR by phone. It is just obstinate self importance, and easily defeated with a satphone, or by making a GSM call while flying low
I find PPR especially irritating because, in the European context, a lot of airports want it but many of them (international ones) do not communicate in English.
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Why on earth not do so?
Sometimes it is right and proper that customers should say "enough"!
Yes, it is their air field, but, yes we are their customers. If we cease to be customers, so does the airfield cease to exit. If an airfield insisted on PPR by telephone for no good reason and we all agreed not to go there how long would the field survive?
If we all allow these things to get out of hand for no good reason yet another freedom will be lost. For me a freedom is to bimble sometimes, no plan in mind, to take the opportunity perhaps to drop into X, enjoy a cuppa, chat to another pilot and be on my way. Why - because at the time it seemed like a good idea, but it wasnt necessarily a good idea an hour or so before when I hadnt even set off.
I guess, as with so many things, there is an ever increasing tendency to over regulate. Everyone must wear yellow jackets. Now they are wearing yellow jackets they had better wear yellow hats. You get the drift.
Sometimes it is right and proper that customers should say "enough"!
Yes, it is their air field, but, yes we are their customers. If we cease to be customers, so does the airfield cease to exit. If an airfield insisted on PPR by telephone for no good reason and we all agreed not to go there how long would the field survive?
If we all allow these things to get out of hand for no good reason yet another freedom will be lost. For me a freedom is to bimble sometimes, no plan in mind, to take the opportunity perhaps to drop into X, enjoy a cuppa, chat to another pilot and be on my way. Why - because at the time it seemed like a good idea, but it wasnt necessarily a good idea an hour or so before when I hadnt even set off.
Sometimes it is right and proper that customers should say "enough"!
Yes, it is their air field, but, yes we are their customers. If we cease to be customers, so does the airfield cease to exit. If an airfield insisted on PPR by telephone for no good reason and we all agreed not to go there how long would the field survive?
If we all allow these things to get out of hand for no good reason yet another freedom will be lost. For me a freedom is to bimble sometimes, no plan in mind, to take the opportunity perhaps to drop into X, enjoy a cuppa, chat to another pilot and be on my way. Why - because at the time it seemed like a good idea, but it wasnt necessarily a good idea an hour or so before when I hadnt even set off.
You could go to Popham, where I know somebody who was ordered to remove his yellow jacket, because it made it look like he was trying to look official rather than just a visitor. And EGHP is only PPR to non-radio traffic. (Personally I do dislike mandatory hi viz inthe daytime, the need for which, I really do believe is completely unproven).
Simple!
G
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again.... PPR is usually only at special airfields, not public ones. It is usually for the times outside of the published opening hours. If no opening hours are published, then it's PPR. During published opening hours, just fly there.
If a shopping mall is closed, their parking lot is often also closed.. it IS private property after all. If YOU own a lot, would you want people to just drive on it when they want or even park on it when THEY want? I doubt it. And that's the same with PPR fields! I have no problem with it.
PPR... you either call in advance by phone, or you fly and call in by radio. If they don't allow you to land (no matter what the reason, and enough reasons have already been listed here), then you fly back home or to your alternate.
Calling in advance allows someone to be there when you arrive, unlock the fuel pumps to serve you, give you advice on the conditions, etc. If you don't PPR then expect no one to be there to provide ANY services, including rescue.
Flying in Europe is different then in the States and cannot always be compared, and not just because of the regs. And yes, I have flown in the States (Southern Cal, even once to Catalina... if I remember right, the landing fees there were per person on board).
If a shopping mall is closed, their parking lot is often also closed.. it IS private property after all. If YOU own a lot, would you want people to just drive on it when they want or even park on it when THEY want? I doubt it. And that's the same with PPR fields! I have no problem with it.
PPR... you either call in advance by phone, or you fly and call in by radio. If they don't allow you to land (no matter what the reason, and enough reasons have already been listed here), then you fly back home or to your alternate.
Calling in advance allows someone to be there when you arrive, unlock the fuel pumps to serve you, give you advice on the conditions, etc. If you don't PPR then expect no one to be there to provide ANY services, including rescue.
Flying in Europe is different then in the States and cannot always be compared, and not just because of the regs. And yes, I have flown in the States (Southern Cal, even once to Catalina... if I remember right, the landing fees there were per person on board).
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Quote:
If I decide to pop across to Atlanta Hartsfield in my Navajo, can I just call up ATC, get a clearance & land ?
You would almost never fly your Navajo into a place like Hartsfield, because there would be several other nearby airports that are focused on GA aircraft like a Navajo. If I'm not mistaken about Atlanta, you might fly your Navajo here:
PDK - DeKalb Peachtree Airport
Answering your question about Hartsfield directly, you probably could, but you might have to file IFR in flight and fly an approach. There are people here who could tell you specifics, but I'm not one of them!
Quote:
Can I park in an odd corner there so I don't pay ramp fees ?
There are no ramp fees unless you stay over night, and if you do it might be $5/night. For public parking overnight it is often times an honor system thing: you put the money in a little envelope and stuff it in a slot. Generally, nobody pays much attention to where you park unless you get in the way of the fuel pump or in their tie down spot
Quote:
When I'm ready to leave can I just call the Tower, get a clearance & go ?
Yes. Assuming you're VFR you generally get in, start up, taxi out to the hold line and tell ground your type, number, and what runway you want. The when you're ready to go at the runway, you tell them and they give you a takeoff clearance. Sometimes that is the end of your communication with them.
At a pilot controlled airport you get in, taxi out and go, making radio calls as appropriate and listening for other traffic.
I hope that's clear enough to make sense.
If I decide to pop across to Atlanta Hartsfield in my Navajo, can I just call up ATC, get a clearance & land ?
You would almost never fly your Navajo into a place like Hartsfield, because there would be several other nearby airports that are focused on GA aircraft like a Navajo. If I'm not mistaken about Atlanta, you might fly your Navajo here:
PDK - DeKalb Peachtree Airport
Answering your question about Hartsfield directly, you probably could, but you might have to file IFR in flight and fly an approach. There are people here who could tell you specifics, but I'm not one of them!
Quote:
Can I park in an odd corner there so I don't pay ramp fees ?
There are no ramp fees unless you stay over night, and if you do it might be $5/night. For public parking overnight it is often times an honor system thing: you put the money in a little envelope and stuff it in a slot. Generally, nobody pays much attention to where you park unless you get in the way of the fuel pump or in their tie down spot
Quote:
When I'm ready to leave can I just call the Tower, get a clearance & go ?
Yes. Assuming you're VFR you generally get in, start up, taxi out to the hold line and tell ground your type, number, and what runway you want. The when you're ready to go at the runway, you tell them and they give you a takeoff clearance. Sometimes that is the end of your communication with them.
At a pilot controlled airport you get in, taxi out and go, making radio calls as appropriate and listening for other traffic.
I hope that's clear enough to make sense.
Yes, one can land at Atlanta Hartsfield or Los Angeles International without a PPR. When it's time to depart, just call clearance deliver (since they are surrounded by Class B airspace) and ground control on the radio.
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In England, my limited experience has it that whenever I call up to obtain a PPR, nobody bloody answers. And when you've finally done 15 min of superintendent work and managed to raise someone else on the field that could convey your request, they inevitably always just say "oh, we don't bother with that much, just pop in".
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Easy solution for a pro-PPR airport :
Add 10% to all landing fees, with the proviso that by getting the PPR, a 10% discount on the landing will be given.
If you don't like it, don't go there......
Add 10% to all landing fees, with the proviso that by getting the PPR, a 10% discount on the landing will be given.
If you don't like it, don't go there......
If you want to keep your private strip exclusive (and you well might) then keep it that way. And keep it out of all the farm strip directories so that, god forbid, nobody gets the idea to fly there. But if you have an established airfield, don't go round pretending it is open to inbound aircraft and needs a PPR.
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You could go to Popham, where I know somebody who was ordered to remove his yellow jacket, because it made it look like he was trying to look official rather than just a visitor.
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Then don't go to those minority of airfields who want pre take-off PPR.
You would be surprised who technically ask for PPR - Duxford is of course well known and over the years has been strictly enforced - well the field at Duxford I believe is owned by the County Council - in other words you and I, the taxpayer.
As I said earlier, if the field is privately owned well of course the owners can do what they like but it is pretty stupid to impose unnecessary requirements on customers. As IO says in any other walk of life it is a sure way to end up with no customers! However I think we are all becoming a pretty compliant race so I suppose if the owners insisted we only turn up if we are wearing pink underpants we would!
Now to be clear if I am going somewhere in particular I always look them up in the flight guide and if they request PPR I always (or nearly always) 'phone first. Obviously I dont want to arrive and find they are clsoed for example. My argument is simply against those places that will not accept airborne PPR for no obvious or sound reason.
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Proof PPR required for insurance
Looking through insurance papers from CSP - a major insurance broker:
*******
24. Unlicesed Landing Ground Suitability Clause.
It is understood and agreed that the landing and take-off of the insured aircraft by day on landing grounds other than licnesed airfields are covered under this certificate.
Privided always that:
(a) the Insured and/or the pilot conducting the flight has obtained the permission of the owner or the tenants of the land;
(b) the Insured and/or the pilot condusting the flight has ascertained the suitability of the landing ground and has enquired from the landlord/tenant or from their authorised representative the condition of the landing ground at the expected time of arrival;
(c) the pilot conducting the flight has surveyed the landing ground by flypast or overflight immediately prior to landing.
In the event of a cliam being made under this policy in respect of an accident occurring during the use of such landing ground the onus of proving that (a) (b) (c) above has been complied with shall rest entirely on the Insured.
***************
Worth noting now some licensed airfield - such as Fife/Glenrothes - have chosen to become unlicensed.
And it is illegal in the UK to fly without valid insurance.
*******
24. Unlicesed Landing Ground Suitability Clause.
It is understood and agreed that the landing and take-off of the insured aircraft by day on landing grounds other than licnesed airfields are covered under this certificate.
Privided always that:
(a) the Insured and/or the pilot conducting the flight has obtained the permission of the owner or the tenants of the land;
(b) the Insured and/or the pilot condusting the flight has ascertained the suitability of the landing ground and has enquired from the landlord/tenant or from their authorised representative the condition of the landing ground at the expected time of arrival;
(c) the pilot conducting the flight has surveyed the landing ground by flypast or overflight immediately prior to landing.
In the event of a cliam being made under this policy in respect of an accident occurring during the use of such landing ground the onus of proving that (a) (b) (c) above has been complied with shall rest entirely on the Insured.
***************
Worth noting now some licensed airfield - such as Fife/Glenrothes - have chosen to become unlicensed.
And it is illegal in the UK to fly without valid insurance.
The conditions xrayalpha quotes means that if a pilot lands without prior permission, the airport operator will be uninsured, and potentially liable. Remember that when anyone sues, the lawyers tend to go for everyone, especially the richest party, which in this case might be the airport operator.
So if I or Fuji or IO fly in without prior permission and have an accident for whatever reason, the airport operator ends up losing.
I can see why some operators require PPR and get upset at pilots that put them in jeopardy because they don't believe in PPR.
So if I or Fuji or IO fly in without prior permission and have an accident for whatever reason, the airport operator ends up losing.
I can see why some operators require PPR and get upset at pilots that put them in jeopardy because they don't believe in PPR.
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the Insured and/or the pilot conducting the flight has obtained the permission of the owner or the tenants of the land;