Prior Permission Required
Join Date: Oct 2006
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OK, here goes - about to be shot down in flames!
I thought "PPR - what is that all about. Don't have it in the States and flying is good over there."
Now I own a small grass airfield.
What we don't have over here are "disclaimers". They have them in the States.
What we have here is a "duty of care".
Now, in many cases, what that duty is is not specified. In aviation, if you are a licensed airfield, there are some specs. Things like "twice daily runway inspection", etc. Even that may cause probelsm - think Paris and Concord.
If you are unlicensed - even if only for a tea break! - then other matters come in.
If you choose not to operate in the same manner as a "licensed field" then you may have to justify why.
If, like any hotel or pub car park, you want to restrict liability for, say, theft of a GPS from a parked aircraft while owner is off having lunch, then how do you do it?
My lawyers say, for a contract and conditions to be enforceable then the person must have a chance to refuse to enter the contract. That could be a bit difficult once they are on the ground and parked!
So I am now looking at PPR online. Quite simply, it will allow me to limit liability.
If people go online, accept the T&Cs, then we are happy for them to fly in. If they don't "self PPR", then they cannot complain.
Sorry about the way it is going in the UK (well, we operate under Scots law), but the alternative is to shut down.
And after last year's expereinces, I am not wanting to deal with insurance hassles ever again!
I thought "PPR - what is that all about. Don't have it in the States and flying is good over there."
Now I own a small grass airfield.
What we don't have over here are "disclaimers". They have them in the States.
What we have here is a "duty of care".
Now, in many cases, what that duty is is not specified. In aviation, if you are a licensed airfield, there are some specs. Things like "twice daily runway inspection", etc. Even that may cause probelsm - think Paris and Concord.
If you are unlicensed - even if only for a tea break! - then other matters come in.
If you choose not to operate in the same manner as a "licensed field" then you may have to justify why.
If, like any hotel or pub car park, you want to restrict liability for, say, theft of a GPS from a parked aircraft while owner is off having lunch, then how do you do it?
My lawyers say, for a contract and conditions to be enforceable then the person must have a chance to refuse to enter the contract. That could be a bit difficult once they are on the ground and parked!
So I am now looking at PPR online. Quite simply, it will allow me to limit liability.
If people go online, accept the T&Cs, then we are happy for them to fly in. If they don't "self PPR", then they cannot complain.
Sorry about the way it is going in the UK (well, we operate under Scots law), but the alternative is to shut down.
And after last year's expereinces, I am not wanting to deal with insurance hassles ever again!
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
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Fine for 'small strips' or first time, but is there really any need to phone an "international airport" if you want to drop in there? As the americans would say on the phone if you called them "Eh? It's an airport, of course you can land here ???!?!?!"
Join Date: Jun 2003
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So I am now looking at PPR online
If I was running a strip and opening it to outsiders the thing which would worry me most is somebody having a prop strike.
Airfields work really hard to wash their hands of liability for that, but they are liable, and are vulnerable to either the owner/pilot going after them, or the insurer (having paid out) going after them.
This is a particular bugbear of mine, having had a prop strike and having seen how the system works.
Things I've found out when phoning for PPR...
- The runway was waterlogged
- There was an airshow going on (no, I don't know why it wasn't NOTAMED)
- There was an aerobatic competition going on inside their ATZ, and to avoid flying through the box, I needed to approach from a particular direction.
- There was no fuel
- They have a problem with a particular neighbour, and would appreciate my not flying over him today.
My flight preparation typically takes 30-60 minutes; the cheapest aeroplane I fly costs about £40/hr. A PPR phone call normally takes 2 minutes and costs about 10p.
Why on earth shouldn't I phone for PPR?
G
- The runway was waterlogged
- There was an airshow going on (no, I don't know why it wasn't NOTAMED)
- There was an aerobatic competition going on inside their ATZ, and to avoid flying through the box, I needed to approach from a particular direction.
- There was no fuel
- They have a problem with a particular neighbour, and would appreciate my not flying over him today.
My flight preparation typically takes 30-60 minutes; the cheapest aeroplane I fly costs about £40/hr. A PPR phone call normally takes 2 minutes and costs about 10p.
Why on earth shouldn't I phone for PPR?
G
Join Date: Jun 2003
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Why on earth shouldn't I phone for PPR?
2) Overseas airport - nobody speaks English despite it being International. Only ATC need to speak English.
In the UK, if you land anywhere other than an airport with a 'Public' licence, you are legally required to obtain prior permission (although this can in many cases be on RTF). Filing a flight plan does not constitute requesting prior permission. For instance, if you file Farnborough as an alternate over a weekend, you will probably be refused permission to land unless you declare an emergency due to their weekend movements restriction.
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Filing a flight plan does not constitute requesting prior permission.
They can reply to it easily enough, via the AFTN or to the contact details supplied.
NigelOnDraft, DXWombat, Deeply Concerned, Sammypilot, xrayalpha, Ghengis and chevvron suggested between them 12 different reasons why the airfield might want you to have PPR. Reasons that relate to potential risk, inconvenience or cost (to others, as well as to the happy-go-lucky pilot that comes swanning by).
Reasons suggested against asking for PPR include that they might not answer the phone (Doh!), they might not speak English (I'm told many do in the UK), forgiveness is easier than permission (not really - if you cause danger or inconvenience, they probably won't forgive you!), and that it makes Katamarino laugh.
Very finely balanced argument, I'd say.
Reasons suggested against asking for PPR include that they might not answer the phone (Doh!), they might not speak English (I'm told many do in the UK), forgiveness is easier than permission (not really - if you cause danger or inconvenience, they probably won't forgive you!), and that it makes Katamarino laugh.
Very finely balanced argument, I'd say.
Example: late '70s, Blackbushe, notified as PPR.
The airfield was NOTAMMED closed to all aircraft due to a drag race meeting on the main runway.
STILL a clown in a Seneca landed even though the runway was clearly obstructed with a start line gantry, the pits, and dragsters travelling at up to 200mph. He'd called on the radio, got no reply so assumed Reg was at lunch and landed anyway, but the crux is he hadn't attempted to make contact for PPR.
Doug Arnold got someone in to answer the radio for subsequent drag race meetings.
The airfield was NOTAMMED closed to all aircraft due to a drag race meeting on the main runway.
STILL a clown in a Seneca landed even though the runway was clearly obstructed with a start line gantry, the pits, and dragsters travelling at up to 200mph. He'd called on the radio, got no reply so assumed Reg was at lunch and landed anyway, but the crux is he hadn't attempted to make contact for PPR.
Doug Arnold got someone in to answer the radio for subsequent drag race meetings.
Join Date: May 2001
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I was bimbling along going no where in particular once and thought I would stop at an inviting airfield.
G-XXXX to your south, thought I might drop in .. .. ..
Ground have you requested PPR
G-XXXX no, but I am now
Ground sorry you cant!
G-XXXX if I had 'phoned could I
Ground Maybe
G-XXXX OK I will 'phone
Phone G-XXXX requesting PPR expected in 15 minutes
Ground Phone Have you been before
Phone Yes
Ground No problem
You have guessed it 'phone call made from the aircraft
True story.
G-XXXX to your south, thought I might drop in .. .. ..
Ground have you requested PPR
G-XXXX no, but I am now
Ground sorry you cant!
G-XXXX if I had 'phoned could I
Ground Maybe
G-XXXX OK I will 'phone
Phone G-XXXX requesting PPR expected in 15 minutes
Ground Phone Have you been before
Phone Yes
Ground No problem
You have guessed it 'phone call made from the aircraft
True story.
niknak
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Manners?
Common Courtesy?
Consideration for others?
Three factors often missing in all walks of todays society and too often disregarded completely by the ever expanding "why should I care?" contingent in todays GA community.
Common Courtesy?
Consideration for others?
Three factors often missing in all walks of todays society and too often disregarded completely by the ever expanding "why should I care?" contingent in todays GA community.
Join Date: May 2001
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Manners?
Common Courtesy?
Consideration for others?
Three factors often missing in all walks of todays society and too often disregarded completely by the ever expanding "why should I care?" contingent in todays GA community.
Common Courtesy?
Consideration for others?
Three factors often missing in all walks of todays society and too often disregarded completely by the ever expanding "why should I care?" contingent in todays GA community.
Where is the lack of manners asking a field if you can land over the radio?
If they dont want you to, go away, and if you havent 'phoned first dont assume you can land - seems simple enough to me.
We seem to forget the sort of flying many of us do should also be "fun". We dont always fly to get from A to B with a particular purpose in mind. What has happened to the days of setting off for an amble, getting half way and thinking why dont I call into x?
I also sail. You dont PPR with marinas which are almost always privately owned. What is the difference?
Avoid imitations
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I also sail. You dont PPR with marinas which are almost always privately owned. What is the difference?
Join Date: May 2001
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Well actually not all true.
Marinas are a lot more costly to visit than most airports. You even pay to tie up to a bouy in an estuary. As to tides yes fortunately these are predictable but there can be other issues with entering marinas - entrances closed or restricted due to dredging for example. I guess it is just a different culture.
Marinas are a lot more costly to visit than most airports. You even pay to tie up to a bouy in an estuary. As to tides yes fortunately these are predictable but there can be other issues with entering marinas - entrances closed or restricted due to dredging for example. I guess it is just a different culture.
NOTAMs distribute aeronautical info in a systematic way so you don't have to call the airport.
Talking on the phone before setting out allows a better briefing, including any topical information, without tying up a radio channel explaining noise sensitive areas or whatever. Maybe they want to point you to a web site to see a map. Bit late if you call when you're in the air.
Like Fuji, I do sometimes decide in mid-air to go somewhere, but always ask "Is PPR on the radio OK?" or some such, and be prepared to go away if not.
The bottom line: airfields are generally private property, and have the right to require PPR by phone. They may not mind if you come along without PPR, but why take the risk if you know before you set out where you're going?
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I have no problem with PPR, but what's the deal with having to "book out" by phone? Why is my initial call to AFIS or A/G "PH-ABC requesting startup for a VFR departure to XXXX, 2 POB, pilot in command is BackPacker" not good enough?
I was at Blackbushe once, in the actual office (portacabin actually) which had the big black "C" on yellow background on it, and I had to phone from that portacabin to somewhere else to leave my details. The big "C", PPR, FPL and GAR notwithstanding.
I was at Blackbushe once, in the actual office (portacabin actually) which had the big black "C" on yellow background on it, and I had to phone from that portacabin to somewhere else to leave my details. The big "C", PPR, FPL and GAR notwithstanding.
Join Date: May 2001
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Why not try it at Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted. Then report back here and tell us how you got on
Secondly I have done it into LAX in the USA. Just requested IFR clearance into 25L at LAX and that was it. Paid $20 for the privilege at the FBO. If you have a helicopter, you can just fly VFR and land on the roof of the international terminal (for free I believe).
Catalina charges $20 landing fee but you still don't need PPR, you just rock up and tell them you're going to land. If you did call the man in the tower, he'd give you the "Of course you can land, it is an airport isn't it?" line
Santa Monica collect landing fees if they feel like it....Of course if it is a private strip you're landing on then manners dictate you phone up beforehand. But if it is an "airport" then why bother. If they have ATIS linked to the phone (like Shoreham) I'll phone that first just to check the relevant info but wouldn't bother with PPR.....
That's because you are only flying into Public airfields.
The airfield was NOTAMMED closed to all aircraft due to a drag race meeting on the main runway.
STILL a clown in a Seneca landed even though the runway was clearly obstructed with a start line gantry, the pits, and dragsters travelling at up to 200mph. He'd called on the radio, got no reply so assumed Reg was at lunch and landed anyway, but the crux is he hadn't attempted to make contact for PPR.
STILL a clown in a Seneca landed even though the runway was clearly obstructed with a start line gantry, the pits, and dragsters travelling at up to 200mph. He'd called on the radio, got no reply so assumed Reg was at lunch and landed anyway, but the crux is he hadn't attempted to make contact for PPR.
Join Date: Oct 2006
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FREDAcheck wrote:
"(Notams) Not always used by UK unlicensed airfields."
Hey, another point for PPR - unlicensed airfields CAN'T issue Notams. Tried and asked for an Open Day with aerobatics, power kites etc and was told "No, you are unlicensed".
Strangely, kites for bird of prey training etc ARE notamed! But not ones on runways!!
Don't you love the paperwork!!
"(Notams) Not always used by UK unlicensed airfields."
Hey, another point for PPR - unlicensed airfields CAN'T issue Notams. Tried and asked for an Open Day with aerobatics, power kites etc and was told "No, you are unlicensed".
Strangely, kites for bird of prey training etc ARE notamed! But not ones on runways!!
Don't you love the paperwork!!