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Ryan, you didn't seem to read the previous entries very well.
I just want to clarify I am talking about this whole idea of PPR for Airports rather than private strips. For this purpose lets assume 'Airport' is a public place established to provide a safe enviroment for the arrival and departure of aircraft. For this service in the UK we pay a fee by way of landing fee's and/or parking fee's. The council run the airport (In my case anyway). I pay my taxes.
Can you please just answer me this. Why on earth must I contact the airport to obtain permission to land there? What are the reasons to justify this folly? (from a public airport point of view please)
I know full well it is not hard to make a telephone call - I have made them before with varying degrees of sucess over the years. It is the principle of having yet another procedure shoved down my throat as if it were law. It is not.
I'll give you an example of a typical UK-GA experience now. Only 2 weeks ago I made the trip across to Prestwick. Before departure I duly contacted one of the handling agents (mandatory handling.... must resist tempation..... rant averted
) who advised me in advance where I can expect to park. They also advised they would 'take care' of the PPR. Wait a second, this implies they will talk to someone after I have finished this phone call to get 'Permission' for me?? I phone someone who phones someone else who says its ok for me to come?! What happens if some urgent element of the PPR message could not be relayed to me as I am now airborne? Do we rely soley on radio communication in such an instance?? On arrival at EGPK I was met at the taxiway by a 'Follow me' van who escorted me off the taxiway to the ramp, placed chocks on my plane and made me a coffee. They also took care of the 'booking out'. (Lest both my FP and GAR should go un-noticed 
) This was all for the very resonable sum of £75!!!!!!!!!!!!
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@Englishal
First, you cannot compare Europe with the USA. I also enjoyed flying in the USA, but it was no fun to land and discover the coffee shop was closed.
Second, of all the airfields in Europe that I have visited with PPR without calling ahead but via radio when arriving, all allowed me to land ... no problem! But, if there was a reason NOT to allow me to land (see other entries), then I would have buggered off. It is really no big deal!
@Ryan
most PUBLIC airfields that I know of have published opening hours and thus NO PPR requirement... except perhaps during after or before those hours.
Believe it or not, it is perfectly safe to fly to an airfield WITHOUT phoning first...Yep, youbetcha it is! Ask any one who flies in America. I have done 600nm cross countries in the USA WITHOUT phoning first. OMG I hear you all gasp, how can it be so!? Well I check the weather, check the flight guide, and ofski I go. Easy as that.
Second, of all the airfields in Europe that I have visited with PPR without calling ahead but via radio when arriving, all allowed me to land ... no problem! But, if there was a reason NOT to allow me to land (see other entries), then I would have buggered off. It is really no big deal!
@Ryan
most PUBLIC airfields that I know of have published opening hours and thus NO PPR requirement... except perhaps during after or before those hours.
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most PUBLIC airfields that I know of have published opening hours and thus NO PPR requirement... except perhaps during after or before those hours.
I also enjoyed flying in the USA, but it was no fun to land and discover the coffee shop was closed.
On arrival the cafe was closed as it is during week days in winter!
First, you cannot compare Europe with the USA.
Perhaps if we did things would not be so bad here.
On arrival at EGPK I was met at the taxiway by a 'Follow me' van who escorted me off the taxiway to the ramp, placed chocks on my plane and made me a coffee. They also took care of the 'booking out'. (Lest both my FP and GAR should go un-noticed ) This was all for the very resonable sum of £75!!!!!!!!!!!!
Always talk to the flying clubs first at big airports in the UK, not handling agents who are just there to make money from big aeroplanes.
G
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Whilst if you'd had the better sense to go through the Prestwick Flight Centre flying club
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Always talk to the flying clubs first at big airports in the UK, not handling agents who are just there to make money from big aeroplanes.
- a lot of airports are wise to it and try to obstruct it, as they try to question people who are flying in "for maintenance" (the man at Bournemouth likes to do that, asking me what kind of maintenance I was having done)
- it doesn't work so well abroad, where nobody at the FC is likely to speak English
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n England, my limited experience has it that whenever I call up to obtain a PPR, nobody bloody answers. And when you've finally done 15 min of superintendent work and managed to raise someone else on the field that could convey your request, they inevitably always just say "oh, we don't bother with that much, just pop in".
For a trip to Scotland last summer, taking in 6 airports, it took about five days to get answers to all the required phones.
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Drifting slightly - whilst clubs are helpful, you have discovered the flaw - they are NOT there 24/7. I respectfully suggest that if the airfield has more than one FBO / handler you give them a call and get a price BEFORE committing! Personally I always advise a private VFR light single to contact the Flight Centre unless they intend to arrive / depart before or after their operating hours or are arriving from outside the UK . Prices between FBOs vary considerably so please check and make sure that you choose the 'correct' FBO. A phone call is much cheaper than the wrong choice!
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For a trip to Scotland last summer, taking in 6 airports, it took about five days to get answers to all the required phones.
And I should add that I rarely ask about pricing. That would add a whole new level of complexity. The time I do ask about pricing is if going to "strongly suspected ripoff airports"
But on foreign trips I am happy to pay anything under £100; it's not really significant on the scale of fuel, hotels, eating, etc. Parking a car would cost as much at many places.What we are basically seeing here is that a lot of people don't do nontrivial trips. So, they cannot see what the problem is. It's like the GPS debate - if you never fly far from home, navigation is easy.
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I did, but unfortunately as no one was in a position to the answer the phone I had to seek an alternative!
Don't complain about charges if you didn't do your homework properly. A quick giggle search would have shown you that there are two Flying Clubs/Centres at Prestwick. Ocean Skies and Greer are commercial enterprises who need to make money from handling.
That is exactly the problem for any nontrivial trip!
And I should add that I rarely ask about pricing. That would add a whole new level of complexity. The time I do ask about pricing is if going to "strongly suspected ripoff airports" But on foreign trips I am happy to pay anything under £100; it's not really significant on the scale of fuel, hotels, eating, etc. Parking a car would cost as much at many places.
What we are basically seeing here is that a lot of people don't do nontrivial trips. So, they cannot see what the problem is. It's like the GPS debate - if you never fly far from home, navigation is easy.
And I should add that I rarely ask about pricing. That would add a whole new level of complexity. The time I do ask about pricing is if going to "strongly suspected ripoff airports"
But on foreign trips I am happy to pay anything under £100; it's not really significant on the scale of fuel, hotels, eating, etc. Parking a car would cost as much at many places.What we are basically seeing here is that a lot of people don't do nontrivial trips. So, they cannot see what the problem is. It's like the GPS debate - if you never fly far from home, navigation is easy.
Yes, I've had problems - having to email people a couple of day before for PPR, calling for PPR on RT and discovering they were closed to making different plans, haggling with flying clubs to avoid paying extortionate handling agent charges. And in Scotland - very careful fuel planning. Ultimately however, I've always managed to achieve more or less what I wanted in the first place.
I think basically if you plan a few days ahead of a non-trivial trip, allow yourself to be a bit flexible, and accept the need for a fair bit of communication, it's really not a problem.
Strangely enough, I've found much the same playing Sky-Gypsy around the USA in a cheap rental. The environment isn't identical, but the basic principles are.
G
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So if you got no answer from the Flying Club why didn't you try the Flight Centre where there is at least one very helpful receptionist?
Don't complain about charges if you didn't do your homework properly.
I have yet to be convinced that PPR serves any meaningful purpose, it is still my contention PPR only serves to make matters 'slightly' less straight forward.
Some people here commenting on the increasing control-freakery of some airfields (follow-me vans, hi-viz, silly bureaucracy and so on). I quite agree. There's a lot of nonsense and quite unnecessary officiousness at some airfields. And PPR usually seems pointless. However, if you are not a regular (and recent) visitor to an airfield you won’t know whether PPR is pointless and (I would say) have no right to ignore it when it's stated as a requirement. If you don't like it, stay away (as several have said they'll do).
I’ve been to more than one airfield where they’ve told me the reason they insist on PPR is because of the grief they get from noise-sensitive NIMBYs and lazy plonkers that don’t read Pooleys/AFE and don’t check the airfield website and quite unnecessarily annoy the neighbours. There's absolutely no excuse for that sort of behaviour, and if PPR helps remind pilots where they shouldn't fly, I don't blame harassed airfields for requiring it.
I'm quite sure no one posting here is a lazy plonker.
How many times has anyone phoned for PPR and taught "JESUS!! I’m so glad I called ahead, they is absolutely no way I would have known about the Nimbys who just moved in to number 29, or there is NO way I would have known they closed for lunch!" NOTAMs anyone?
I'm quite sure no one posting here is a lazy plonker.
Last edited by FREDAcheck; 7th Feb 2011 at 18:54.
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I cannot conceive of requiring 5 days notice to make a trip 500 miles from home taking in 6 airports. A requirement for one day would seem a lot, and 5 days completely removes the utility of light aviation.
Each year I do several long trips, say 30hrs total to Greece and back anbd some shorter ones, and I tend to kick off the PPR comms (emails and faxes) for those weeks ahead. Some airports need to be sent half a dozen emails and faxes before one gets a reply. Many never reply. I don't fly to those, but in extreme cases I ask a local pilot to phone them. For example I will be flying to Kithira (a Greek island) which never responded to any comms, including AFTN messages, but I got someone local to phone them in Greek.
Other airports are really easy, and obviously that's where I prefer to go.
It's a European disease and it is spreading.
I'm guessing Silvaire that you don't have any national borders within 500 miles? Or maybe one with an English speaking country?
Most English pilots probably have a dozen or more national borders, covering half a dozen languages, within that distance. Most of the countries in that are in the same European Union, but a few (Switzerland, Isle of Mann) are not. There are several regions with significant terrorist issues (hence for example that I need to notify the police 12 hours before flying to or from Ireland), and numerous concerns about tax avoidance, or smuggling. We also have a much higher population density than you have in the USA, so most airports have local noise concerns and may need to brief you, or temporarily vary flight operations to ensure that they can stay in business. We also don't subsidise our local airports by and large, choosing in Europe to spend our taxes on, for example, healthcare - it's a national difference.
Yes, and there are things we don't do very well of course - I'd love to have the American 1-800-WXBRIEF service in the UK, along with your lack of landing fees, and pilot controlled lighting. Those are all things that in theory we could do in Europe, and is an enhancing feature of flight in the USA.
But, to look at the restrictions on flying here and say it's mad, is not really to understand the situation.
Mind you, I also don't understand many of the complaints from my fellow Brits. I have virtually never failed to get somebody on the phone and obtain PPR even if I've occasionally taken a few goes or gone somewhere else nearby, I know that I can save a lot on handling fees by going through the local flying club, and I spent £30 per year on the Pooleys Flight Guide, which contains most of the guidance I need to get things right.
G
(UK, European and FAA licence holder)
Most English pilots probably have a dozen or more national borders, covering half a dozen languages, within that distance. Most of the countries in that are in the same European Union, but a few (Switzerland, Isle of Mann) are not. There are several regions with significant terrorist issues (hence for example that I need to notify the police 12 hours before flying to or from Ireland), and numerous concerns about tax avoidance, or smuggling. We also have a much higher population density than you have in the USA, so most airports have local noise concerns and may need to brief you, or temporarily vary flight operations to ensure that they can stay in business. We also don't subsidise our local airports by and large, choosing in Europe to spend our taxes on, for example, healthcare - it's a national difference.
Yes, and there are things we don't do very well of course - I'd love to have the American 1-800-WXBRIEF service in the UK, along with your lack of landing fees, and pilot controlled lighting. Those are all things that in theory we could do in Europe, and is an enhancing feature of flight in the USA.
But, to look at the restrictions on flying here and say it's mad, is not really to understand the situation.
Mind you, I also don't understand many of the complaints from my fellow Brits. I have virtually never failed to get somebody on the phone and obtain PPR even if I've occasionally taken a few goes or gone somewhere else nearby, I know that I can save a lot on handling fees by going through the local flying club, and I spent £30 per year on the Pooleys Flight Guide, which contains most of the guidance I need to get things right.
G
(UK, European and FAA licence holder)
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"We also don't subsidise our local airports by and large" - RyanAir would disagree with that! The fact is GA is seen as a rich man's sport and not an essential business tool for those find it useful in business. That is why there are so many restrictions and obstacles to an efficient network of GA airports. Perhaps someone might enlighten us about why GA is so disliked by some airports and ATC staff in this country. I did say SOME.
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Ah yes, Alderney, that well known terrorist state...the one that requires me to notify Special Branch 12 hours before....Yes I have seen many Al Queda terrorists living there, and gawd you should see the drug plantations. Everyone is high on Cocain all the time!
Not to mention the Isle Of Man...Wow, those people are really something. Always trying to cross the Irish Sea and blow up terrotist targets.
The Irish are European, but the Northern Irish, who are British are all terrorists as we all well know.
Yes the restrictions we face in Europe, being all members of the EU and all that, are mad...crazy in fact considering there are meant to be free borders.
Not to mention the Isle Of Man...Wow, those people are really something. Always trying to cross the Irish Sea and blow up terrotist targets.
The Irish are European, but the Northern Irish, who are British are all terrorists as we all well know.
Yes the restrictions we face in Europe, being all members of the EU and all that, are mad...crazy in fact considering there are meant to be free borders.