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FREDAcheck,
The poor airfield operator is always in the front line.
However, this means that the pilot would be uninsured without PPR etc etc.
So, it is illegal to fly without insurance.
So the airfield operator can then respond: "your flight was nothing to do with me". So some hope for airfield operators.
But if the airfield CCTV catches you bouncing off the runway after a downwind landing and hurtling towards a parked aircraft and hitting it - expect a bill from the insurers of anything damaged! (or, at the very least, a bill from your own lawyers for defending you against such a claim!)
And don't expect hull cover. It is also against the law for insurers to pay out for illegal actions.
****
Look closely, this is not just about Farmer Joe's grass strips. It is about ANY "landing ground" that is not licensed. And that number is growing now that ab inition flight training for light aircraft is now allowed from unlicensed airfields.
It may even cover Government Airfileds since they are not "licensed"!!
The poor airfield operator is always in the front line.
However, this means that the pilot would be uninsured without PPR etc etc.
So, it is illegal to fly without insurance.
So the airfield operator can then respond: "your flight was nothing to do with me". So some hope for airfield operators.
But if the airfield CCTV catches you bouncing off the runway after a downwind landing and hurtling towards a parked aircraft and hitting it - expect a bill from the insurers of anything damaged! (or, at the very least, a bill from your own lawyers for defending you against such a claim!)
And don't expect hull cover. It is also against the law for insurers to pay out for illegal actions.
****
Look closely, this is not just about Farmer Joe's grass strips. It is about ANY "landing ground" that is not licensed. And that number is growing now that ab inition flight training for light aircraft is now allowed from unlicensed airfields.
It may even cover Government Airfileds since they are not "licensed"!!
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It is also against the law for insurers to pay out for illegal actions.
If it appears that every unlicensed airfield in the UK has an insurance policy which makes PPR mandatory, that is a perversion which needs to be checked out; it is probably unintentional.
I would fully expect it on a private strip, as indeed I would expect it if I was to insure my drive for a liability to others parking there. It's pretty obvious that my insurance can cover only those who park there with my permission.
The conditions xrayalpha quotes means that if a pilot lands without prior permission, the airport operator will be uninsured, and potentially liable.
I hope you read NOTAMs and the like better than you read some of these posts; could be a safety issue otherwise...
Join Date: May 2001
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Privided always that:
(a) the Insured and/or the pilot conducting the flight has obtained the permission of the owner or the tenants of the land;
(b) the Insured and/or the pilot condusting the flight has ascertained the suitability of the landing ground and has enquired from the landlord/tenant or from their authorised representative the condition of the landing ground at the expected time of arrival;
(c) the pilot conducting the flight has surveyed the landing ground by flypast or overflight immediately prior to landing.
(a) the Insured and/or the pilot conducting the flight has obtained the permission of the owner or the tenants of the land;
(b) the Insured and/or the pilot condusting the flight has ascertained the suitability of the landing ground and has enquired from the landlord/tenant or from their authorised representative the condition of the landing ground at the expected time of arrival;
(c) the pilot conducting the flight has surveyed the landing ground by flypast or overflight immediately prior to landing.
Once again, no...the quoted conditions appear to be from an airCRAFT insurance document, not an airPORT one. Hence, the aircraft would be uninsured, but it has no relevance to the airport.
I hope you read NOTAMs and the like better than you read some of these posts; could be a safety issue otherwise...
One point I made remains valid. In the event of litigation, lawyers look for anyone to sue, and will certainly go for the airfield operator if they can find any case for liability. Even successfully defending a legal action can be expensive.
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Litigation is rife
But, here in the UK, there is little or no precedent for the vast majority of what people are afraid of.
The basic issue is that if you ask a lawyer "is there a liability" he will always say Yes...
There is a fair bit of "try it on" litigation where a lawyer tries to get a settlement without the claim being tested in a court. This works because businessmen have a tendency to get problems off their back by writing a cheque (that is also what keeps the crooks in the Inland Revenue in business), and so it goes on...
Join Date: May 2001
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Quote:
What about airfields that are not attended all the time?
Who cares?
What about airfields that are not attended all the time?
Who cares?
40. An aircraft shall not taxi on the apron or the manoeuvring area of an aerodrome without the
permission of either—
(a) the person in charge of the aerodrome; or
(b) the air traffic control unit or aerodrome flight information service unit notified as being on watch at the aerodrome.
Rules of the Air Regulations 2007. Maximum fine £2,500.
Avoid imitations
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PPR... you either call in advance by phone, or you fly and call in by radio. If they don't allow you to land (no matter what the reason, and enough reasons have already been listed here), then you fly back home or to your alternate.
All the more reason, if it's a Commercial flight & not a 'jolly', to act like a pro. & make sure you are allowed to land beforehand.
Sort of essential pre-flight planning ?
mikehallam.
Sort of essential pre-flight planning ?
mikehallam.
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Sort of essential pre-flight planning?
Btw, I hope I can do slightly better than "acting" like a pro.
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What worries me is the "I'm a pilot and I can do as I like" attitude seen when some people find they are required to do something which they feel infringes their freedom to do as they want totally ignoring the fact that others have rights and resposibilities too. If an airfield is listed as PPR then PPR it is, no ifs or buts. Whoever owns/manages the airfield REQUIRES PPR for whatever reason they may have - it isn't an option. For heaven's sake, a quick phone call isn't going to delay your flight by hours and hours but it may avoid problems. Good airmanship requires courtesy and respect for others so please stop the tantrums reminiscent of a stroppy two year old and do as asked.
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Some people here are confusing the UK with abroad.
Sure, PPR is a phone call in the UK, so no big deal (except the "PPR only by phone" bit which is just obvious bollox, for any airfield which actually has a radio).
It's different abroad, where (taking the case of an "international" airport) only ATC is obliged to speak English. The ground staff doesn't need to, and often doesn't, and this is why PPR is so irritating. It can take days of emailing, faxing, etc, to sort out PPR in many places. For preplanned trips like holidays, I usually start a few weeks ahead.
Sure, PPR is a phone call in the UK, so no big deal (except the "PPR only by phone" bit which is just obvious bollox, for any airfield which actually has a radio).
It's different abroad, where (taking the case of an "international" airport) only ATC is obliged to speak English. The ground staff doesn't need to, and often doesn't, and this is why PPR is so irritating. It can take days of emailing, faxing, etc, to sort out PPR in many places. For preplanned trips like holidays, I usually start a few weeks ahead.
Mandatory "PPR by phone" is less bollox to people who realise all equipment can go wrong - including radio. I feel quite sure that is one of the reasons it is required by most aerodromes over here.
And frankly, I do not think there is any universal obligation for ATC to speak English, and I am quite sure many controllers don't. In Russia, for a beginning. Email or fax stands a better chance of being understood, though that says nothing about the likelihood of getting a reply.
And frankly, I do not think there is any universal obligation for ATC to speak English, and I am quite sure many controllers don't. In Russia, for a beginning. Email or fax stands a better chance of being understood, though that says nothing about the likelihood of getting a reply.
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I hate PPR. To me if your are operating a commercial airport then the more visitors you get the more money you make (landing at farmer joes strip I view differently)
However I do agree thats its often good airmanship to phone ahead. So if I call up on the radio only to be told I can't land there because its too busy, waterlogged runway etc then fair enough.
However when I call up and none of the above apply and the only reason I can't land there is because I haven't phone for PPR. Well thats utter bollox and I make an effort not to take my business to such places.
However I do agree thats its often good airmanship to phone ahead. So if I call up on the radio only to be told I can't land there because its too busy, waterlogged runway etc then fair enough.
However when I call up and none of the above apply and the only reason I can't land there is because I haven't phone for PPR. Well thats utter bollox and I make an effort not to take my business to such places.
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For preplanned trips like holidays, I usually start a few weeks ahead
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PPR is a disease which has crept into the industry. I personally believe that it was some twits great idea to keep out the riff-raff. It now only serves the purpose of making the other person whose job it is to answer the phone feel important.
It is absolute bollox in my view. If as has been suggested, some airports/fields are required to ask for PPR to satisfy some obscure insurance clause (which I don't for a second believe) then fair enough. Stick some disclaimer page on your website, fill it full with all the information you neglected to include in both the AIP and VFR flight guide and I can type in my call sign and estimated arrival time and tick the box that says 'I have read this information' and hit send. Do I need to do these every time I fly to the same spot, perhaps, on filling your disclaimer I’m good to go for a month a more??
I would be very interested to see numbers to justify PPR from a safety perspective. How many accidents have been prevented as a result of PPR being sought in advance or how many may not have happened had the guy at the controls phoned up beforehand? How many times has anyone phoned for PPR and taught "JESUS!! I’m so glad I called ahead, they is absolutely no way I would have known about the Nimbys who just moved in to number 29, or there is NO way I would have known they closed for lunch!" NOTAMs anyone? On the other hand, how many times have you phoned for PPR to get an answer machine, an automated reply asking to press 1,2,3 etc if you want to speak to any of the flight schools or maintenance folk established at the field?
It's political correctness gone mad I say!
Absolutely!
ICAO would disagree with you on that one, I think.
It is absolute bollox in my view. If as has been suggested, some airports/fields are required to ask for PPR to satisfy some obscure insurance clause (which I don't for a second believe) then fair enough. Stick some disclaimer page on your website, fill it full with all the information you neglected to include in both the AIP and VFR flight guide and I can type in my call sign and estimated arrival time and tick the box that says 'I have read this information' and hit send. Do I need to do these every time I fly to the same spot, perhaps, on filling your disclaimer I’m good to go for a month a more??
I would be very interested to see numbers to justify PPR from a safety perspective. How many accidents have been prevented as a result of PPR being sought in advance or how many may not have happened had the guy at the controls phoned up beforehand? How many times has anyone phoned for PPR and taught "JESUS!! I’m so glad I called ahead, they is absolutely no way I would have known about the Nimbys who just moved in to number 29, or there is NO way I would have known they closed for lunch!" NOTAMs anyone? On the other hand, how many times have you phoned for PPR to get an answer machine, an automated reply asking to press 1,2,3 etc if you want to speak to any of the flight schools or maintenance folk established at the field?
It's political correctness gone mad I say!
However I do agree thats its often good airmanship to phone ahead.
And frankly, I do not think there is any universal obligation for ATC to speak English, and I am quite sure many controllers don't.
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Ryan, you didn't seem to read the previous entries very well. PPR does NOT necessarily have to do with "normal" conditions at the field, but "special" conditions, from events that may be happening (field closed for non-participants), lack of proper parking (powered gliders often need PPR because of their wingspan), conditions of the field (it's often sogged in and thus closed). Or they have no "officail" opening hours when there is guaranteed someone there to help with the fuel pumps or other service. Call in advance... what's so difficult about that?
Of course, many fields are PPR since long before the advance of internet, etc. and there are MANY fields that don't have homepages still! Maybe some of those fields should at least have an answering maschine running on the PPR phone number.......
It is the owners priority to use PPR if he wants... it's HIS property after all. You wouldn't want someone landing on your property without your knowledge, would you?
Of course, many fields are PPR since long before the advance of internet, etc. and there are MANY fields that don't have homepages still! Maybe some of those fields should at least have an answering maschine running on the PPR phone number.......
It is the owners priority to use PPR if he wants... it's HIS property after all. You wouldn't want someone landing on your property without your knowledge, would you?
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PPR is fine if someone running an airfield wants PPR by phone, no problemo. I may not bother to go there, but I doubt they care. Some airfields are run by people who seem intent on putting people off visiting, and hence paying their fees. Odd for a business if you ask me. Perfectly acceptable for a private piece of land if someone is "doing you a favour".
Believe it or not, it is perfectly safe to fly to an airfield WITHOUT phoning first...Yep, youbetcha it is! Ask any one who flies in America. I have done 600nm cross countries in the USA WITHOUT phoning first. OMG I hear you all gasp, how can it be so!? Well I check the weather, check the flight guide, and ofski I go. Easy as that.
I confess I did once, in my early flying career, phone ahead in the USA. And that is where I got the "This is an airport isn't it? of course you can land here" line from. The chap was quite bemused that I had phoned him.
I like NOT having PPR because then I am free (like a bird) to do WTF I want. If I want to stop for a cuppa or pee elsewhere, then I can, and no one worries about me. If I want to just drop in because I am in the area doing some stalls and steep turns, then I can just drop in for a bit of tea and cake afterwards...
Anyway I am only posting because I am bored and have nothing better to do, I don't mean to prolong the life of this thread beyond its natural life....
Believe it or not, it is perfectly safe to fly to an airfield WITHOUT phoning first...Yep, youbetcha it is! Ask any one who flies in America. I have done 600nm cross countries in the USA WITHOUT phoning first. OMG I hear you all gasp, how can it be so!? Well I check the weather, check the flight guide, and ofski I go. Easy as that.
I confess I did once, in my early flying career, phone ahead in the USA. And that is where I got the "This is an airport isn't it? of course you can land here" line from. The chap was quite bemused that I had phoned him.
I like NOT having PPR because then I am free (like a bird) to do WTF I want. If I want to stop for a cuppa or pee elsewhere, then I can, and no one worries about me. If I want to just drop in because I am in the area doing some stalls and steep turns, then I can just drop in for a bit of tea and cake afterwards...
Anyway I am only posting because I am bored and have nothing better to do, I don't mean to prolong the life of this thread beyond its natural life....
And frankly, I do not think there is any universal obligation for ATC to speak English, and I am quite sure many controllers don't.
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From ICAO:
In which languages does a licence holder need to demonstrate proficiency?
Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground.
Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground.