Light aircraft down near Andover

[Ptkay]

Photograph of Aircraft G-BGEW

[worrab]

One maybe faced with trees in front or gaps in them. Fly it into them.

I'm sure DA meant the gaps and not the trees, but in all seriousness, do try and avoid trees - they're completely, utterly unyielding.

[Cows getting bigger]

"Push forward", "EFATO", "Unload" are all rather vague terms for the ab-initio. My first thought is that if you ever have an engine failure in any climb or significant turn (not just after take-off) you will need to react more quickly than if the failure occurs in straight & level flight/descent. However you describe it, you are initially trying to reduce angle of attack and then manage a limited amount of energy by selecting the most favourable AoA. It is the rate of change of energy that causes problems.

As far as turning 30 deg or back, it all depends on your definition of EFATO (ie how high and how close to the airfield you are). There are occasions where a turnback is entirely appropriate; especially if there is a cross runway available and you have enough height. Picking up on a previous post, I think glider pilots are far more attuned to the options in such scenarios, something I have noticed when converting them to SEP.

Anyway, just my tuppence worth.

[Intercepted]

There are occasions where a turnback is entirely appropriate; especially if there is a cross runway available and you have enough height. Picking up on a previous post, I think glider pilots are far more attuned to the options in such scenarios, something I have noticed when converting them to SEP.

Yes, if you are at a safe altitude for a turnback, but if you are the slightest unsure about that DO NOT turn back. Gliders and SEP have one significant difference, i.e. 10/1 versus 50/1 glide ratio!

Glider pilots will obviously be more attuned to engine failure scenarios, but it's important to remember that the number of options in a glider is significantly higher compared to a SEP. If an experoienced glider pilot would base his turnback decision on previous glider experience he could be in serious trouble in a SEP.

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by Cows getting bigger

"Push forward", "EFATO", "Unload" are all rather vague terms for the ab-initio. My first thought is that if you ever have an engine failure in any climb or significant turn (not just after take-off) you will need to react more quickly than if the failure occurs in straight & level flight/descent.

In a previous version of a EFATO thread I advanced the push, quick response, slip to the back of the drag curve .... concepts and was told by someone with great experience b@lls.

I then went out and tried it. At least in my aircraft, after a sudden loss of power it will gracefully and automatically pitch forward to maintain trimed airspeed with out aid of human hand. It oscillates a bit and overshoots so flying is obviously better. In conversation, we concluded PUSH is important to drill into ourselves so that we don't HOLD in the climb position and are phsycologically expecting to pitch to a position where the ground is the bulk of what you can see out the window.

In my experiment I was surprised at how big the change from mostly sky to mostly ground was - So I felt I learned something in that hour or so of practicing.

[Miles Magister]

EFATO

I would recomend that pilots find an RAF light aircraft trained QFI and have a proper lesson on EFATOs which will be practiced at height. What you learn may save you at some time in the future.

The EFATO is a difficult manouvre to fly well and requires proper training. The big thing is to maintain speed, perhaps normal glide +10kts in the turn as this will give you energy and make sure you have htis as a minimum before you start the turn. Only turn as far as the first possible landing area, do not try and continue to a 'better' area.

If you are not properly trained then land straight ahead.

MM

[Molesworth 1]

but in all seriousness, do try and avoid trees

maybe Vince could lend you one of his Biggles books?

[cats_five]

Originally Posted by Intercepted

Ye<snip>
Gliders and SEP have one significant difference, i.e. 10/1 versus 50/1 glide ratio!
<snip>

For most of us a 50/1 glider is in our dreams, though there are lots of 40/1 gliders around. The average glass club trainer is pretty much 30/1 and the primary I've seen a couple of times would be struggling to make 10/1. However most of us don't fly primaries, and I agree that 30/1 gives you quite a few more options than 10/1.

What I am curious about is if power pilots consider launch failure options before departure? As noted above gliders have a lot more options because of the better glide angle, and also we consider them before each and every launch so when there is a failure we know what we are going to do.

If we are are in a position to turn (e.g. can't land ahead) we've already decided what approach speed will be and which direction we will turn if land ahead is not possible. (normally downwind)

Does the equivalent go on in SEP?

PS had wondered how long before the Dundee tree landing would get a mention...

[robin]

Put simply, in light GA, highly unlikely.

You should be monitoring progress and prepare to abort take-offs is things are not going as planned but I would doubt many do a W&B or take-off performance calculation. Look at the case of the Diamond Twin Star at Lands End, as an example.

But unless there is a big bang pilots do have a habit of hanging on hoping things get better.

Mind you even glider pilots get it wrong. I've seen some waiting for the winch to accelerate when they should have pulled off earlier.

We are all very good at it when students, but bad habits do creep in over time.

[Intercepted]

I did a little bit of google earth browsing around my home field to locate some spots with approximate directions if I ever get an EFATO, but I would also like to take an hour or two to visit those spots by foot.

Maybe the airfields should publish a map in the same fashion as they publish a map for circuits?

[Bocian]

I quite agree that the next of kin should hear about it from the police or other authority before names are released in the media, or any informal forum.

The police have now informed the next of kin, and released the victims' names in the media; Peter Fitzmaurice (67) from Alton (Hants), and Stuart Francis from Camberley (Surrey).

My condolences to all who knew them.

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Hampshire | Light plane crash victims named

[Oldpilot55]

In a previous career as a land surveyor I attempted to demolish a small tree with a Landrover, which I think we all would recognise as a robust vehicle, largely made of aluminium. The tree was about 6" diameter and did considerably more damage to the Landrover than I did to it. Some young ladies came along with axes and cut it down for me after seeing me try to set fire to it with 20 litres of petrol. It was Africa and I was young but I have a lot of respect for trees and would not try and run into one (or indeed land on top of one) in order to lose energy in a forced landing.

[Nibbler]

Interesting debate about EFATO I had no idea the topic had such varied opinions and some good ideas.

Looking at the surface wind where I was (not too far away) on the day and given the position of the crash site I had thought this could have been where you would be turning final. Slow, low and turning could have been factors in what might have been a stall spin accident so I wondered if there were such varied points of view on this topic?

edited to add: ignoring newspaper reports that it had just taken off of course

[Captain Stable]

Could mean anything, Nibbler.

An aircraft could easily have been in that position (close to base/final turn) if they wanted an overhead departure and ran into problems before departing the circuit, or if they had problems shortly after takeoff and were trying to get round the circuit for a precautionary landing, or all sorts of reasons.

It is to be hoped that the AAIB will find something that can be published and serve as a warning to others, but I think it's unlikely.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001) Author

[gmc17]

nibbler, i had the same thought -the wind was light n-easterly, i believe, but bourne park has a slope downwards east to west and I think preference in relatively benign conditions is to take-off in westerly direction

[bjornhall]

You should be monitoring progress and prepare to abort take-offs is things are not going as planned but I would doubt many do a W&B or take-off performance calculation.

Interesting observation. One would hope you were wrong...

The sad part is that such misbehavior is highly contageous. "Yeah, I know we were taught to do that, and the law even says we must, but nobody else does so I won't either..."

I would put it this way: Most pilots (non-professionals in particular) are not terribly good at what they are doing. If we fly the way everyone else flies we won't be very good either. Then again, one doesn't have to be the best pilot in the world in order to be 'sufficiently safe'...

I think being a good pilot is a goal in itself, whether 'necessary' or not. So I do those calculations every time. I rather enjoy it too.

We are all very good at it when students, but bad habits do creep in over time.

Isn't that the truth! Experience is a prerequisite for both complacency and excellence, but only the former comes automatically.

[horizon flyer]

Having suffered an engine failure at 750ft and ended up standing in a field 1.5miles and 60 seconds later, I know how little time this pilot had and how he was feeling. Mine was not a takeoff engine failure but approach, so I did not need to push, just set up best glide plus ten then look for a field. Running through my head was. Don't stall it on approach, better to run into the far fence than try and slow it down to much and stall in. Remember you can walk away from a 9g stop, that is 9ft from 60mph. As it was, we ended up crossing my first choice field at 5 ft with a fence line coming towards me at 85 mph. I pulled hard just before it and landed in the next and rolled 165 yards in a nice just seeded grass field. This pilot was a lot lower with much less time by the sound of it. Unless you have a pre-plan of what to do, there is no thinking time, it should be instinctive, so I hope we can all learn from this, sit down and think, what would you do in such a situation. Several years later I lost a friend to a EFATO, he attempted a low level turn back, stalled in from 100 feet at the end off the turn. I feel sorry for this pilot as he must have been in panic and overload or he would have made the right choice or walked away.

[horizon flyer]

Having suffered an engine failure at 750ft and ended up standing in a field 1.5miles and 60 seconds later, I know how little time this pilot had and how he was feeling. Mine was not a takeoff engine failure but approach, so I did not need to push, just set up best glide plus ten then look for a field. Running through my head was. Don't stall it on approach, better to run into the far fence than try and slow it down to much and stall in. Remember you can walk away from a 9g stop, that is 9ft from 60mph. As it was, we ended up crossing my first choice field at 5 ft with a fence line coming towards me at 85 mph. I pulled hard just before it and landed in the next and rolled 165 yards in a nice just seeded grass field. This pilot was a lot lower with much less time by the sound of it. Unless you have a pre-plan of what to do, there is no thinking time, it should be instinctive so I hope we can all learn from this, sit down and think, what would we do in such a situation. Several years later I lost a friend to a EFATO, he attempted a low level turn back, stalled in from 100 feet at the end off the turn.

[Monocock]

This is ridiculous. In post 72, Paul identifies his friend and the aircraft that perished. Was there any recognition of that? Was there hell.

The thread had become so obsessed with a bunch of armchair flyers all giving their little bit about how to perform during an EFATO that the topic of the thread, once again, got forgotten.

Listen up. Unless you have had a genuine EFATO at <500 feet (assuming that's what happended to the poor chaps) please don't start giving all the ****e about what to do under the circumstances. The theory is bolleaux and I get fed up hearing about it.

An EFATO at relatively low level just does not give you the chance to think any more than "what is softer to hit". Lucky people will see an open field ahead and bully for them.

The stationary prop that one encounters is like having a plank bolted to your cowling and your glide peformance will compare to an aerodynamic anvil. All you can hear is the wind on the airframe and the control cables running past the pulleys.

Please don't give all the cr@p about "stick forward". Yes, in theory it is correct but when it happens you need to fly the machine into the situation that will give you the least personal injury.

Mine resulted in a smashed up a/c and a neck brace for two weeks. One I saw last week resulted in a smashed up a/c and a brave chap who is limping a bit but not giving in to the situation. For God's sake move away from Trevor Thom and get real. When it happens you need the VERY best of luck and a very cool head, not the theoritical idealism of "stick forward".

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Monocock,

At last a sensible post.......

There is no training for an engine failure (if indeed that's what happened here). It's something you deal with at the time, and hope to get it right. No amount of reading books or listening to 'experts' on here will prepare you for it. I've had several, walked away each time, but I know my luck will run out one day.





Move along, nothing to see here......