Light aircraft down near Andover
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C'mon guys, less of the outpouring of grief for somone who you never met. Easily the most distasteful aspect of the thread.
Silent respect with sensible discussion is far more appropriate.
If I ever go that way, I hope you all do just that and try and learn from what happened.
I only logged on to see if I could (even at this early stage) learn somthing, become a better pilot and maybe even save my life in future.
No one even hinted at asking for a name.
Some of you sound like a vegetarian in a butcher shop.
EK
Silent respect with sensible discussion is far more appropriate.
If I ever go that way, I hope you all do just that and try and learn from what happened.
I only logged on to see if I could (even at this early stage) learn somthing, become a better pilot and maybe even save my life in future.
No one even hinted at asking for a name.
Some of you sound like a vegetarian in a butcher shop.
EK
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No one asked for a name as such, but from
it does not take much for anyone to get at least the owners name
- And actually very little outpourings of grief, mainly discussion of releasing info
Anyone have details on which aircraft it was?
- And actually very little outpourings of grief, mainly discussion of releasing info
As with any thread of this nature on Pprune, it's 10% about the accident, 90% people squabbling about what they are and aren't allowed to write. Why don't you all go do that in Jet Blast, rather than having an identical argument in every single accident thread. Most of us are here for the flying, not your moral dilemmas.
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As with any thread of this nature on Pprune, it's 10% about the accident, 90% people squabbling about what they are and aren't allowed to write. Why don't you all go do that in Jet Blast, rather than having an identical argument in every single accident thread. Most of us are here for the flying, not your moral dilemmas.
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Why don't you all go do that in Jet Blast,
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Agreed again foxmoth, unfortunately the media look at this forum for info, albeit they don't understand what they are reading, they take interesting info (to them) and distort it to make a sensational headline, just look at the amount of first time posters, who obviously know nothing about aviation...The media...Just after making a spectacular issue...Please be careful what you say on PPRuNe.
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As a pilot and co-owner I want to know ASAP what type the aeroplane is, if for no other reaons to eliminate my friends from the accident. If I knew what type it was, I'd post the details of type purely for this exact reason.
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Being sensitive and respectful...
..... is common sense and this ol' timer has no intention of sharing personal information before it reaches the public domain. However, the aircraft concerned came to grief in CAVOK conditions and witness reports claim "high impact speed", "low and slow" and wing-rocking."
Since the type of aircraft concerned has a pretty low glide speed, would it be rocket-science (or cause offence) to suggest that this was a classic stall/spin accident? No slur on the pilot concerned of course... simply trying to invite constructive debate. bm
Since the type of aircraft concerned has a pretty low glide speed, would it be rocket-science (or cause offence) to suggest that this was a classic stall/spin accident? No slur on the pilot concerned of course... simply trying to invite constructive debate. bm
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..... is common sense and this ol' timer has no intention of sharing personal information before it reaches the public domain. However, the aircraft concerned came to grief in CAVOK conditions and witness reports claim "high impact speed", "low and slow" and wing-rocking."
Since the type of aircraft concerned has a pretty low glide speed, would it be rocket-science (or cause offence) to suggest that this was a classic stall/spin accident? No slur on the pilot concerned of course... simply trying to invite constructive debate. bm
Since the type of aircraft concerned has a pretty low glide speed, would it be rocket-science (or cause offence) to suggest that this was a classic stall/spin accident? No slur on the pilot concerned of course... simply trying to invite constructive debate. bm
I also can't think of any 'constructive debate' we can have at present, and I'm not sure what value consolences from people who don't know those involved and/or their families have.
However if any of you want to read something about it to make you see red, check the reader's comments in the Daily Mail's online report. Most of them have not only no sympathy expressed, but the lack of knowledge of quite a few contributions seems to echo that of the new Strictly judge:
Aircraft crash leaves two dead | Mail Online
ENTREPPRUNEUR
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I don't understand it. If you people don't like discussions about aviation events unless they're on the BBC, what are you doing on PPRuNe?. We don't want your pompous pontifications, and you don't like reading speculation so why are you here?
It wouldn't be so bad if there was any logic. If details of who has been killed is going to reach the next of kin, why are you bothered by the mechanism or timing? Personally if someone close to me might have crashed I'd rather get information as soon as possible, even if it might not be 100% correct. It's highly unlikely that what is said here would be the primary route to those affected.
You may find this kind of event distasteful - it takes all sorts - but please don't clog up the threads with pointless moaning. The rest of us want to try and understand what sorts of things go wrong, and why, if there are any patterns that apply to us.
It wouldn't be so bad if there was any logic. If details of who has been killed is going to reach the next of kin, why are you bothered by the mechanism or timing? Personally if someone close to me might have crashed I'd rather get information as soon as possible, even if it might not be 100% correct. It's highly unlikely that what is said here would be the primary route to those affected.
You may find this kind of event distasteful - it takes all sorts - but please don't clog up the threads with pointless moaning. The rest of us want to try and understand what sorts of things go wrong, and why, if there are any patterns that apply to us.
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Dear Cats Five..
It is deeply regrettable that my attempt to provoke intelligent discussion results in your negative handbagging!
Condolencies: I expressed none and did not comment on others who chose to do so.
Daily Mail: Irrelevent
Constructive discussion: Lives are lost throughtout the world every year as a result off stall/spin accidents. Anything (yes, anything!) that can be done to bang-home in the minds of low-time pilots the importance of avoiding stall/spin situations must be a good thing. This forum is for information and education you know! Cheers bm
Condolencies: I expressed none and did not comment on others who chose to do so.
Daily Mail: Irrelevent
Constructive discussion: Lives are lost throughtout the world every year as a result off stall/spin accidents. Anything (yes, anything!) that can be done to bang-home in the minds of low-time pilots the importance of avoiding stall/spin situations must be a good thing. This forum is for information and education you know! Cheers bm
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I'm with katamarino. Every single time there is a crash the vast majority of the discussion shoots-off in exactly the same direction. Pointless, self-righteous and a complete waste of time as far as aviation safety is concerned.
Anyway, perhaps the actual pilots here will permit some speculation. The eyewitness reports, which are of course notoriously inaccurate (as I see one guy determined that something might be wrong not by the explosions, but by the favt his cows were acting oddly 
) suggest engine problems, followed by a stall/spin into a large field.
Of course, this may be a million miles from the truth.
True or not, in this situation, I can very easily see the temptation to try and keep the plane in the air. It's not a total engine failure, where the forced landing in a field would be obvious, but critically there may not be enough power for level flight. The fact the engine still turns over may be enough to tempt a pilot to hang on in there, rather than putting it down. I know I'd find the decision very difficult.
Do we perhaps not give enough emphasis to the precautionary landing in training? I know that it was never mentioned in mine, and in a borderline case, it could be a very difficult choice to make and might not even be thought of. However, I've recently read a number of cases where it has saved people.
) suggest engine problems, followed by a stall/spin into a large field.Of course, this may be a million miles from the truth.
True or not, in this situation, I can very easily see the temptation to try and keep the plane in the air. It's not a total engine failure, where the forced landing in a field would be obvious, but critically there may not be enough power for level flight. The fact the engine still turns over may be enough to tempt a pilot to hang on in there, rather than putting it down. I know I'd find the decision very difficult.
Do we perhaps not give enough emphasis to the precautionary landing in training? I know that it was never mentioned in mine, and in a borderline case, it could be a very difficult choice to make and might not even be thought of. However, I've recently read a number of cases where it has saved people.
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I go along with EK4457, Katamarino, BoeingMEL and others.
Up to the time of writing, there are 34 other contributions to this thread and 5584 viewers. Of the latter, I would bet the great majority are hoping for news, facts and rumour in that order. To date, they leave disappointed. They will get nothing from threads that offer shallow sympathy to the unknown families of the unknown occupants of an unknown crashed aircraft.
This PPRuNe community has the potential to know the facts (here because one member may belong to the affected flying club), has great collective experience (if the old hands stick it out, even while the others drivel on), is very interested to know what is going on (and is not afraid to learn promptly from the mishaps of others) and has the capacity for sound judgement (to be assessed, contribution by contribution, by its members).
I hope, uncertainly, that our moderators are mulling over how to keep PPRuNe more fit for aviators and less gratifying for the groupies.
That is my joining in with the 90% of squabblers.
For the speculators, we have thought of Cessnas model 337 and of Ercoupes. With Hampshire in mind, has the Optica been flying lately, if at all ?
Up to the time of writing, there are 34 other contributions to this thread and 5584 viewers. Of the latter, I would bet the great majority are hoping for news, facts and rumour in that order. To date, they leave disappointed. They will get nothing from threads that offer shallow sympathy to the unknown families of the unknown occupants of an unknown crashed aircraft.
This PPRuNe community has the potential to know the facts (here because one member may belong to the affected flying club), has great collective experience (if the old hands stick it out, even while the others drivel on), is very interested to know what is going on (and is not afraid to learn promptly from the mishaps of others) and has the capacity for sound judgement (to be assessed, contribution by contribution, by its members).
I hope, uncertainly, that our moderators are mulling over how to keep PPRuNe more fit for aviators and less gratifying for the groupies.
That is my joining in with the 90% of squabblers.
For the speculators, we have thought of Cessnas model 337 and of Ercoupes. With Hampshire in mind, has the Optica been flying lately, if at all ?
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BoeingMEL
".................... low-time pilots the importance of avoiding stall/spin situations must be a good thing."
Sorry to have to say it is not only low time pilots either. Multi thousand hour pilots are getting themselves into trouble too, when they shouldn't be. They probably are aware of the result of inadvertent stalling but some seem to be so far out of the loop with the automatics flying the aircraft, they are unable to catch a pre-stall situation when the automatics do let them down.
As for a thread like this on JB I dont think it would last long to be quite honest. After the AF prang, the hysteria among the mods and the heavy handed editing was something to behold.
This may sound cynical but to guarantee safety in the air, is to stay on the ground. There always has been accidents and there always will be.
".................... low-time pilots the importance of avoiding stall/spin situations must be a good thing."
Sorry to have to say it is not only low time pilots either. Multi thousand hour pilots are getting themselves into trouble too, when they shouldn't be. They probably are aware of the result of inadvertent stalling but some seem to be so far out of the loop with the automatics flying the aircraft, they are unable to catch a pre-stall situation when the automatics do let them down.
As for a thread like this on JB I dont think it would last long to be quite honest. After the AF prang, the hysteria among the mods and the heavy handed editing was something to behold.
This may sound cynical but to guarantee safety in the air, is to stay on the ground. There always has been accidents and there always will be.
Last edited by doubleu-anker; 21st Sep 2009 at 09:37.
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Since most of us know nothing about the accident beyond the location, what sort of 'constructive debate' might we have?
You want to discuss stall/spin, of course it's an important avaiation topic (after all avoiding stall/spin is vital), but we have absolutely no idea if it was a causal factor, something that happened way after the aircraft was doomed or something that didn't occur.
The idea that it might have been seems to be based on a possible interpretation of what might have been seen by a witness who isn't (so far as we know) an aviator.
You want to discuss stall/spin, of course it's an important avaiation topic (after all avoiding stall/spin is vital), but we have absolutely no idea if it was a causal factor, something that happened way after the aircraft was doomed or something that didn't occur.
The idea that it might have been seems to be based on a possible interpretation of what might have been seen by a witness who isn't (so far as we know) an aviator.
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I, too, was concerned about the well being of a friend who was probably flying in a similar area at at similar time. I logged on to see if pprune would reveal what type was lost.
When it didn't I googled a simple search term and found the type in a trice.
Not my friend.
It really isnt hard, and pprune is not the only source of info when these things happen.
All accident threads follow the same path,
1. initial notification,
2. What type, where and who q's?
3. Condolences and people objecting to condolences...
4. More 'what type, where and who q's'...
5. Wait for the AAIB brigade come out to speak.
6. Regular news sources reveal the type and names (normally after police conference)
7. More condolences, then the thread ends...
Until the next one.
CRX.
When it didn't I googled a simple search term and found the type in a trice.
Not my friend.
It really isnt hard, and pprune is not the only source of info when these things happen.
All accident threads follow the same path,
1. initial notification,
2. What type, where and who q's?
3. Condolences and people objecting to condolences...
4. More 'what type, where and who q's'...
5. Wait for the AAIB brigade come out to speak.
6. Regular news sources reveal the type and names (normally after police conference)
7. More condolences, then the thread ends...
Until the next one.
CRX.
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Whether it was related to this incident or not, one thing this thread re-enforces is the fact that if something goes wrong and if you stop flying the aeroplane, you will die, unless exceedingly lucky.
One vital thing to do in the event of an engine failure is to "push" - unload the wings and you WILL NOT STALL. Without a stall a spin is impossible and a spin at low level will 99% of the time kill you.
One vital thing to do in the event of an engine failure is to "push" - unload the wings and you WILL NOT STALL. Without a stall a spin is impossible and a spin at low level will 99% of the time kill you.