RE: Spinning on the PPL course
This is the point I have been trying to make, spinning is an exercise that is pointless to teach to the general spam can flyers. Avoidance is a much better thing to teach and thankfully those who make the rules world wide seem to agree for a change.
Get a grip.
This is DIRECTLY analogous to saying: "Well, if pilots want to fly in clouds (or at night, or in situations where the ground might be lost to view), they should go and get instrument rated." We, as the high priests of what is right in aviation, should dictate that they must be taught to AVOID these conditions at all costs. Training to do otherwise is unwarranted and potentially dangerous to both the student and the instructor (who probably has single-digit actual instrument time himself)
I suspect that most of this opposition is engendered by people who are terrified of spins themselves because nobody ever taught them how to deal with what is, under the correct circumstances, a fairly benign flight condition.
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I suspect that most of this opposition is engendered by people who are terrified of spins themselves because nobody ever taught them how to deal with what is, under the correct circumstances, a fairly benign flight condition.
What I am saying is that in my opinion there is no place for it anymore in basic training. That teaching people to avoid the spin in the first place is a safer and more beneficial system considering the numbers of aircraft in the GA flight that are not approved for spinning.
The training indsutry as a whole worldwide reached the same conclusion so I am pretty sure there must be some merit in this thinking.
Yeah... So then when something DOES happen and the poor guy finds himself in the situation his instructor inadequately prepared him to avoid or, God Forbid, he has a mechanical/weather/judgement mishap, we just chalk it up to rotten luck.
If people do want to go and learn to spin and recover for the fun of it then there are limitless ways of going out and getting the experience. As I have mentioned before in the UK the amazing Ultimate High will put anyone who crosses their palm with silver through some of the most gruelling upset recovery drills you can imagine. That is the place to learn about advanced handling.
But thank you for resorting to the usual PPRUNE fallback of being insulting if people do not agree with you.
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I am not anti-spinning at all. I rather like spinning and the thrill it gives me. But as an Instructor I do not think it has a place in modern basic instruction.
This really worries me. A couple of points on comments you have made. Firstly fear is the biggest teacher you can ever have.You cannot cotton wool everyone in society from fear as that poorly equips them to deal with fear when they are faced with it. Pilots will no matter how much avoidance and cotton wooling you teach will without doubt at some time be faced with extreme fear.
Spinning is just one aspect of out of the box handling. A spiral dive is far more vicious and also has an element of risk. It is a manouvre which holds a high risk of breaking the aircraft.
How can a pilot who has never spun know if he is in a spiral dive or a spin? is there a danger that he may confuse the two? How can you half train a pilot ?You are not doing them a favour but putting them at risk.
As an ex racing driver from years past in formula ford, clubmans and formula 3.The techniques I learnt back then have saved me many times on the road.
A driver who is taught to drive is not taught to handle a car.
All is well until there is ice or someone else loosing control and they are then ill equipt to to deal with the situation and crash. As the many flowers on the roadsides show they end up dead.
This is not about spins but about all manner of unusual attitudes and equiping pilots to be able to have the best chance of getting out of a nasty situation.
Believe me at some time you WILL have a situation. Half training pilots or trying to avoid situations which hold fear is not doing them a favour.
I am very curious, please tell me how your spam can driver, flying along straight and level will suddenly depart from normal flight in to a death spin that if he had training he could have recovered from? The only other area that has a demonstrated history of accidental spins is the departure and turn to final neither of which I am sure that even the highest trained of sky gods is going to recover a bog standard spam can from.
There are many ways a pilot can get into a spin other than turning finals.
But this is not the point.
Abandon stall recovery. abandon spiral dive recovery. Abandon steep turns (why should anyone steep turn teach them avoidance by confining to rate one only?) The arguemnt is the same.
Its all about being comfortable with your ability and what the aircraft can and will do and how to handle that. The only way to handle fear is to face it, be comfortable with it and then loose it.
You never cure fear by avoidance!
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 16th Apr 2009 at 18:43.
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Believe me at some time you WILL have a situation. Half training pilots or trying to avoid situations which hold fear is not doing them a favour.
As I said it seems that all of the regulators in the world agree with this principal. It may upset a few egos on PPRUNE but the decision pretty much worldwide was to move from teaching spinning at ab-initio level to teaching spin avoidance. As an Instructor it is something I support. If someone comes to me post PPL and wants to learn to spin them I am delighted to show them the basics. If they want to learn advanced handling and upset then I will show them where to find Instructors way more experienced than me in that field.
Like I said, I am not anti-spinning, I just think that there is a correct time and place for this type of skill development.
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Bose
I would not issue a driving licence to someone who was not taught to handle a car in extreme situations ie by training on a skid pan especially if my kids or family or friends were relying on their skills.
I personally would drop a couple a hours off the PPL and add a couple of hours aerobatic instruction instead before issuing a PPL.
No regulators dont get everything right but DO get a lot wrong.
Pace
I would not issue a driving licence to someone who was not taught to handle a car in extreme situations ie by training on a skid pan especially if my kids or family or friends were relying on their skills.
I personally would drop a couple a hours off the PPL and add a couple of hours aerobatic instruction instead before issuing a PPL.
No regulators dont get everything right but DO get a lot wrong.
Pace
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I personally would drop a couple a hours off the PPL and add a couple of hours aerobatic instruction instead before issuing a PPL.
No regulators dont get everything right but DO get a lot wrong.
No regulators dont get everything right but DO get a lot wrong.
I have told you my position which by chance is the same as the regulators world wide.
I may have it wrong and they may have it wrong so if you have evidence to support a change back to the old school please feel free to present it.
Otherwise I think we have pretty much done the subject to death!!!
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In my one and only spin recovery training session it was only the first time the instructor demonstrated a spin that it was a real shock. By the second or third time it had reduced to being just thoroughly unpleasant!
I found myself naturally recovering from the spin before it had really established. It takes some determined discipline to keep the controls in a pro-spin condition.
This was in a PA-28. Getting a common garden variety Cessna 152 to spin must be well nigh impossible.
I found myself naturally recovering from the spin before it had really established. It takes some determined discipline to keep the controls in a pro-spin condition.
This was in a PA-28. Getting a common garden variety Cessna 152 to spin must be well nigh impossible.
Most university based 141 schools in the US employ spin training, a LOT more instrument training, and at least some aerobatics exposure as part of their primary (vfr) syllabus. Things differ a bit on this side as well. The expectation is that ppls will fly at night and people not rated to do so are the exception.
Now, on to the ad hominem portion of my screed: It REALLY comes across as grating to call pilots who may happen to fly fairly simple aircraft "spam can drivers". (I'm not one, by the way) Spend a bit of time with someone doing pipeline patrol, flying powerlines or counting ducks. Guess what, they often are not instrument rated, they may have very odd ideas about what constitutes safety from the standpoint of those of us looking down from the flight levels, but those "spam can drivers" had an instructor who taught them how to fly whatever piece of junk they were flying WELL. That's called Airmanship, and it doesn't come automatically with more seats, extra engines or bigger kerosene bills.
Now, on to the ad hominem portion of my screed: It REALLY comes across as grating to call pilots who may happen to fly fairly simple aircraft "spam can drivers". (I'm not one, by the way) Spend a bit of time with someone doing pipeline patrol, flying powerlines or counting ducks. Guess what, they often are not instrument rated, they may have very odd ideas about what constitutes safety from the standpoint of those of us looking down from the flight levels, but those "spam can drivers" had an instructor who taught them how to fly whatever piece of junk they were flying WELL. That's called Airmanship, and it doesn't come automatically with more seats, extra engines or bigger kerosene bills.
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Bose and Pace, good points, both.
Certainly unusual maneuvers should be experienced during training. Slow flying, stalls, spin avoidance. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. Practice, practice, and the GFT, and after 45 hours or so of very expensive training, you are now qualified for a Pilot's License.
But how many hours over your lifetime have you spent driving the car?
And how many hours experience is required for a PPL in the UK to be current? Five a year? Pitiful, isn't it?
But how many hours over your lifetime have you spent driving the car?
And how many hours experience is required for a PPL in the UK to be current? Five a year? Pitiful, isn't it?
As an ex racing driver from years past in formula ford, clubmans and formula 3.The techniques I learnt back then have saved me many times on the road.
Having taught spinning for quite a few years, I am convinced that there is NO NEED for it in the PPL syllabus. Few aircraft are suitable and few instructors can teach the exercise correctly. Instead concentrate on AVOIDANCE.
Yet the CAA requires instructors to take aircraft in which intentional spinning is prohibited to the point of an incipient spin, defined as a stall with yaw and roll during 6-yearly FI revalidation proficiency checks.... How they can do this in the current H&S yellow jacket era is beyond me - if intentional spinning is prohibited then it means just that! A mishandled incipient spin could soon lead to a developed spin - and then the FIE and FI are in a whole world of $hit.
One FIE announced "The only way I can get the PA28 Warrior to do that is with 10 deg flap and 2200 rpm...." Is such trick flying just to appease the CAA really a good idea? I would say not.
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Well your driving must be rather inappropriate for the road. Ex-racing driving skills have NO relevance on the normal road.
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I disagree, and it's where the analogy holds. It's nothing to do with speed: Faced with a potential accident the average driver plants their right foot on the middle pedal, closes both eyes and leaves two black lines leading straight to the scene of the accident. Having racing past (car handling ability) will start with the basic 'eyes open, evaluate', and include the ability to control the car, perhaps going round the problem, or through a soft spot in the hedge etc. It gets over the 'panic, suprise' reaction that's prevalent if you've never seen anything like that before.
It is unhelpful to a student's (including new PPL's) progress to leave that person thinking that they have demonstrated adequate skill, and no more skills developement is needed. With driving skills beyond those of the "average" motorist, accidents can be both avoided and prevented - speed need not be a factor. Similarly, with calm deliberate piloting in the face of many uncommon flight circumstances, flying accidents can be prevented. The awareness of a spin is just one of many examples of how a "new" pilot must be pushed a little, if for no other reason than to make that person aware that prevention and recovery are possible, and it's something to aspire to.
I once watched an excellent demonstration of airmanship, in a Bell 206. The pilot made a perfect hovering pedal turn exactly about the tail rotor. During my helicopter training, I aspired to this. My instructor told me this was not required for the flight test. I told him it was required for my own sense of confidence in flying the helicopter with adequate precision. He agreed, and encouraged my practicing.
New pilots must have higher skill set to aspire to. Proper aircraft handling in unusual attitudes is a very good objective. Spins are a very appropriate example of unusual attitudes, with real world applicability.
Pilot DAR
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The problem is with all of these comments from the PPRUNE Skygods is that you are dealing with AVERAGE.
You seek to train pilots to be skygods and you train drivers to race cars and by doing so you make both the providence of the elite and talented. A great way to get cars of the road and pilots out of the air!!
You are absolutely right. BUT trying to teach the higher skill set to an already over loaded student rather than a safe skill set will just be one more nail in the coffin for light aviation.
I am a great believer that if we are to attract new normal people into aviation that we have to modernise and that we have to provide a clear and safe skill development path. At basic level we teach the general handling skills and the avoidance skills which includes how to make sure you don't get into a spin in the first place. By all means of the student wants to see a spin then arrange for it with a suitably qualified and experienced Instructor and appropriate aircraft.
As the student skills develop and they are more comfortable with the basic skills they can seek further training in more advanced skills such as spinning and upset recovery. This allows them to push the envelope further at their own pace.
I know many students who would have given up flying if they had been forced to learn to spin who are now multi thousand hour pilots, perfectly safe and still have no desire to spin an aircraft. It is not everyone's cup of tea and the days of the macho bull**** of using military training to weed out the weakest are behind us. Some people do not like the feelings of nausea and discomfort that spinning or other more advanced manoeuvres produce. Do we drive them out GA just because they can't do what we can?
If GA is to survive and even grow we must try and encompass more ordinary people.
421Dog, Please accept my apologies, I think you have take offence to something lost in translation which was not there. In Europe we tend to refer to the normal trainer/rental fleet as 'Spam cans' due to the fact that 98% of them are of US manufacture. I fly a twin Turbo prop for work but my private flying is done in a Cessna (and an AUster which has no instruments!!) so I firmly consider my self to be a spam can driver. It is a term of endearment not one of insult.
You seek to train pilots to be skygods and you train drivers to race cars and by doing so you make both the providence of the elite and talented. A great way to get cars of the road and pilots out of the air!!
Originally Posted by Pilot DAR
New pilots must have higher skill set to aspire to.
I am a great believer that if we are to attract new normal people into aviation that we have to modernise and that we have to provide a clear and safe skill development path. At basic level we teach the general handling skills and the avoidance skills which includes how to make sure you don't get into a spin in the first place. By all means of the student wants to see a spin then arrange for it with a suitably qualified and experienced Instructor and appropriate aircraft.
As the student skills develop and they are more comfortable with the basic skills they can seek further training in more advanced skills such as spinning and upset recovery. This allows them to push the envelope further at their own pace.
I know many students who would have given up flying if they had been forced to learn to spin who are now multi thousand hour pilots, perfectly safe and still have no desire to spin an aircraft. It is not everyone's cup of tea and the days of the macho bull**** of using military training to weed out the weakest are behind us. Some people do not like the feelings of nausea and discomfort that spinning or other more advanced manoeuvres produce. Do we drive them out GA just because they can't do what we can?
If GA is to survive and even grow we must try and encompass more ordinary people.
Originally Posted by 421dog
It REALLY comes across as grating to call pilots who may happen to fly fairly simple aircraft "spam can drivers".
Last edited by S-Works; 17th Apr 2009 at 08:15.
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Yep, but chipping away at me trying to get me to agree with you won't work either!!
I have told you my position which by chance is the same as the regulators world wide.
I have told you my position which by chance is the same as the regulators world wide.
I am not chipping away at you and apologise if that is how it comes across. I do understand your arguemnt and respect what you say. We just have different views.
I have never had the confidence in regulators as having pilots or aviations best interest at heart.
Look at the existing mess we have in Europe at present and the massive costs loaded onto aviation by regulators with each sweep of the pen.
The quickest way to kill aviation is through the regulators and the huge costs to pay for it all. That is making aviation more unnatractive by the day to the ordinary guy in the street not what goes into the training.
Pace
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The quickest way to kill aviation is through the regulators and those costs to pay for it all which is making aviation more unnatractive by the day to the ordinary guy in the street.
As I have said many time through this post I am not anti spinning, I am just saying that there is a time and place for it. It should be as it is now an elective skill for confidence building and handling enhancement at a time chosen by the pilot not a forced skill because of some romantic notion that being able to do one makes you a sky god or it separates the wheat from the chaff!!! Otherwise I do not see any genuine SAFETY case for returning it to the PPL course. However as I have said before, if someone can provide me with hard data that shows a need for it then I am open minded enough to review it.
Avoid imitations
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I'm always bemused by the angst shown by many over this subject. It reflects how fairly recent changes in our society have changed our appreciation of risk.
I was brought up to be able to drive/ride/fly to my personal limits, or the limits of the vehicle. At the age of 9, I was given an old BSA man's bike with no brakes, to big for me if I sat on the saddle. so I just leaned it over and put one leg through the cross-bar so I could reach the pedals. Rode it for years, saved up my pocket money for brakes and eventually grew legs long enough to ride it in a more conventional sense. At 11, I self learned to ride a motorcycle, on an off-road racer. No helmet, no padding, just wellies and jeans. Went through a few hedges and fell in a few ditches. Still here. Same with horse riding. Just jumped on one and got on with it. No saddle, just a bridle on an unbroken stallion pony (I admit that one hurt; it used to bite us and throw us off). Self learned to drive a four wheeler, again off-road, using a Ferguson Tractor and a discarded Morris van with bald tyres and no brakes. Later, with a provisional car licence and assistance from a pal with a Hillman Imp we used to go out in the Peak District hills every time it snowed, to further our driving skills and understanding of road conditions in the rawest sense. Still here. I was taught glider spin recoveries from a tow-launch at the age of 15, before I was sent solo. Still here. Was taught spin recoveries aged 17 on the pre-PPL syllabus, including recovery from accidental inverted one in a 150 Aerobat (where the engine stopped). More spinning taught in a JP, accidentally lost 10,500 feet one afternoon. Still here. Solo engine offs in a helicopter with a total of 40 hours rotary flying. Later taught spinning myself and maintain that the most important thing is recognising the difference between an incipient spin and a fully developed spin. Difficult to know if you never see it properly.
These days folk are more likely to be mandated to wear a hi-viz jacket and a hard hat, blindly press the button at a Pelican crossing and wait for the green light, but often don't learn to look up the road for themselves before stepping off the pavement.
I was brought up to be able to drive/ride/fly to my personal limits, or the limits of the vehicle. At the age of 9, I was given an old BSA man's bike with no brakes, to big for me if I sat on the saddle. so I just leaned it over and put one leg through the cross-bar so I could reach the pedals. Rode it for years, saved up my pocket money for brakes and eventually grew legs long enough to ride it in a more conventional sense. At 11, I self learned to ride a motorcycle, on an off-road racer. No helmet, no padding, just wellies and jeans. Went through a few hedges and fell in a few ditches. Still here. Same with horse riding. Just jumped on one and got on with it. No saddle, just a bridle on an unbroken stallion pony (I admit that one hurt; it used to bite us and throw us off). Self learned to drive a four wheeler, again off-road, using a Ferguson Tractor and a discarded Morris van with bald tyres and no brakes. Later, with a provisional car licence and assistance from a pal with a Hillman Imp we used to go out in the Peak District hills every time it snowed, to further our driving skills and understanding of road conditions in the rawest sense. Still here. I was taught glider spin recoveries from a tow-launch at the age of 15, before I was sent solo. Still here. Was taught spin recoveries aged 17 on the pre-PPL syllabus, including recovery from accidental inverted one in a 150 Aerobat (where the engine stopped). More spinning taught in a JP, accidentally lost 10,500 feet one afternoon. Still here. Solo engine offs in a helicopter with a total of 40 hours rotary flying. Later taught spinning myself and maintain that the most important thing is recognising the difference between an incipient spin and a fully developed spin. Difficult to know if you never see it properly.
These days folk are more likely to be mandated to wear a hi-viz jacket and a hard hat, blindly press the button at a Pelican crossing and wait for the green light, but often don't learn to look up the road for themselves before stepping off the pavement.
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bose x
Guys have just been looking over the past comments with regard to the topic of spinning. Bose x whilst I appreciate your comments, I find the premise of teaching 'average, normal 
people' only the rudimentaries of flying, frankly horrific. With the exception of CFIT, unintentional spin/loss of control is the biggest killer within GA. Indivuduals who take up flying MUST BE AWARE of the dangers, and the ONLY way to teach and prepare is to carry out the procedure. If the club does not have the equipment, nor the staff to conduct FULL spin procedues and awareness, then the club sends the student to an organisation who can conduct that part of the PPL course. A full aggrevated spin is not a pleasant experience, however, unless you have experienced it, and understand the recovery process, then I am sorry, you are not fully trained.
It has nothing to do with 'military macho flying', it goes with the turf. That is what aeroplanes can do, sometimes with alarming regularity, and unless fully aware, the consequences will be fatal. You cannot shield potential pilots from this truth.
people' only the rudimentaries of flying, frankly horrific. With the exception of CFIT, unintentional spin/loss of control is the biggest killer within GA. Indivuduals who take up flying MUST BE AWARE of the dangers, and the ONLY way to teach and prepare is to carry out the procedure. If the club does not have the equipment, nor the staff to conduct FULL spin procedues and awareness, then the club sends the student to an organisation who can conduct that part of the PPL course. A full aggrevated spin is not a pleasant experience, however, unless you have experienced it, and understand the recovery process, then I am sorry, you are not fully trained.It has nothing to do with 'military macho flying', it goes with the turf. That is what aeroplanes can do, sometimes with alarming regularity, and unless fully aware, the consequences will be fatal. You cannot shield potential pilots from this truth.
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You cannot shield potential pilots from this truth.
It is far better to take a progressive approach.
Fortunately it is a moot point as the regulators world wide reached the same conclusion years ago and their is no evidence to indicate the decision was wrong. There is no evidence to indicate that there are more spin accidents because avoidance rather than recovery is taught.
Anything beyond this is argument for arguments sake in typical PPRUNE style. As I have said a number of times to those who do want to argue, simply provide the evidence that spinning needs to be returned to the basic training and I will look at it. My mind is not closed to evidence, just to blind opinion with no supporting data.
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Bose-X,
There are few PPRuNe Skygods. The real problem is: we've made them below average.
We have the same "shielded" approach to the teaching of car driving in UK. Learners are not allowed to use motorways, even with an instructor. First time they venture near a motorway, they are in unknown territory - albeit legally.
Some will have the intelligence to get themselves further training - most don't, and it shows.
Having instructed for some years (fixed wing and rotary) and moved on, I still work in the flying school environment. The over-riding feeling I get is that many, if not most low-time PPLs hardly dare to mention the word "spin". They don't understand it, only fear it. In my old-school book, that's not a fully trained pilot.
It's more unlikely as time goes on that we will see spinning brought back into the syllabus, so this is all conjecture anyway. It's more unlikely because we now have a systemic tendency to avoid thinking properly about spinning. Instead we have an "avoid all dogs, they bite" mentality.
The problem is with all of these comments from the PPRuNe Skygods is that you are dealing with AVERAGE.
We have the same "shielded" approach to the teaching of car driving in UK. Learners are not allowed to use motorways, even with an instructor. First time they venture near a motorway, they are in unknown territory - albeit legally.
Some will have the intelligence to get themselves further training - most don't, and it shows.
Having instructed for some years (fixed wing and rotary) and moved on, I still work in the flying school environment. The over-riding feeling I get is that many, if not most low-time PPLs hardly dare to mention the word "spin". They don't understand it, only fear it. In my old-school book, that's not a fully trained pilot.
It's more unlikely as time goes on that we will see spinning brought back into the syllabus, so this is all conjecture anyway. It's more unlikely because we now have a systemic tendency to avoid thinking properly about spinning. Instead we have an "avoid all dogs, they bite" mentality.
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I agree with ShyTorque
I tend to only “lurk” here because of the polarised viewpoints! But, I’m again tempted to poke my head above the parapet 
. I learned to fly on an Auster and did a lot of spinning. I feel that it was a good thing and certainly showed what would happen if I let it spin.
This awareness probably helped when I was told to go-around at Lasbordes (a little airport just to the east of Toulouse where I kept my plane at the time). I was offered a “short circuit” (the normal circuit is a cross-country flight at Lasbordes because of the noise sensitive neighbours) and told to turn right immediately. I was very low and must have, unconsciously done a skidding turn. Out of the corner of my eye I saw the needles of the turn and slip indicator pointing all over the place and just, as a reflex, stuffed the nose down.
I completed the rest of the circuit pretty low down!
So, perhaps there’s no “proof” in a formal sense that spin training needs to be reintroduced into the syllabus but there are suggestions that, despite “spin awareness training”, pilots still don’t understand the danger of lack of airspeed in turns.
This can be seen in the various EFATO turn-back crashes and others (this, as an example http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/Bolkow%20207,%20D-ENWA%2006-08.pdf where the pilot seems to have not understood why the aircraft wasn’t climbing but still turned while at very low airspeed – leading to an unrecoverable spin)
It’s been alluded to in a couple of posts in this thread. There’s a general “dumbing down” of life these days and I see the same thing happening in aviation.
Perhaps we need to bring back the Flying Flea?
. I learned to fly on an Auster and did a lot of spinning. I feel that it was a good thing and certainly showed what would happen if I let it spin.This awareness probably helped when I was told to go-around at Lasbordes (a little airport just to the east of Toulouse where I kept my plane at the time). I was offered a “short circuit” (the normal circuit is a cross-country flight at Lasbordes because of the noise sensitive neighbours) and told to turn right immediately. I was very low and must have, unconsciously done a skidding turn. Out of the corner of my eye I saw the needles of the turn and slip indicator pointing all over the place and just, as a reflex, stuffed the nose down.
I completed the rest of the circuit pretty low down!
So, perhaps there’s no “proof” in a formal sense that spin training needs to be reintroduced into the syllabus but there are suggestions that, despite “spin awareness training”, pilots still don’t understand the danger of lack of airspeed in turns.
This can be seen in the various EFATO turn-back crashes and others (this, as an example http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/Bolkow%20207,%20D-ENWA%2006-08.pdf where the pilot seems to have not understood why the aircraft wasn’t climbing but still turned while at very low airspeed – leading to an unrecoverable spin)
It’s been alluded to in a couple of posts in this thread. There’s a general “dumbing down” of life these days and I see the same thing happening in aviation.
Perhaps we need to bring back the Flying Flea?