RE: Spinning on the PPL course
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Just noticed this thread.
IMHO teaching spins is a waste of time in the PPL, because - assuming the pilot is watching his speed - the only place he might stall (and therefore the only place he might spin) is the base to final turn, and there he will be too low to recover anyway.
There is an FAA article on this, where they found that the vast majority (well over 90%, IIRC) of stall/spin accidents would not have been recoverable, due to insufficient height. This was one of the things which led to the certification of the Cirrus SR20/22.
A much more useful thing to teach, IMHO, would be how wing loading affects the stall speed, so e.g. you can pull a tighter turn if you unload the wings by losing some height (a vertical acceleration). This is a good tactic for flying tight circling approaches, etc.
IMHO teaching spins is a waste of time in the PPL, because - assuming the pilot is watching his speed - the only place he might stall (and therefore the only place he might spin) is the base to final turn, and there he will be too low to recover anyway.
There is an FAA article on this, where they found that the vast majority (well over 90%, IIRC) of stall/spin accidents would not have been recoverable, due to insufficient height. This was one of the things which led to the certification of the Cirrus SR20/22.
A much more useful thing to teach, IMHO, would be how wing loading affects the stall speed, so e.g. you can pull a tighter turn if you unload the wings by losing some height (a vertical acceleration). This is a good tactic for flying tight circling approaches, etc.
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IMHO teaching spins is a waste of time in the PPL, because - assuming the pilot is watching his speed - the only place he might stall (and therefore the only place he might spin) is the base to final turn, and there he will be too low to recover anyway.
Experimenting with returning to the runway after an EFATO, checking out what happens if you stall during a cross-controlled turn, trying to self-teach chandelles, overly enthusiastic stall practice; all things that some PPL holders will experiment with, whether someone else thinks it is a good idea or not. And all can result in an aggravated stall, or even an incipient spin, if mishandled.
In addition, some will go on to fly non-certified aircraft, sometimes with less forgiving low speed and stall characteristics. Doing something in one of those that was perfectly ordinary in a PA28 could unexpectedly put them in an unusual attitude. "Ok, let's not do that again, but first, how do I recover??"
Keeping all that in mind, I think spinning during the PPL is a good thing. But only late in the PPL course, and only for those students who would benefit from it, in the instructor's opinion.
I am sure glad I got to spin during my PPL. It was a total Blast!
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There's essentially no G loading except on the recovery, and correctly done, this should be well under 2 g.
Experimenting with returning to the runway after an EFATO, checking out what happens if you stall during a cross-controlled turn, trying to self-teach chandelles, overly enthusiastic stall practice; all things that some PPL holders will experiment with, whether someone else thinks it is a good idea or not. And all can result in an aggravated stall, or even an incipient spin, if mishandled
I reckon the best advice is for everyone post PPL to experience some aerobatics, if they want to, including spins, but in an aerobatic aircraft with an aerobatic instructor, (or someone competent in aeros) wearing a parachute!
(incidentally, Spins "to meet the requirement of the CFI aeronautical experience" are the only aerobatics allowed to be carried out without a parachute on in FAA land.....A PPL could NOT do spins without one)
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IFFFFFFF...it is done correctly. As one pilot who was undergoing spin training for his FAA CFI rating said to me after...."I was starting to get tunnel vision during the recovery, I reckon we were pulling over 4g"....This is in a 1970's C152 - and no matter how airworthy you THINK they are, I'm not prepared to risk it. The bloke before you may have pulled 6g and got away with it and not said anything...
Perhaps a good reason to practice certain unusual attitude recoveries in an A/C with a G-meter.
Last edited by Lightning6; 20th Apr 2009 at 01:19.
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Quote:
"IMHO teaching spins is a waste of time in the PPL, because - assuming the pilot is watching his speed - the only place he might stall (and therefore the only place he might spin) is the base to final turn, and there he will be too low to recover anyway."
Another handy place for that unrecoverably-low spin for a low-hours PPL is that fly-around by Mum and Dad's cottage. Nice'n'low, nice'n'slow, lot's of eyes on the ground rather than the horizon or panel, oops.
Please don't tell me it can't happen.
I remain convinced that maximising the student's familiarity with the more obscure corners of the envelope, and building confidence in their ability to recognise and recover at incipience or, if push comes to shove, at full development, is 'a good thing'.
"IMHO teaching spins is a waste of time in the PPL, because - assuming the pilot is watching his speed - the only place he might stall (and therefore the only place he might spin) is the base to final turn, and there he will be too low to recover anyway."
Another handy place for that unrecoverably-low spin for a low-hours PPL is that fly-around by Mum and Dad's cottage. Nice'n'low, nice'n'slow, lot's of eyes on the ground rather than the horizon or panel, oops.
Please don't tell me it can't happen.
I remain convinced that maximising the student's familiarity with the more obscure corners of the envelope, and building confidence in their ability to recognise and recover at incipience or, if push comes to shove, at full development, is 'a good thing'.
Last edited by FrustratedFormerFlie; 20th Apr 2009 at 13:39. Reason: Repunctuated for clarity
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Another handy place for that unrecoverably-low spin for a low-hours PPL is that fly-around by Mum and Dad's cottage. Nice'n'low, nice'n'slow, lot's of eyes on the ground rather than the horizon or panel, oops.
Oh hang, that's what we do these days........
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What's with the whole either or business? Nobody's suggesting dropping the awareness / avoidance part.
I can only base my opinions on my own experience, however I find it hard to believe anyone having experienced a spin will think it'll be fine at low level just because they know the recovery. - in my opinion it's far more likely to imprint on their mind the danger.
Far more danger (in my opinion) just being told 'spins are bad, mkay?' If you don't know where the limits are, it's easier to accidentally cross them. Knowing in a real, visceral sense what the consequences are is more deterrent than 'because my instructor said so' Certainly what I experienced during my SEP/PPL training didn't meet what I would consider adequate demonstration, more what I'd call 'stall with a wing drop'.
I grant you it's not an early ppl exercise, and I admit I'm thinking more about handling/unusual attitudes in general than spins in particular. Again, it's only my experience, but I'm generally appalled by the lack of comprehension of several of my cohorts as goes aircraft handling appreciation, and what will/won't kill you / is / is not dangerous.
P.S. I think this thread may be in an unrecoverable spin.. we all have our viewpoints and aren't budging
I can only base my opinions on my own experience, however I find it hard to believe anyone having experienced a spin will think it'll be fine at low level just because they know the recovery. - in my opinion it's far more likely to imprint on their mind the danger.
Far more danger (in my opinion) just being told 'spins are bad, mkay?' If you don't know where the limits are, it's easier to accidentally cross them. Knowing in a real, visceral sense what the consequences are is more deterrent than 'because my instructor said so' Certainly what I experienced during my SEP/PPL training didn't meet what I would consider adequate demonstration, more what I'd call 'stall with a wing drop'.
I grant you it's not an early ppl exercise, and I admit I'm thinking more about handling/unusual attitudes in general than spins in particular. Again, it's only my experience, but I'm generally appalled by the lack of comprehension of several of my cohorts as goes aircraft handling appreciation, and what will/won't kill you / is / is not dangerous.
P.S. I think this thread may be in an unrecoverable spin.. we all have our viewpoints and aren't budging
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My first spin recovery lesson was 30Hrs into my PPL course, which I think is reasonable, I did quite a few after that.
As I've said before, leaving the safety side of it, (reluctantly), it gave me a lot more confidence, so much so that I went on to do an aerobatics course post PPL, in fact my first introduction to aerobatics was on the same day I passed my GFT.
I know spin recovery will never be re-introduced to the PPL syllabus, but I recommend post PPL training, preferably with an FI that has experience in training you, not an hour builder that has had limited experience.
But, as you say Mark, I think the subject is done to death.
As I've said before, leaving the safety side of it, (reluctantly), it gave me a lot more confidence, so much so that I went on to do an aerobatics course post PPL, in fact my first introduction to aerobatics was on the same day I passed my GFT.
I know spin recovery will never be re-introduced to the PPL syllabus, but I recommend post PPL training, preferably with an FI that has experience in training you, not an hour builder that has had limited experience.
But, as you say Mark, I think the subject is done to death.
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My last comment on this thread (I think), there was a poll on another forum on this subject, results:-
64% for.
36% against.
64% for.
36% against.
Last edited by Lightning6; 21st Apr 2009 at 03:11.
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....Or in gusty conditions
....Or if there's airframe icing
....Or if the ASI isn't working properly
....Or if they've miscalculated their weight (or got the CofG wrong)
....Or they're pulling more than 1G
....Or the prop has stopped and is causing more drag than expected (and is increasing the pilot's workload)
Am curious.....how can you do 'tight' circling without pulling back on the stick and so increasing the wing loading (and so increasing the risk of a stall)?
Am curious.....how can you do 'tight' circling without pulling back on the stick and so increasing the wing loading (and so increasing the risk of a stall)?
However, on the original point of "should we do full spins" I suspect we are in violent agreement that, yes, we should at some point teach spinning. The disagreement is not if, but when, yes?
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In my opinion it is a valuable piece of flying that should be in the PPL course. I did in mine only a phew years ago and feel much safer knowing that I can deal with it now.
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Anyone heard that FSS out of control.mp3 ? Where that guy is screaming may-day as he's in a roll/spin and doesn't know how to get out of it then the ATC guy tells him to release the column and he gets straight and level again. A very chilling audio clip. From memory I think it's in the liveatc forums in audio clips.
I'm almost done my PPL, and I have done how to avoid the spin, doing incipient spins, but after watching hundreds of videos on youtubes, I actually want to learn how to recover from spins whilst being in a full spin. For my own saftey for the future.
I'm almost done my PPL, and I have done how to avoid the spin, doing incipient spins, but after watching hundreds of videos on youtubes, I actually want to learn how to recover from spins whilst being in a full spin. For my own saftey for the future.
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I actually want to learn how to recover from spins whilst being in a full spin.
The aircraft you fly regularly will most likely NOT be the same aircraft and as such it will have different spin characteristics and recovery techniques. Even though your regular mount may not be approved for intentional spinning, a test pilot will have spun (or at least, attempted to spin) the aircraft, and the approved recovery technique resulting of those tests will be written in the POH.
So it's a lame answer but if you want to know how to recover from a spin, read the POH. (Preferably beforehand.)
Having said that, spin recovery, in most cases, will happen with the stick/yoke neutral (in pitch and roll) or slightly forward, and full rudder against the spin. But every aircraft is different and the POH, at the end of the day, has the final answer.
I went to one of our clubs Unusual Attitudes days, particularly because I wanted to see what a spin would look like and how I would cope. I was very surprised to see that all the things I'd read about the spin, and seen in various videos, were all true, and that I managed to recover from the spin almost instinctively. Of course, with unusual attitude training you are fully aware of what's going to happen, and you initiate the spin yourself so you know what direction it's in.
But even if you've never spun an aircraft before and you get into a spin, trust your reflexes. Assuming you've had good ground and flight training, that is.
(And to complete, and as others have said before, the most likely situation where you'll spin is so close to the ground that you don't have time to recover anyway.)
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And to complete, and as others have said before, the most likely situation where you'll spin is so close to the ground that you don't have time to recover anyway.
That is what I was alluding to in my previous post. More than a few pilots occasionally do things where they might end up in an incipient spin at altitude, while not being engaged in aerobatics. Sure, it's not all that common, and accidents resulting from such flying is rare.
But in my view, our job as pilots is not to reduce accident statistics (although we're obviously interested in those as well). Rather, our job is to ensure the safety of each and every flight we make. If you have an accident, or even a dangerous incident, because your training was insufficient for that particular flight, then it is no excuse that the accident was an extraordinary event that would not be statistically interesting.
I'm glad I got spin training during my PPL, because I feel it makes me a better pilot. Expanding my capability limits means my flying is done further away from those limits (even when, for instance, doing stall practice or EFATO training on my own).
However, if I was a flight instructor facing the prospect of routinely doing spin training in non-aerobatic aircraft without parachutes, I'd probably not be all that eager...
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Just for fun, have you ever heard the story about the very first pilot who managed to recover from a spin in a Wright Flyer?
Tell you anyway. The Wright Brothers were aware of the tendency of their prototype to drop a wing and nose into the sand at Kitty Hawk. They called it "well digging". Could be avoided by careful handling.
But every now and then an early aircraft would enter into the fatal descent, despite the pilots best efforts, trying to raise the nose by hauling back on the stick.
So one chap, realising he was heading for a terminal arrival, decided to get it over with quickly and pushed the stick forward instead . . . . . .
Tell you anyway. The Wright Brothers were aware of the tendency of their prototype to drop a wing and nose into the sand at Kitty Hawk. They called it "well digging". Could be avoided by careful handling.
But every now and then an early aircraft would enter into the fatal descent, despite the pilots best efforts, trying to raise the nose by hauling back on the stick.
So one chap, realising he was heading for a terminal arrival, decided to get it over with quickly and pushed the stick forward instead . . . . . .
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Hello!
End even less so, if it is not required by the training syllabus and most training aircraft are not cleared for intentional spinning asnyway. Or haven't been been spun at all during their certification process, as is the case with everything from light twin upward (including the light twin itself!).
Am I a bad pilot, because I have not spun a single turn during my own training? Am I a bad instructor, because I have not spun a single turn with any of my students (from PPL to ATPL/ME)? I don't know. I don't care, to be honest. I hope I can consider myself a good pilot when, reaching the age of retirement, I still have not spun a single turn :-)
Greetings, Max
However, if I was a flight instructor facing the prospect of routinely doing spin training in non-aerobatic aircraft without parachutes, I'd probably not be all that eager...
Am I a bad pilot, because I have not spun a single turn during my own training? Am I a bad instructor, because I have not spun a single turn with any of my students (from PPL to ATPL/ME)? I don't know. I don't care, to be honest. I hope I can consider myself a good pilot when, reaching the age of retirement, I still have not spun a single turn :-)
Greetings, Max
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In my opinion it is a valuable piece of flying that should be in the PPL course. I did in mine only a phew years ago and feel much safer knowing that I can deal with it now.
I too have done quite a bit of spinning in training, both in SEP and gliders. It would be a mistake to assume that you "know you can deal with it now". The spin characteristics of every type are different, and they are greatly affected by the C of G position so crew weight and fuel loading make a big difference.
In my case I was in a Beagle Pup 150, nearly 25 years ago. This is the airframe from which the RAF's Bulldog was developed. I was with an instructor and had done plenty of spins before. She wanted a fully developed power-on spin. My initial enties did not result in anything that met her requirements so she took over and with a very firm entry we were into a spin. She held it for about a turn and then gave it to me and told me to recover. During the attempted recovery the nose rose so we were in a very flat attitude. "Stick fully forward" she said "It is" said I, banging it against the forward stop to emphasise the point. Normal recovery technique was not working and we were rapidly losing height. Eventually she gave a big blast of power, the propwash lifted the tail and we started to pick up some airspeed, the controls once more started to become effective and I got a normal recovery, by which time the ground was uncomfortably close.
There are big differences between an incipient spin, a fully developed spin, and one that has gone flat. A lot of people who assume they "can recover from a spin" have never experienced a really fully developed one.
It is IMHO far more important to drum into students an automatic recognition and recovery from the incipient stage. No-one should ever get anywhere near a fully developed spin in normal flight.
Once you've learnt to fly then by all means get into a suitable aircraft with a suitably experienced instructor and practice falling out of the sky from a safe height, if you get into aerobatics then it's an essential skill (I always seem to come out of stall turns upside down).