RE: Spinning on the PPL course

[englishal]

Without wishing to prolong the life of this thread beyond it's Use By date ....But a spin is just ONE thing that can "go wrong" if it is done unintentionally. What about recovering from inverted? I was almost inverted by wake turbulence once - at 1500', but have never come close to an unintentional spin.

There isn't time or a need on a PPL course to go through all of this "advanced" stuff, so best left until post PPL in a capable aircraft with a capable instructor...when the "student" can start to appreciate what is going on and even enjoy it. I know I'd feel happy doing just about anything in a +6/-3g aeroplane with parachute on and capable, professional aero's instructor beside me, rather than Psycho Dave and his 152 !

I'm not sure what you mean by stalls only being taught to the incipient stage Pace? - Is this true nowadays? I've always fully stalled, power on, power off, clean, landing configs, accellerated, turning etc....Even the "falling leaf" where you hold it stalled for 20-30 seconds.

[Pilot DAR]

There is mention that spins should be taught after the PPL is earned. How would that work! Once you issue the PPL, what is the incentive for the poorly financed new pilot to spend the money on that training? There's no dangling carrot anymore! I have met many Canadian pilots who have told me that the last time they spun was during pilot training X years ago. Well, at least they've done it....

As a new solo pilot, with about 18 hours, I was up practicing spins - by myself.

There seems to be a thought that aircraft will only spin, if mishandled into a spin. I don't agree. One of the many ways to get an aircraft to begin a spin is to stall a slightly misrigged plane. Surprisinly easy to do with a plane with no stall warning system. Every one of the dozen or so Citabrias and Champs I have flown, dropped a wing during stalls, and could not be prevented from doing so. It would seem that in those days of aircraft desing, the dropping of one wing was the stall indication! I'm not picking on those type, they're wonderful, but they do have slightly more challengine stall characteristics. Certainly all other types can be misrigged, and have a failed stall waring system. Just one of the ways for the unwary pilot to get into a spin.

New pilots might not need to demostrate recovery skills during a flight test, but yes, it sould be an entry in a logbook during flight training, which is checked at the time of PPL issue.

Pilot DAR

[Pace]

I'm not sure what you mean by stalls only being taught to the incipient stage Pace? - Is this true nowadays? I've always fully stalled, power on, power off, clean, landing configs, accellerated, turning etc....Even the "falling leaf" where you hold it stalled for 20-30 seconds.

Many instructors like recovery before the stall is fully developed and many students are only too keen to recover at the first sign of a stall.

Go into twins and even more so as there is always the fear of unequal power being applied on recovery through either an engine or pilot application problem with a resultant spin from the stall.

Pace

[Lister Noble]

I'm sure that teaching full stall and recovery is part of the standard PPL course.
I did a lot of stall practice as part of my tuition,surely it's essential,as you stall everytime you land.
Hopefully a few inches above ground
Lister

[bjornhall]

Once you issue the PPL, what is the incentive for the poorly financed new pilot to spend the money on that training?

The world's simplest question... Because it's fun, of course!

Isn't that why we're flying to begin with?

[BackPacker]

Once you issue the PPL, what is the incentive for the poorly financed new pilot to spend the money on that training?

Been thinking about that. Maybe AOPA and similar organizations could come up with an incentive program like the glider world has with Bronze/Silver/Diamond. No formal rating or qualification and no now privileges, but just some sort of award or awards system you can work towards as a private pilot after obtaining your PPL.

Some elements/requirements of such an award could be:
- A certain number of PIC hours
- Unusual attitudes training including spinning
- Basic aerobatics
- Basic formation flying
- Long-distance x-country flights / channel crossing
- High altitude flight / oxygen
- Mountain flying
- Short field landing/take-off, farmstrip flying, precision landing

Such a system may give PPLs just that extra push to keep on training beyond their PPL and flying beyond their 100-euro sunday lunch. Who knows, it might even give the "achiever" types a new goal after obtaining their PPL, instead of dropping out of flying altogether.

[421dog]

Those aren't the guys I'm worried about. It's the fella flying my family into some podunk strip in a Caravan or a Navajo who is hell-bent on an airline job, got his current job by instructing in a katana for 400 hrs, putting in the minimum amout of time obtaining his ratings in a stepwise fashion, and has no idea how to find his A@# with his hands when the chips are down because we've rationalized away teaching people how to actually FLY. Do any of you really think that either of those idiots who killed 48 other people in Buffalo a few months ago were anything more than TERRIFIED of stalls? Their airplane apparently reacted normally and they behaved completely inappropriately (I would posit, because they were taught by people who believed that "teaching avoidance, and demonstrating things to an incipient point" is the best way to go).
Once you have a basic understanding of what an aircraft actually does when you fly it stupidly, you are at least equipped to recognize and correct your mistakes before you kill someone else.
Wags have often noted that aviation is years of boredom punctuated by seconds of terror. Well, damnit, our job as pilots and instructors is to be ready for those seconds by knowing EXACTLY what to do.

Anything else is sophistry...

[Pilot DAR]

Well 421 dog,

I wouldn't have the nerve to phrase it the way you did, but I agree with you 100%. It's the pilots who are just trying to get away with the minimum, to advance to the next phase, who really scare me. As I previously asserted, any pilot who is unwilling to demonstrate the composure under pressure, to execute at least a reasonably skilled spin recovery in anything they fly, should not have a license. Sure, it might be a bid scary, but it's one of those things we either meet head on, or get out of the business entirely.

Pilot DAR

[Lightning6]

Originally Posted by Pilot DAR

Well 421 dog,

I wouldn't have the nerve to phrase it the way you did, but I agree with you 100%. It's the pilots who are just trying to get away with the minimum, to advance to the next phase, who really scare me. As I previously asserted, any pilot who is unwilling to demonstrate the composure under pressure, to execute at least a reasonably skilled spin recovery in anything they fly, should not have a license. Sure, it might be a bid scary, but it's one of those things we either meet head on, or get out of the business entirely.

Pilot DAR

It's not scary at all, when trained properly, and I don't mean just a demonstration, spin recovery should be a reaction rather than something you have to think about.

Once one has done a few spin recoveries, the fear of the unknown will go, and will give you more confidence in the handling of your aircraft.

Edit to say, if you are unable to do it pre PPL, then do it as soon as you can post PPL...With an FI that is competent and not an hour builder that has had little spin recovery training themselves.

[shortstripper]

I used to be of the opinion that spinning should be part of the PPL, but I've changed my mind as the aurguments against do make a lot of sense. Also, it's now a bit academic, as a good portion of the training fleet are not cleared for intentional spinning anyway. However, I do believe that as a pilot, you owe it to yourself to experience spinning as soon as you feel you can (be that during PPL training, or shortly after).

I started out as a glider pilot, and as such, spinning really HAD to be learnt! After all, you spend a fair bit of time scratching for lift low down in tight turns, often nibbling at the edge of the stall. Whilst it's rare to actually get into a full spin here (normally a quick push re-establishes the airflow) it is possible! Of course gliders are very different beasties to SEP's, but they can bite just the same, so their pilots practice stalls and spins a lot!

The driving analogy is good, and whilst I agree a lot of what Bose-X says, I don't agree with him on this. If you fly or drive I think you really should know how to control that vehicle in any possible occurance. Skid pan training might be impractical but would certainly introduce some real fun into the whole thing and be very educational. I can't believe how many misconceptions about skidding are held by even experienced drivers!!! For example, ABS will stop you skidding and 4WD will always give you grip! (Range Rovers are one of the worst cars to stop on black ice).

I'd rather not fly with somebody who fears stalls and spinning, but then I'd also rather not fly with someone who wants to spin at every opportunity or in an inappropriate aeroplane!

Oh, and can we stop mentioning stall speed! You can fly an aircraft at pretty much zero speed and not be stalled!

SS

(edited as it's been pointed out to me that I might have been unfair to the good old Range Rover. Actually I love them and consider them one of the best off roaders ever! However, like most big 4WD's they have big tyres and a lot of momentum ..... but more importantly, they are often driven by t@ssers!)

[BackPacker]

Oh, and can we stop mentioning stall speed! You can fly an aircraft at pretty much zero speed and not be stalled!

You can fly an aircraft backwards and not be stalled. (Well, not me personally, but in general.)

Nevertheless, "stall speed" is a very common term denoting the 1g MTOW stall speed and is a very useful number to know, if only to calculate whether you can do a 4g/75 degrees competition turn with a certain speed or whether you need to limit yourself to 2g/60 degrees.

And of course the turn to final is normally flown at 1g so the stall speed in that situation is indeed the speed at which the aircraft will stall. Unless the aircraft is significantly below MTOW, in which case you have a buffer.

[biscuit74]

"1) Start a tight turn at a low airspeed

2) Add a bit of rudder to speed up the turn

3) Notice that you are banking a bit more than you'd like to and add some opposite aileron to "flatten the turn"

4) Notice that the nose seems to be falling and add elevator.
All of which are taught in spin avoidance.......... "


That is what we used to do as the best spin demo (IMO) in glider pilot training. To help pupils understand the most likely mechanism for that inadvertent spin entry. And to get them to immediately apply recovery action. Essentially avoidance, by helping pupils to recognise the symptoms as things start to bite.
Suince that once saved my bacon, while foolishly distracted, I think it was worthwhile.

Of course we also typically do full spin training and recovery in gliders/sailplanes because we spend so much more time at relatively slow speed, high AoA, turning, compared to most power operations.

Incidentally, when we trained our kids to drive, all were given skid pan training and rally / race car training, so that they understood a little better the limitations of their vehicles and what happens at or near that limit. They are all still alive, and have had a fairly good record driving sio far. In Finland, this sort of thing is mandatory for all drivers. I think it is a darn good thing. And the UK's motorway no learners rule is lunacy.

No, the authorities won't change back from the cotton wool approach for flying training, because they believe in tick boxes and are scared of legal action. Nowt to do with real safety, I feel.
Personally I don't see any great need to scare folk with excessive spinning, but I'd like to see a deal more emphasis on slow flight and recovery from incipients.

What happened to showing the pupils the various 'edges of the envelope' ? Is it still done?
Do we take pupils to Vne, or near it, once at least to show the sensitivity of controls? I'm sure that was demonstrated to me when I was training long ago?
(I'm not asking this to stir things up on here, just curious - if spinning is relevant, presumably so is this. If spinning is not now viewed as relevant, then this presumably also is not?)

[Tail-take-off]

Biscuit74

As I recall when I did my PPL training 21 years ago there was a minimum ammount of "stall/spin awareness & avoidance" required for PPL issue. I think it was 5 hours of slow flight & stalling (clean, with flaps, in the turn & both of the above).

Spinning was not actually required but incipient spins were difficult to avoid when stalling during a turn in a Tomahawk.

As you may recall from our flights together I do very much enjoy spinning (think half flicks in a puchacz) but not everyone is as masochistic as you an I. The point you make about slow flight is spot on. Emphasis should be on recognition of the on set of the stall.

[englishal]

There is mention that spins should be taught after the PPL is earned. How would that work! Once you issue the PPL, what is the incentive for the poorly financed new pilot to spend the money on that training? There's no dangling carrot anymore! I have met many Canadian pilots who have told me that the last time they spun was during pilot training X years ago. Well, at least they've done it....

Umm...well post PPL, as well as all the experience I gained in general flying, I did an IR, a ME rating, a CPL (2 actually, one in ME) and aerobatics. None of this I HAD to do, I did it because it was fun, all of it, and made me a better and safer pilot. You don't always need to FORCE people to do stuff, most PPLs will realise that a while after getting the PPL it is time for more training and to broaden the horizons.

[biscuit74]

Tail-Take-off ;

Masochistic? Nous?

Thanks I hadn't realised so much time was devoted to slow flying in the standard PPL syllabus - old style at least.

[Pilot DAR]

most PPLs will realise that a while after getting the PPL it is time for more training and to broaden the horizons

Things must be different in the UK! I would estimate that less than a quarter of the pilots (not just PPL's) I encounter seek out any more training or mentoring other than the minimum required. Sad as it is, I've had chief pilots and flying instructors who were my passengers, ask me to demonstrate unusual manuevers for their benefit (including spins), when they were supposed to be checking me out!

Considering the importance of spin training, I cannot be comfortable that those PPL's who most need the extra exposure, would seek it out, once set free with a PPL. Sure, the "keeners" will, and they will steadily gain proficiency, but those are not the typical pilots who really need this kind of training.

If we are going to just trust that pilots will always assure for themselves that their skills are up as they should be, and the seek out any additional training that they need, we might as well let them issue their own PPL or recurrency checks when they feel ready! No skills demonstration required!

We don't know what we don't know....

Pilot DAR

[1800ed]

Many instructors like recovery before the stall is fully developed and many students are only too keen to recover at the first sign of a stall.

I've felt a bit disappointed when an instructor I flew with once or twice would ask me to recover from the stall really early. Where's the fun in that!?

[Tail-take-off]

I've felt a bit disappointed when an instructor I flew with once or twice would ask me to recover from the stall really early. Where's the fun in that!?

During a training flight in a glider my instructor asked me to stall the aircraft, & recover with minimum height loss, while talking him through the symptoms. So as we approached the stall I a ran through low airspeed, high nose attitude, reduced noise level, lighter less effective controls & the start of buffett. At which point he called recover which I duly did.

I felt a little short changed too but clearly he was satisfied that I could recognise the onset of the stall & new the recovery technique. Disappointment didn't last long. I was sent straight off on my first solo.

[Pace]

I felt a little short changed too but clearly he was satisfied that I could recognise the onset of the stall & new the recovery technique. Disappointment didn't last long. I was sent straight off on my first solo.

This is part of the discussion of the tendancy towards avoidance not only are pilots not experiencing a spin but how many are not experiencing stalling either? It is important to experience the full envelope before a pilot can handle an aircraft rather than mechanically fly it.

Pace

[shortstripper]

I wasn't allowed to solo a glider until I'd done cable breaks and full spin recovery ... I thought that was standard practice? It was when I was gliding in the 80's

SS