RE: Spinning on the PPL course
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Though I still hold my position that spinning should be taught, to assure that new pilots appreciate it's seriousness, and don't completely freeze at the controls when anything like that happens to them, I also see that there is a disincintive to fly ing for those who really fear it. Were I to be a regulatory sky god, the position I would take would be that new pilots cannot become PPL's until a suitable qualified instructor attests that he or she has demonstrated an incipient spin and recovery to the new pilot.
I can be brought to agree that it may not be necessary for the new pilot to demonstrate that they have the skill to affect a recovery form a spin. I cannot be brought to agree that a new pilot should be insulated from the unpleasant experience. If they come down with a queezy tummy - tough, it's part of flying.
As I think about it, the student pilot should be required at a minimum to demonstrate unusual attitude recoveries associated with spins. Meaning the instructor does a gentle wingover ans says "it's yours". If the queezy tummied student can't muster enough reserve capacity to recover an unusual attitude, and fly home, they really do not have what it takes to be a pilot.
My airplane has been tied up doing testing all winter, and I could only fly it right side up. Last night was my first opportunity to do airwork in months in it. After an hour of loops, rolls, spins and wingovers, I had an upset tummy, and was again "recent" in unusual attitude recovery, required for two flight tests next week. One spin wound itself up quite well. Some things in flying are not as much fun as they sound. It does not mean that they should not at least be required to be demonstrated!
Pilot DAR
I can be brought to agree that it may not be necessary for the new pilot to demonstrate that they have the skill to affect a recovery form a spin. I cannot be brought to agree that a new pilot should be insulated from the unpleasant experience. If they come down with a queezy tummy - tough, it's part of flying.
As I think about it, the student pilot should be required at a minimum to demonstrate unusual attitude recoveries associated with spins. Meaning the instructor does a gentle wingover ans says "it's yours". If the queezy tummied student can't muster enough reserve capacity to recover an unusual attitude, and fly home, they really do not have what it takes to be a pilot.
My airplane has been tied up doing testing all winter, and I could only fly it right side up. Last night was my first opportunity to do airwork in months in it. After an hour of loops, rolls, spins and wingovers, I had an upset tummy, and was again "recent" in unusual attitude recovery, required for two flight tests next week. One spin wound itself up quite well. Some things in flying are not as much fun as they sound. It does not mean that they should not at least be required to be demonstrated!
Pilot DAR
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What is emerging from this thread is a disagreement over the best time in one's training to experience and recognise a spin, and to avoid or correct as needed.
Not until five years after starting to fly could I anticipate the required spins without fear and trembling. Certainly not helped by a macho power instructor who I think wanted to actively discourage my further flying.
I still came back. But got a different instructor.
As a gliding instructor, we introduce a "confidence stall" at the very beginning, in fact, 2 or 3 gentle stalls just to get over the fear of stalling.
(And I like to demonstrate that we stall on EVERY flight, if it is a properly held off landing).
But a fully developed spin is a real freak out for a lot of people. I did make the mistake of using one to descend from 5,000' after a half hour's trial lesson with a very very bold pupil, who actually asked for a spin. He never came back. (During the flight, I asked what he did for a living, he told me he was a bomb disposal expert on a nearby base).
Even experienced pilots still dread the spin, even in the docile K13. I must say overall I agree with the current approach, because even if someone has turned back dangerously after EFATO, and added to the statistics, can this not be better avoided by emphasising correct action of landing ahead?
Not until five years after starting to fly could I anticipate the required spins without fear and trembling. Certainly not helped by a macho power instructor who I think wanted to actively discourage my further flying.
I still came back. But got a different instructor.
As a gliding instructor, we introduce a "confidence stall" at the very beginning, in fact, 2 or 3 gentle stalls just to get over the fear of stalling.
(And I like to demonstrate that we stall on EVERY flight, if it is a properly held off landing).
But a fully developed spin is a real freak out for a lot of people. I did make the mistake of using one to descend from 5,000' after a half hour's trial lesson with a very very bold pupil, who actually asked for a spin. He never came back. (During the flight, I asked what he did for a living, he told me he was a bomb disposal expert on a nearby base).
Even experienced pilots still dread the spin, even in the docile K13. I must say overall I agree with the current approach, because even if someone has turned back dangerously after EFATO, and added to the statistics, can this not be better avoided by emphasising correct action of landing ahead?
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What is emerging from this thread is a disagreement over the best time in one's training to experience and recognise a spin,
I do not regard spinning as a single item but put it in the same box as all unusual attitude manouvres.
You may as well say no pilots need to do steep turns as you can teach avoidance by limiting them to rate one turns. Where do you stop. A spiral dive can be mistaken for a spin yet needs a different recovery. Both can be unpleasant manouvres but it is important to understand both and experience both.
I would seriously require student pilots to have 1 to 2 hours in an aerobatic plane to run through the whole regime of unusual attitudes and maybe add it as the last item before recieving a PPL and carrying passengers. Take that hour or two off the existing PPL schedule so as not to add costs.
Pilots have to be able to handle an aircraft not just fly it like ill equipt zombies.
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I never got to experiance the spin on my ppl course due to the fact that we couldn't get a pa28 to spin. Theoretically i could correct it but in a real life situation i don't know.
Is recovery easy in practice like it is, shown in the book?
Is recovery easy in practice like it is, shown in the book?
When I went through training, we had an excellent 16mm film called 'Spinning Modern Aircraft' which showed what both erect and inverted spins were like in the Hunter T7. Bearing in mind that we weren't cleared to stall the Hunter, let alone spin it, this was an excellent spin awareness lesson tool.
Many 'spin resistant' aircraft can only be provoked into a convincing spin with some trick flying; the type of flying which is highly unlikely to be encountered in normal flying. Who, for example, is going to pull the control column fully aft whilst applying full rudder, then hold it there - inadvertently?
A well-made training DVD showing what spinning is like should be enough to instill sufficient awareness of the fully developed spin into most student pilots. I would sooner concentrate on safe low speed handling and incipinet stall awareness than wasting time terrifying students with frankly irrelevant exercises.
After all, the recent fatal airliner crashes with at least 3 pilots on each flight deck (Perpignan A320 and the Turkish Airlines 737) were most probably due to small technical issues distracting pilots from awareness of the impending stall.
ShyTorque, dogs don't bite unless provoked. So teach people not to - they don't really need to feel the pain!
Many 'spin resistant' aircraft can only be provoked into a convincing spin with some trick flying; the type of flying which is highly unlikely to be encountered in normal flying. Who, for example, is going to pull the control column fully aft whilst applying full rudder, then hold it there - inadvertently?
A well-made training DVD showing what spinning is like should be enough to instill sufficient awareness of the fully developed spin into most student pilots. I would sooner concentrate on safe low speed handling and incipinet stall awareness than wasting time terrifying students with frankly irrelevant exercises.
After all, the recent fatal airliner crashes with at least 3 pilots on each flight deck (Perpignan A320 and the Turkish Airlines 737) were most probably due to small technical issues distracting pilots from awareness of the impending stall.
ShyTorque, dogs don't bite unless provoked. So teach people not to - they don't really need to feel the pain!
Last edited by BEagle; 17th Apr 2009 at 18:04.
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It is not a "queezy tummy" that would put me off, but a tired, old 1970's C152 which has been abused as a training aeroplane all of it's life.
Funnily enough in 9 years of flying I have yet to put myself into an unintentional spin. I did end up upside down once, falling with style...........with the aero's instructor sat next to me laughing at my poor attempts to recover from the upside down stall at the top of the loop. I had left full throttle on so we were hurtling earthwards rather fast so I guess he though he better help me out
I agree with sentiments that "advanced flying" should be taught but I think it is something that people should do post PPL when that have built enough confidence in day to day flying that they might actually start becoming lax. I never did complete my aero's, maybe something I should continue this summer.....
Funnily enough in 9 years of flying I have yet to put myself into an unintentional spin. I did end up upside down once, falling with style...........with the aero's instructor sat next to me laughing at my poor attempts to recover from the upside down stall at the top of the loop. I had left full throttle on so we were hurtling earthwards rather fast so I guess he though he better help me out
I agree with sentiments that "advanced flying" should be taught but I think it is something that people should do post PPL when that have built enough confidence in day to day flying that they might actually start becoming lax. I never did complete my aero's, maybe something I should continue this summer.....
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The only time you can spin inadvertently? Really?
There have been a few postings on thsi to the efect that the only inadvertent spins happen on the turn to finals when there is insufficient height to recover anyway.
I beg to differ.
For me, the most likely circumstance for an inadvertent spin is through disorientation in cloud (whether entered deliberately with an appropraiet rating or accidentally without one).
This does happen, and the ability to recognise the spin - from instruments alone if necessary (and using instruments to confirm or correct visual/physiological cues in any event) - and recover is a life saver.
I am no fan of scaring students off with early introduction of violent manouevres of any kind. But perhaps if a student isn't up to tackling the challenge of recognising and recovering from a spin before the award of his/her PPL (note, not necessarily before first solo!), perhaps another trip or two to build their confidence and understanding of flying would be a better investment than banking another stat of a 'wings award in minimum hours, saving the student's precious cash'.
There are bigger favours an instructor can do than save the stude's dosh!
I beg to differ.
For me, the most likely circumstance for an inadvertent spin is through disorientation in cloud (whether entered deliberately with an appropraiet rating or accidentally without one).
This does happen, and the ability to recognise the spin - from instruments alone if necessary (and using instruments to confirm or correct visual/physiological cues in any event) - and recover is a life saver.
I am no fan of scaring students off with early introduction of violent manouevres of any kind. But perhaps if a student isn't up to tackling the challenge of recognising and recovering from a spin before the award of his/her PPL (note, not necessarily before first solo!), perhaps another trip or two to build their confidence and understanding of flying would be a better investment than banking another stat of a 'wings award in minimum hours, saving the student's precious cash'.
There are bigger favours an instructor can do than save the stude's dosh!
Moderator
It is not a "queezy tummy" that would put me off, but a tired, old 1970's C152 which has been abused as a training aeroplane all of it's life.
A plane is either airworthy, or it is not. If it is, it can safely do whatever it was approved to do. If it is not airworthy, it should not be flown.
As long as those of us within our industry refer to older aircraft as less than entirely airworthy, we are doing ourselves a terrible dis-service. If we lack confidence in our aircraft, and the people who maintain them, how could we ever impart confidence in aviation safety to those around us? My 70's 150 is older than the 70's 152, and I looped, rolled and spun it last night. I crossed the desert of Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona three weeks ago in a Cessna which is 46 years old. What a delightful OLD bird!
Pilot DAR
I spin my cub, and it is 56 years old. Even older than me......
Pity the cg requirements only let me do it solo, but it is pretty docile. I can just persuade it to go over the top wing, going with the prop. Once going round nicely it will stay in hands off.
A C150 will do mch the same, with care.
Pity the cg requirements only let me do it solo, but it is pretty docile. I can just persuade it to go over the top wing, going with the prop. Once going round nicely it will stay in hands off.
A C150 will do mch the same, with care.
A spin isn't exactly a violent manuver. The thing that freaks people out is watching the nose come down through the vertical, and, as was pointed out earlier, the control force needed to keep the "vertical snap roll" going. There's essentially no G loading except on the recovery, and correctly done, this should be well under 2 g.
In planes that WILL spin (like Beech sundowners, Citabrias, and Stearmans, to name a few) it's disconcerting that the pilot has to DO something to "Make It Stop!". Now, that "something" is generally fairly simple, but it's not initially intuitive. If we don't teach it, MOST of the people who end up in the situation will not be able to figure it out for themselves before they end up dead.
In planes that WILL spin (like Beech sundowners, Citabrias, and Stearmans, to name a few) it's disconcerting that the pilot has to DO something to "Make It Stop!". Now, that "something" is generally fairly simple, but it's not initially intuitive. If we don't teach it, MOST of the people who end up in the situation will not be able to figure it out for themselves before they end up dead.
It is not a "queezy tummy" that would put me off, but a tired, old 1970's C152 which has been abused as a training aeroplane all of it's life.
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As I think about it, the student pilot should be required at a minimum to demonstrate unusual attitude recoveries associated with spins. Meaning the instructor does a gentle wingover ans says "it's yours". If the queezy tummied student can't muster enough reserve capacity to recover an unusual attitude, and fly home, they really do not have what it takes to be a pilot.
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I did my PPL in '86 and Spinning was included. We weren't allowed to spin solo during training, but with 5x 17 year olds on a scholarship, competition soon breaks out to see who can hold a C150 in for the most turns.
Unfortunately our CFI had a mishap practicing a low-level spin for the Norwich Air Show and entered the ground at an 80 degree angle
Unfortunately our CFI had a mishap practicing a low-level spin for the Norwich Air Show and entered the ground at an 80 degree angle
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I find it amusing that spin training creates such angst amongst pilots. It is simply another maneuvre which is eminently controllable and part of the flight envelope - on approved aircraft (however even aircraft that aren't approved for intentional spins, have had to have been spun during certifcation - I think recovery from a two or three turn spin IIRC with various control inputs - someone will know...)
Anyway as has been shown here, and as was stated a couple of pages back, spinning is a pschological thing. People mentioned students get scared so we shouldn't do them. We are only scared in life because of two things, firstly we don't understand something and secondly we don't know what to do about it. Spin training rectifies these things. Some people may not like it, but at least with proper training they will know they can get out of it and recover easily.
To me it is very very simple. Can an aircraft stall? Yes. Can and aircraft spin? Yes. Therefore as pilots its behoves us and those we fly with to know what to do if it happens. The argument about base to final turns and where in the flight envelope it may or may not occur is irrelevant. If an aircraft is capable of it then we need to know how to deal with it. We learn how to deal with every other type of emergency so why not inadvertent spins?
Bose, I agree, they won't be put back into the syllabus and I do take your point about experience levels, however the school I fly at, teaches in Citabrias and includes stalls and fulls spins in their training as well as basic aerobatics / unusual attitude recovery. They have one of the best reputations in Australia for turning out pilots who can actually fly an aircraft within its full flight envelope
My point here is just because the minimum standard says level X is acceptable, does not mean instructors and schools can't teach to a higher level Y. It comes down to personal standards and not just accepting the mediocre (again a psychological thing).
My final point is that it is the initial instructors that a student has, that really defines the standards that a student will set for themselves. So if level X is acceptable and we only need to do the minimum, and this is what the school supports and does not push the student to a higher standard, then level X is all we can expect. I take exception to you stating that students can't handle the extra work of learning spins. From what I have seen and experienced at this school, that is absolute hogwash, a student will do whatever you teach them to do.
Just my two cents.
Cheers
CB
Anyway as has been shown here, and as was stated a couple of pages back, spinning is a pschological thing. People mentioned students get scared so we shouldn't do them. We are only scared in life because of two things, firstly we don't understand something and secondly we don't know what to do about it. Spin training rectifies these things. Some people may not like it, but at least with proper training they will know they can get out of it and recover easily.
To me it is very very simple. Can an aircraft stall? Yes. Can and aircraft spin? Yes. Therefore as pilots its behoves us and those we fly with to know what to do if it happens. The argument about base to final turns and where in the flight envelope it may or may not occur is irrelevant. If an aircraft is capable of it then we need to know how to deal with it. We learn how to deal with every other type of emergency so why not inadvertent spins?
Bose, I agree, they won't be put back into the syllabus and I do take your point about experience levels, however the school I fly at, teaches in Citabrias and includes stalls and fulls spins in their training as well as basic aerobatics / unusual attitude recovery. They have one of the best reputations in Australia for turning out pilots who can actually fly an aircraft within its full flight envelope
My point here is just because the minimum standard says level X is acceptable, does not mean instructors and schools can't teach to a higher level Y. It comes down to personal standards and not just accepting the mediocre (again a psychological thing).
My final point is that it is the initial instructors that a student has, that really defines the standards that a student will set for themselves. So if level X is acceptable and we only need to do the minimum, and this is what the school supports and does not push the student to a higher standard, then level X is all we can expect. I take exception to you stating that students can't handle the extra work of learning spins. From what I have seen and experienced at this school, that is absolute hogwash, a student will do whatever you teach them to do.
Just my two cents.
Cheers
CB
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Bose, I agree, they won't be put back into the syllabus and I do take your point about experience levels, however the school I fly at, teaches in Citabrias and includes stalls and fulls spins in their training as well as basic aerobatics / unusual attitude recovery. They have one of the best reputations in Australia for turning out pilots who can actually fly an aircraft within its full flight envelope
I do seem to think that a few people have their facts in a twist when responding to me. I am not against spinning at all. I am just saying that there is a time and place for it and using it to develop advanced skills post PPL is more sensible in my opinion.
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Incipient spin training would not help you in this situation, the time scale between incipient and a full spin is in seconds, thinking back on your theory "Oh what do I do now" could well not be good enough, it has to be instinctive, which can only be achieved through training, pre or post PPL.
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Sorry, I'm a little confused. I thought the original question was about the basic PPL course (in Europe 45 hrs flying, UK NPPL 32 hours). So I'm left wondering:
a. Why are we talking about IMC? Students should be being taught how to avoid this and there is a specific exercise where they are taught a 180 turn out of IMC.
b. Are you saying that people should not only experience spins, but they should also been done in (simulated) IMC?
As Bose said, I'm not against spin training, I just question the level of relevance to the basic PPL course.
a. Why are we talking about IMC? Students should be being taught how to avoid this and there is a specific exercise where they are taught a 180 turn out of IMC.
b. Are you saying that people should not only experience spins, but they should also been done in (simulated) IMC?
As Bose said, I'm not against spin training, I just question the level of relevance to the basic PPL course.