RE: Spinning on the PPL course
Did my UK PPL in '95 and the line I was given at the time was the "you don't have to do this, but we'd recommend that you do" type approach.
Although it scared me sh!tless the first few times we did it (from about 6000' IIRC, in an Aerobat), I am glad that I did, if only to reinforce the lesson that if you ever entered a spin unintentionally from circuit height you would be leaving the scene in a coffin.
If that made me over-cautious in terms of speed discipline during the critical phases of approach/departure, so be it!....the lesson did it's job.
Although it scared me sh!tless the first few times we did it (from about 6000' IIRC, in an Aerobat), I am glad that I did, if only to reinforce the lesson that if you ever entered a spin unintentionally from circuit height you would be leaving the scene in a coffin.
If that made me over-cautious in terms of speed discipline during the critical phases of approach/departure, so be it!....the lesson did it's job.
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This is a first !!............ I find myself agreeing with Bose-X
I don't see much value in it until after someone is an accomplished pilot and can actually enjoy it and do it as part of exploring the envelope of the aeroplane.
Why? Well how many Twin pilots were taught to spin a Twin? How many Boeing drivers are taught spin recovery in a Boeing? None!! You could argue that you are more likely to spin a twin, with asymetric power and all that, but other than experiencing Vmc you never go near a spin....And why should you, the idea is not to spin!
Anyway with *most* single engine low performance aeroplanes there is one fool proof recovery technique, given enough height. Throttle closed and let go of everything.....
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I did it last year and I think it should be included just due to the sheer shock of it the first time it happens. Think in a moment of panic people could forget their recovery technices, if its happened to them before the ordeal is probably going to stick in their minds, along with what to do. I too feel that it has given me a great respect for aircraft handling at slow speeds (though perhaps I can be a little too cautious).
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I did spinning on an advanced handling course with Highlands Flying School,
Or shall we take it you were in the C172.
But for future reference you need a 4 point harness in a G reg PA 38 before it is legal to intentionally spin it.
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englishal
Here again is an example of how watered down our training is becoming. Even in stall training its recovery at the incipient stage for fear of asymetric power and a subsequent spin in twins.
I use an old examiner who is also part of the old school no incipient stuff for him in twins. Its climb to 8-10000 feet and the full bloodied stuff.
I dislike disecting spinning away from any "handling training" whether that is spins, spiral dives, stalls etc.
They are so important in giving a pilot an overall confidence in his machinery, what he can do and what his aircraft is capable of because one day he may need those skills no matter how much avoidance he practices. that pilot will be better equipt to survive than the avoidance trained pilot.
Pace
Why? Well how many Twin pilots were taught to spin a Twin? How many Boeing drivers are taught spin recovery in a Boeing? None!! You could argue that you are more likely to spin a twin, with asymetric power and all that, but other than experiencing Vmc you never go near a spin....And why should you, the idea is not to spin!
I use an old examiner who is also part of the old school no incipient stuff for him in twins. Its climb to 8-10000 feet and the full bloodied stuff.
I dislike disecting spinning away from any "handling training" whether that is spins, spiral dives, stalls etc.
They are so important in giving a pilot an overall confidence in his machinery, what he can do and what his aircraft is capable of because one day he may need those skills no matter how much avoidance he practices. that pilot will be better equipt to survive than the avoidance trained pilot.
Pace
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I remember spinning a PA28-140 during my PPL in the dangerous old 1970's 
I won't disclose the registration of the aeroplane as it's still in use!
There is a lot of spinning instruction with gliders including experience of a spin and recovery at circuit height (700ft) on downwind leg
R
I won't disclose the registration of the aeroplane as it's still in use!There is a lot of spinning instruction with gliders including experience of a spin and recovery at circuit height (700ft) on downwind leg
R
Moderator
For a long time, spins have not been an element of FAA flying instruction, and a number of American pilots who have visitied Canada have asked me if I would demonstrate spins to them for their own awareness. I always have, as awareness is a vital part of pilot skill. It is irresponsible to send pilots off into the sky with no idea of what to expect when they encounter the conditions associated with a spin entry. It would appear that the Dash 8 Q400 pilots near Buffalo were not able to manage such conditions recently. Perhaps recent training would have been helpful. I have spun many aircraft during flight tests, where often a second pilot accompanying me had not spun "since he got his license years ago" or "ever". Carefully executed spins in C150/152/172 are generally something of a non-event if correctly and promptly recovered. Spin a Aft C of G loaded C 206, or 185 floatplane, and things are not so gentle, and easy to recover.
Spin practice is not only good for training what to do to correctly recover without prolonging things, it's also important just to re-aquaint the pilot with the unusual attitudes, and reduce the "deer in the headlights" reaction, so the pilot gets a recovery underway promptly. This is a reason why some basic aerobatic training is very helpful for newer pilots. Not to train them to do it, but to demonstrate that it can be done safely once you get past the disorienting sensations.
A remark was made earlier that turns to final are the big risk for spinning. I don't entirely agree, as departures are a very real risk point as well. Particularly in off airport flying, which could be floats or skis, where terrain avoidance, coupled with unusual winds, greatly increases the risk of a spin on climbout if the pilot does not maintain proper control and speed margins.
If new pilots are being set loose with no spin training, that's bad. If they are later going on to more demanding flying environments with no recent spin practice, that's much worse.
For those new pilots pondering spin training, yes, go and get some, even just for awareness, then go for periodic refreshers...
Pilot DAR
Spin practice is not only good for training what to do to correctly recover without prolonging things, it's also important just to re-aquaint the pilot with the unusual attitudes, and reduce the "deer in the headlights" reaction, so the pilot gets a recovery underway promptly. This is a reason why some basic aerobatic training is very helpful for newer pilots. Not to train them to do it, but to demonstrate that it can be done safely once you get past the disorienting sensations.
A remark was made earlier that turns to final are the big risk for spinning. I don't entirely agree, as departures are a very real risk point as well. Particularly in off airport flying, which could be floats or skis, where terrain avoidance, coupled with unusual winds, greatly increases the risk of a spin on climbout if the pilot does not maintain proper control and speed margins.
If new pilots are being set loose with no spin training, that's bad. If they are later going on to more demanding flying environments with no recent spin practice, that's much worse.
For those new pilots pondering spin training, yes, go and get some, even just for awareness, then go for periodic refreshers...
Pilot DAR
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I use an old examiner who is also part of the old school no incipient stuff for him in twins. Its climb to 8-10000 feet and the full bloodied stuff.
Even in stall training its recovery at the incipient stage for fear of asymetric power and a subsequent spin in twins.
I think it is better to practice how NOT to spin, but know how to recover if it happens. The FI's I know, on average get thrown into an unintentional spin by their students once every 500 hours, so for FI's it should be second nature...but by the time they learn how to do it they should be pretty laid back and competent pilots so spin and unusual attitude training should be required. Sure once someone has progressed and got some hours under their belt, go out and do aerobatics and include all sorts of unusual attitudes and stalls....for fun in a proper aeroplane designed for aero's (1970's C152's don't inspire confidence!).....
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I'm sure they are out there but as far as I'm aware there aren't any twins approved for spinning! I did meet an instructor once who had a student do a Vmc demo gone wrong and put them into a spin - took over 6000' of recovery, they were lucky!
Sorry i was not clear it was full blooded stalls in twins not spins while now the tendancy is towards incipient and avoidance in everything. But without naming names i too know of some old dogs who spin twins accidently of course
and as for barrel rolls?
Soon we will have incipient takeoffs and landings at this rate
It had gone out of the syllabus by 1984 when I started instructing, but as we flew Aerobats and a Pup, I always demonstrated a full spin if the student wished to try it.
I seem to recall some trial lessons involving the odd flick roll, but I couldn't possibly comment further..........
I seem to recall some trial lessons involving the odd flick roll, but I couldn't possibly comment further..........
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spinning gliders on downwind leg
rauxaman
Re 'gliders including experience of a spin and recovery at circuit height (700ft) on downwind leg'
I've had that in a gliding check flight in the last ten years or so - I had no problem recovering from it but it struck me that the examiner was a fool to do this with such a limited margin for error. People do sometimes freeze in spin recovery - seems a silly way to die.
Or are glider pilots specially talented and fearless?
Re 'gliders including experience of a spin and recovery at circuit height (700ft) on downwind leg'
I've had that in a gliding check flight in the last ten years or so - I had no problem recovering from it but it struck me that the examiner was a fool to do this with such a limited margin for error. People do sometimes freeze in spin recovery - seems a silly way to die.
Or are glider pilots specially talented and fearless?
[QUOTE]Here again is an example of how watered down our training is becoming. Even in stall training its recovery at the incipient stage for fear of asymetric power and a subsequent spin in twins.
I use an old examiner who is also part of the old school no incipient stuff for him in twins. Its climb to 8-10000 feet and the full bloodied stuff.
I dislike disecting spinning away from any "handling training" whether that is spins, spiral dives, stalls etc.
They are so important in giving a pilot an overall confidence in his machinery, what he can do and what his aircraft is capable of because one day he may need those skills no matter how much avoidance he practices. that pilot will be better equipt to survive than the avoidance trained pilot.
[/QUOTE]
Pace---I'm in total agreement
we baking a bunch of soft gingerbread cookies instead of pilots---like the one from m the film 'Shrek' that says 'Ooh No' for everything
PA
I use an old examiner who is also part of the old school no incipient stuff for him in twins. Its climb to 8-10000 feet and the full bloodied stuff.
I dislike disecting spinning away from any "handling training" whether that is spins, spiral dives, stalls etc.
They are so important in giving a pilot an overall confidence in his machinery, what he can do and what his aircraft is capable of because one day he may need those skills no matter how much avoidance he practices. that pilot will be better equipt to survive than the avoidance trained pilot.
[/QUOTE]
Pace---I'm in total agreement
we baking a bunch of soft gingerbread cookies instead of pilots---like the one from m the film 'Shrek' that says 'Ooh No' for everything
PA
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An FI friend of mine once said that spinning is more of a psychological exercise than a technical one, and that he could predict the flying aptitude of a student by his/her attitude to spins - for the naturally talented ones, spinning is a pleasure (possibly addictive ).
).
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An FI friend of mine once said that spinning is more of a psychological exercise than a technical one, and that he could predict the flying aptitude of a student by his/her attitude to spins - for the naturally talented ones, spinning is a pleasure (possibly addictive ).
).Incipient spin training is not enough, especially if not practised post PPL, if, at a later date, will you remember your training? Because it don't take long for an incipient spin to develop into a full spin, it won't be any good saying to yourself "Oh, what was it I was taught" it has to be an immediate reaction.
I recommend full spin training and regular practice to keep it sharp in your mind.
Also practice PFL's and EFATO's, an hour with an FI every now and then is, in my opinion, a good idea.
Spinning was removed from the PPL syllabus because more people were getting killed practicing it than were being saved by knowing how to recover. Also, whereas there is a standard stall recovery, there is no stanard spin recovery as there are differences in the recoveries of most aircraft. Some subtle, some large. The recovery technique on one may not work for another - or may even prevent recovery.
Spinning can give confidence in handling and is essential if a pilot is to operate in a regieme where it is more likely, such as military flying or aerobatics. But in a PPL environment in spin resistant aircraft, it's not essential.
Spinning can give confidence in handling and is essential if a pilot is to operate in a regieme where it is more likely, such as military flying or aerobatics. But in a PPL environment in spin resistant aircraft, it's not essential.
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Lightning6, agree absolutely. I was lucky to get my ab initio training in a Yak-52, quite eager to spin and easy to recover (even from a flat spin), so I could do it to my heart's delight 
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Spinning was removed from the PPL syllabus because more people were getting killed practicing it than were being saved by knowing how to recover. Also, whereas there is a standard stall recovery, there is no stanard spin recovery as there are differences in the recoveries of most aircraft. Some subtle, some large. The recovery technique on one may not work for another - or may even prevent recovery.
Spinning can give confidence in handling and is essential if a pilot is to operate in a regieme where it is more likely, such as military flying or aerobatics. But in a PPL environment in spin resistant aircraft, it's not essential.
Spinning can give confidence in handling and is essential if a pilot is to operate in a regieme where it is more likely, such as military flying or aerobatics. But in a PPL environment in spin resistant aircraft, it's not essential.
It will never be re-introduced into the syllabus, so I recommend spin recovery training post PPL.
I take your point about the difference in recovery from different types, but that can be covered in type conversion.
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there is no stanard spin recovery as there are differences in the recoveries of most aircraft. Some subtle, some large. The recovery technique on one may not work for another - or may even prevent recovery.
It shall not be possible to obtain uncontrollable spins by means of any possible use of the controls.
And, more recently (in part):
It must be impossible to obtain unrecoverable spins with any use of the flight or engine power controls either at the entry into or during the spin
So, I am unwilling to believe that new pilots cannot be safely taught the basics of spin recognition and recovery.
If they cannot, why not? We were....
Pilot DAR
Well, it MIGHT have something to do with airplanes being certified only in the Normal as opposed to the Utility category. (Intentional Spins being a big no-no in the former). Anyway, most primary trainers in common use won't do much more than a spiral dive anyway. A Cherokee, a 172 or a 150 will essentially auto recover if you pull the power and make some rudimentary efforts to get the nose up. There are exceptions, as I'm sure we'll soon hear.
(ok, I'll start: An attempted aileron roll in a Beechcraft Sport 180 at 11000 feet and about 90kias with a really low time student pilot who'd just seen Top Gun for the first time WILL result in a stall/spin requiring rudder to stop the rotation and fairly quick action to avoid VNE)
Fortunately, we were required to do spins as an earlier part of our 141 syllabus, thus, I just felt stupid rather than dead. Since that time, I've enjoyed avoiding unintentional spins, recovering from intentional ones (in appropriate aircraft) and thwarting attempts by evil simulator instructors to kill me during recurrent training for various twins.
Why would anyone NOT want to know how to get out of a spin?
(ok, I'll start: An attempted aileron roll in a Beechcraft Sport 180 at 11000 feet and about 90kias with a really low time student pilot who'd just seen Top Gun for the first time WILL result in a stall/spin requiring rudder to stop the rotation and fairly quick action to avoid VNE)
Fortunately, we were required to do spins as an earlier part of our 141 syllabus, thus, I just felt stupid rather than dead. Since that time, I've enjoyed avoiding unintentional spins, recovering from intentional ones (in appropriate aircraft) and thwarting attempts by evil simulator instructors to kill me during recurrent training for various twins.
Why would anyone NOT want to know how to get out of a spin?