RE: Spinning on the PPL course

[BackPacker]

(I always seem to come out of stall turns upside down)

Slightly off topic, but me too, until I learned the proper lookout technique for a stall turn. You then instinctively correct the pitch and exit with a 90 degree downline.

The trick is to look over your (left) wing on the way up to see if you obtained 90 degrees and once you yaw the aircraft (left again) at the top of the stall turn, follow that point on the horizon with your gaze, and instinctively correct, until the nose is pointing to that same point. Then follow the nose down, keeping the stick position the same, or slightly pitch back.

[Mike Cross]

Ah if I had a quid for every time my body has not done what my brain knows it ought to do!

[BEagle]

The spin characteristics of every type are different, and they are greatly affected by the C of G position so crew weight and fuel loading make a big difference.

Quite so, Mike.

In the RAF Bulldog, it was mandatory to have less than a 3 gallon imbalance between tanks before intentional spinning.

One fine Summer's day, on the second of 2 trips following an 'engine running change' of students, up we went to go spinning. All normal, fuel balance OK - and a spin to the right.

Student's recovery looked absolutely fine, but the spin continued. So I took control, re-applied full pro-spin, then took spin recovery action. Eventually, after some delay, it recovered.

Initial suspicion was that the student hadn't maintained full pro-spin during the spin. But I didn't really accept that, as he was a pretty competent chap.

Not long after, one of the fuel gauges in that same aeroplane stuck at 'FULL' throughout a flight. I put the aircraft u/s (much to the annoyance of the CFI, but that's another story); when the sender unit was changed it was found to be totally knackered and miles out of limits. So my guess is that, through diligently keeping within the 3 gall balance limit as indicated, we were probably well outside the limit. I went back to the student's record and made it quite clear that the delayed spin recovery was 99% certain to have been due to technical failure and that no criticism should be attached to his performance.

That was in a supposedly well-maintained service aeroplane. Consider the tired old heaps maintained at minimum cost by many RFs and ask yourselves whether they should really be spun?

Nowadays I'm firmly in the camp of teaching AVOIDANCE unless it's deliberate spinning in an aerobatic aeroplane.

[ShyTorque]

Before you pass your car driving test you should never skid your car, only be told what can cause one. Leave skidding practice and recovery well alone until you can afford a more sporty and expensive car.

If in the meantime there's some ice on the road, or some spilt diesel fuel and you can't recover from it, tough.

Doesn't seem correct to me.

[S-Works]

If in the meantime there's some ice on the road, or some spilt diesel fuel and you can't recover from it, tough.

Doesn't seem correct to me.

You know I have been driving for more than 20 years and never spun of the road or ended up in one of these skids from ice or spilt fuel, neither has my wife. I wonder if perhaps that is because I operate the car inside the 'normal' driving envelope rather than trying to pretend I am Damon Hill?

The same can be said for flying, I have managed a bit over three thousand hours and have yet to accidentally end up in a spin or even a spiral dive. In fact I have never accidentally diverged from normal flight.

[ShyTorque]

Aha! So perhaps neither Bose-X or I can be considered "Joe Average". Horses for courses, I guess.

On the other hand, I learned to drive off-road, on mud, 40 years ago on cross-ply tyres, when skidding was considered something quite ordinary. One of my cars still gets used off-road, and still uses cross-ply tyres.

I was taught spin recoveries in my first week of aviation in 1971, aged 15, just before I was sent solo in a glider. The powered syllabus I later taught included spinning, seen again as something quite routine. We were required to practice high rotational spin recoveries every month.

I guess in Bose's book that makes me a worse pilot and driver than himself.

I maintain my view that today's average PPL sees spinning as something to be feared, but with little understanding of it (and very little chance of successful recovery if one was accidentally entered).

[421dog]

So there you go, BFeagle, had you not known how to stop a real, live spin, rather than the watered-down version you were teaching (really just a spiral dive held actively into a stall) then you'd be dead now and I'd be deprived of the pleasure of flaming you.

[Lightning6]

What on earth is the problem with spin recovery training? It should be compulsory in my opinion.
There are people on here that think getting into a spin can only occur on turning final, WRONG, think about flying, inadvertently, in IMC conditions and getting disorientated, it's no good thinking 'What was I trained to do for incipient spins' Too late, it don't take long to turn in to a full spin from an incipient spin. GET TRAINED.

[Lightning6]

Is there anyone on here that has regretted spin recovery training? I guess there are more that have gained from the experience.

[BEagle]

Too late, it don't take long to turn in to a full spin from an incipient spin.

Exactly the reason why the CAA shouldn't be requiring FI revalidations to include the demonstration of incipient spins in aeroplanes with 'intentional spinning is prohibited' in their POH.

421dog, you clearly have no idea of RAF Bulldog spinning instruction. The reason why we did so much was that the aircraft was flown to its limits and students had to be adequately competent at both spinning and recoveries from the vertical before being cleared to fly aerobatics solo. Whereas the average PPL holder has neither need nor wish to get anywhere close to any such limits and needs more to be taught how to recognise and recover from getting anywhere close to an incipient spin.

Lightning6, 'spin recovery' training in the Cessna 150 and PA28 Cherokee 140 was a nonsense. The C150 was better, but both required what was basically a low speed flick entry to depart from controlled flight. The most difficult part in the PA28 was recovering without overspeeding the engine and/or overstressing. Totally pointless - who is ever going to pull the control column fully aft and apply full rudder other than deliberately?

However, mishandle a T67A at the stall (particularly a dynamic stall) and it would easily enter an incipient spin.... Lousy aeroplane for most aerobatics, but very good indeed for stall / spin training.

[vihai]

Originally Posted by 421dog

really just a spiral dive held actively into a stall

Stall and spiral dive are not compatibile.

If you are stalled and rotating you are spinning, and viceversa.

[421dog]

Please.

As has been hashed out here ad-nauseum, most of the planes people "spin" will recover spontaneously if you stop the control input which was required to get the plane into the condition in the first place (that is, let go of the yoke, relax on the rudder and pull the power)

As my esteemed colleague BEagle pointed out in his post though, a "real spin" is a condition which will continue in a metastable fashion unless active control inputs are made to recover. This recovery is not really intuitive, and is the reason why (IMHO) it's absolutely necessary that this training be included as part of basic pilot training. Several posters in this thread(myself included) have related stories about how they would be dead now (instead of just irritating to the rest of you who know obviously know everything) had we not been taught to recover from a fully developed spin.

[englishal]

The list below is just 3 pages of 17 of Stall / Spin accidents from the AOPA US website, derived from the NTSB since 1992. They all have two things in common:

1) They are all fatal
2) They all happened within 1000' of the ground*

* EXCEPT the instructional spin training fatalities.....

They are more or less all along the lines of:

The airplane's recorded airspeed indicated that the airplane slowed on final approach and subsequently encountered a recorded stall/spin condition during go-around from runway 12

Not sure how any spin training would have helped in any of these cases. I haven't read every one but the samples I have indicate the above.

AOPA Online - Accident Analysis Search Results


SEA08LA178 08/14/2008 N18EX Kolb MK III Richland WA Fatal Personal
DFW08LA161 06/07/2008 N3266V Cessna 150 Forrest City AR Fatal Personal
DEN08LA098 06/02/2008 N40120 Skystar KITFOX La Porte TX Fatal Personal
SEA08LA145 05/30/2008 N109DC Lancair LEGACY FG Murrieta CA Fatal Personal
SEA08LA138 05/25/2008 N49KK Kolb MK III Jordan Valley OR Fatal Personal
MIA08FA091 04/18/2008 N14037 Lake LA-4-250 Skaneateles NY Fatal Instructional
DEN08GA076 04/15/2008 N602AA Air Tractor AT-602 Fort Carson CO Fatal Public Use
MIA08FA081 03/20/2008 N615WM Cirrus Design SR-22 Waxhaw NC Fatal Personal
LAX08LA078 03/18/2008 N742MJ Vans RV-7A Winslow AZ Fatal Personal
NYC08FA133 03/13/2008 N284SP Cessna 172 Indiantown FL Fatal Aerial Observation
ANC08FA037 02/27/2008 N8458D Cessna 172 Tyonek AK Fatal Personal
MIA08FA038 01/12/2008 N7100Q Cessna 172 Clearwater FL Fatal Personal
CHI08FA061 01/12/2008 N2637Y Cessna 335/340 Port Clinton OH Fatal Personal
MIA08FA026 12/07/2007 N2643C Cessna 182RG Woodland AL Fatal Instructional
DFW08FA040 11/28/2007 N6555D Cessna 172 Marlow OK Fatal Personal
CHI08LA041 11/27/2007 N2159M Quad City Acft CHALLENGER Apple River IL Fatal Personal
CHI08FA039 11/25/2007 N482SR Cirrus Design SR-22 Faribault MN Fatal Personal
DFW08FA036 11/23/2007 N8301M Cessna 150 Mesquite TX Fatal Personal
SEA08FA036 11/22/2007 N3459T Cessna 177 Auburn CA Fatal Personal
CHI08FA033 11/03/2007 N8353L Cessna 172 Gladwin MI Fatal Personal
DEN07FA165 09/24/2007 N732XE Cessna 210 Moriarty NM Fatal Instructional
ATL07LA129 09/22/2007 N43046 Kolb TWINSTAR Sweetwater TN Fatal Personal
CHI07LA288 09/02/2007 N1502V Cessna 172 Union Star MO Fatal Personal
NYC07LA210 09/02/2007 N60867 Cessna 150 Hazleton PA Fatal Personal
SEA07FA247 08/31/2007 N2520P Columbia 350/400 Kernville CA Fatal Personal
DEN07LA145 08/25/2007 N7068U Undetermined UNKNOWN Taos NM Fatal Personal
CHI07LA272 08/16/2007 N39YP Titan TORNADO Henning MN Fatal Personal
NYC07FA193 08/16/2007 N738JE Cessna 172 Rochester NY Fatal Personal
DFW07LA183 08/15/2007 N557SX Sonex, Ltd SONEX Bonham TX Fatal Personal
DEN07FA136 08/15/2007 N808GS Moravan ZLIN Z-50 Mosquero NM Fatal Personal
ANC07FA082 08/13/2007 N5660F Maule M-4/5/6/7 Arctic Village AK Fatal Personal
SEA07FA218 07/28/2007 N9302M Mooney MK 20 Tonasket WA Fatal Personal
CHI07LA238 07/28/2007 N914JS Arnet Pereyra AVENTURA Lakewood WI Fatal Personal
NYC07FA176 07/26/2007 N1299Y Cessna 150 Campbellton FL Fatal Personal
DEN07LA108 06/25/2007 N94KA Vans RV-6A Greeley CO Fatal Personal
NYC07LA147 06/22/2007 N139SG Amer Champion 7ECA/GCAA/GCBC Sanford FL Fatal Banner Towing
NYC07FA130 06/04/2007 N4126H Mooney MK 20 Canton MA Fatal Personal
SEA07GA142 06/01/2007 N9602R Aviat/Christen A-1 Loa UT Fatal Public Use - Federal
DFW07LA124 05/30/2007 N39AJ Vans RV-6A Boerne TX Fatal Personal
CHI07LA157 05/27/2007 N743RP Rans Company S-6 Newark IL Fatal Personal
NYC07FA126 05/26/2007 N2537A Columbia 350/400 Burnsville NC Fatal Personal
LAX07LA167 05/12/2007 N6641K Rans Company S-12 Pinetop AZ Fatal Personal
LAX07LA163 05/12/2007 N7739Z Piper PA 25 Delta UT Fatal Aerial Application
LAX07LA156 05/10/2007 N220GT Rans Company S-6 Nyssa OR Fatal Personal
MIA07LA091 05/05/2007 NONE Sorrell SNS-2 Stewartstown PA Fatal Personal
SEA07GA112 04/25/2007 N6277E Cessna 182 Rachal TX Fatal Public Use - Federal
NYC07FA100 04/22/2007 N5651Y Piper PA 23 Windham CT Fatal Personal
NYC07FA096 04/18/2007 N868ST Beech BE 95 Saranac Lake NY Fatal Personal
MIA07LA077 04/16/2007 N456TS Express EXPRESS Lakeland FL Fatal Personal
CHI07LA098 04/09/2007 N351DW Lancair 200/235 Scottsbluff NE Fatal Personal
MIA07FA056 03/04/2007 N100FG Beech BE 55/56 Port Orange FL Fatal Personal
LAX07MA069 01/12/2007 N77215 Cessna 500/525 Van Nuys CA Fatal Positioning
LAX07LA067 12/31/2006 N50814 Cessna 150 San Diego CA Fatal Banner Towing
CHI07FA048 12/27/2006 N9596M Mooney MK 20 Mt. Gilead OH Fatal Instructional
ATL07FA029 12/22/2006 N808RA Cessna 335/340 Charleston SC Fatal Personal
DFW07FA036 12/10/2006 N69677 Cessna 310/U3A Waco TX Fatal Business
ATL07LA025 12/10/2006 N949S Rans Company S-6 Taylorsville NC Fatal Personal
DFW07LA032 12/02/2006 N216RV Vans RV-7A Norman OK Fatal Personal
DFW07LA026 11/23/2006 N115SE Aero Designs PULSAR Alvarado TX Fatal Personal
LAX07LA032 11/13/2006 N2031S Kolb MK III Paulden AZ Fatal Personal
DEN07LA020 11/06/2006 N1541T Air Tractor AT-501/2 Deming NM Fatal Aerial Application
NYC07LA011 10/22/2006 N91BK Bakeng Aircraft DUCE South Boston VA Fatal Personal
NYC07LA008 10/15/2006 N640F Pazmany PL-2/4A Fredricksburg VA Fatal Personal
DEN07FA003 10/04/2006 N300BB Extra-Flugzeug. EA-300 Tucumcari NM Fatal Air Race/Show
NYC06LA227 09/20/2006 NONE Taylorcraft TCRAFT 15A Middlebury VT Fatal Personal
MIA06LA135 09/03/2006 N71927 Luscombe 8A Ocala FL Fatal Personal
DFW06FA205 09/02/2006 N181Y Beech BE 55/56 Mcgregor TX Fatal Personal
CHI06FA245 08/28/2006 N91MB Cirrus Design SR-22 Indianapolis IN Fatal Personal
SEA06LA169 08/27/2006 N6298 Curtiss Wright 4000 Elmira OR Fatal Personal
LAX06LA264 08/17/2006 N577JS Breezy Aircraft BREEZY Ramona CA Fatal Personal
DFW06LA195 08/04/2006 N86188 Cessna 188 Sumrall MS Fatal Aerial Application
ATL06LA115 08/03/2006 N93TR Mcwhorter SKYSTAR VIXEN Peachtree City GA Fatal Personal
NYC06LA187 07/30/2006 N4293S North American T-6 Ringoes NJ Fatal Personal
DEN06FA107 07/30/2006 N5232X Amer Champion 8KCAB Winter Park CO Fatal Personal
CHI06FA196 07/23/2006 N229WC Europa Aircraft EUROPA XS Oshkosh WI Fatal Personal

[421dog]

I would posit that the way spin training would have avoided MOST of the accidents is by teaching pilots what happens when you:

1) Start a tight turn at a low airspeed

2) Add a bit of rudder to speed up the turn

3) Notice that you are banking a bit more than you'd like to and add some opposite aileron to "flatten the turn"

4) Notice that the nose seems to be falling and add elevator.

[S-Works]

would posit that the way spin training would have avoided MOST of the accidents is by teaching pilots what happens when you:

1) Start a tight turn at a low airspeed

2) Add a bit of rudder to speed up the turn

3) Notice that you are banking a bit more than you'd like to and add some opposite aileron to "flatten the turn"

4) Notice that the nose seems to be falling and add elevator.

All of which are taught in spin avoidance..........

[Pilot DAR]

Quote:
would posit that the way spin training would have avoided MOST of the accidents is by teaching pilots what happens when you:

1) Start a tight turn at a low airspeed

2) Add a bit of rudder to speed up the turn

3) Notice that you are banking a bit more than you'd like to and add some opposite aileron to "flatten the turn"

4) Notice that the nose seems to be falling and add elevator.
All of which are taught in spin avoidance..........

There's a very important difference between "are taught in spin avaoidance" and "teaching pilots what happens when you [spin]".

I do not at all agree that teaching avoidance of a manuever, is as effective as demonstrating the manuever to be avoided, when such a demonstartion can be safely accomplished.

Pilot DAR

[421dog]

Gee, Bose-x, d'ya think that maybe those things "all of which are taught..." might have something in common? MAYBE, it would be important for a pilot to understand WHY doing all of that stuff TOGETHER is likely to get him killed. Furthermore, it helps to drive home the point that the condition of flight in question can be achieved in a number of ways, but that the recovery procedure is generally the same. (And NOT as has been suggested earlier, intuitive)

[Mike Cross]

As my esteemed colleague BEagle pointed out in his post though, a "real spin" is a condition which will continue in a metastable fashion unless active control inputs are made to recover. This recovery is not really intuitive, and is the reason why (IMHO) it's absolutely necessary that this training be included as part of basic pilot training. Several posters in this thread(myself included) have related stories about how they would be dead now (instead of just irritating to the rest of you who know obviously know everything) had we not been taught to recover from a fully developed spin.

I'd take issue with you a bit there. In the phrase "Basic Pilot Training" the important word is the first one. It is no more "absolutely necessary" that a student is taught in basic training how to recover from a fully developed spin than it is for him to be taught to recover from an inverted high speed dive by rolling rather than pulling through. What is important is for him to recognise the incipient stages and instinctively recover. Fully developed spins don't need to be part of basic training any more than drifting a car round a corner needs to be part of learning to pass the driving test.

I'd exempt glider pilots from that because they are as a matter of course flying at far more extreme attitudes than a spamcan driver.

Spin training is IMHO best left until after basic training has been completed. Having done it in a Tomahawk and been too scared to look over my shoulder for the source of the terrible creaking noises I'd prefer it to be done in a more robust aircraft, with parachutes.

[Pace]

Mike

I would go with a lot of what you are saying.

I wonder sometimes whether this discussion is not more to do with a trend in training towards AVOIDANCE rather than exploring an aircraft in extreme attitudes?

Stalls too are recovered at the incipient stage and you could go the same route with dives, spiral dives avoiding steep turns etc.

You mention car driving.

Personally I would add skid pan training to learning to drive. There is a big difference between driving a car and handling a car and the same goes with aircraft.
There is flying an aircraft and handling an aircraft. We are teaching pilots to fly aircraft not to handle them.

The car is a good example. The student driver is taught to drive a car and all is well until one day the car goes too quickly into a corner or touches a slippery patch and the driver is not equipt to deal with the understeer oversteer or slide and ends up in the wall.

I would recommend a new PPL investing in a couple of hours aerobatic training post PPL so he can explore aircraft handling. Not only is it fun but it will pick up his flying confidence no end.

Pace

[BackPacker]

There's another thing which I've missed in the discussion. If you want spins in the basic syllabus, you have to have the infrastructure, both physically and rules-wise, for it as well. That means that schools need to have aircraft that are suitable for spinning, instructors need to be able to teach them, but most importantly you need to teach the students spins to a certain standard, so that they can practice them on their own, and demonstrate them on the skills test. Just like PFLs, stalls and steep turns.

Students going off to practice spins on their own, on one of their flights after first solo? I don't think so.

What I do like is the suggestion that an instructor takes a student out in an aerobatics-capable plane, somewhere during his/her PPL lessons, and demonstrates spin entry and recovery. Not with the aim of making the student a fully trained aerobatics pilot, but just to reinforce the point why spin avoidance is so crucial.

The problem is, as the PPL syllabus goes, this is totally unenforceable. Because at the end of such a sortie there's nothing that the student can demonstrate on his skills test. It would be no more than a logbook entry.