High Viz Jackets - Mandatory at GA Airfields?
I would be very interested in seeing the risk assessments carried out (or should have been carried out) at licensed aerodrome that do not make high vis clothing mandatory airside.
Maybe the Aerodrome Standards Department, CAA, appreciate that everyone is not complying with the Risk Assessment game rules, and were instrumental in having the ANO changed, due to be published this year, that place additional legal responsibilities on licensed aerodrome operators to spell out in their Aerodrome Manual's how their Safety Management System operates.
Maybe the Aerodrome Standards Department, CAA, appreciate that everyone is not complying with the Risk Assessment game rules, and were instrumental in having the ANO changed, due to be published this year, that place additional legal responsibilities on licensed aerodrome operators to spell out in their Aerodrome Manual's how their Safety Management System operates.
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I would have thought they would be reasonably sensible. After all the incidents of 'struck by aircraft' is vanishingly small compared to struck by ground vehicles. If the airport has trained drivers and few airside vehicle operations (particularly if those ops are not under aircraft - that is not tugs ladders, baggage carts, cargo equipment) then the risk assessment should show very low probability and moderate risk. As such it would be very surprising (and facinating to see the logic) if a real risk assessment concluded that HiViz is necessary or even appropriate at most GA fields.
Last edited by mm_flynn; 6th Mar 2009 at 08:25. Reason: clarify position
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Nanny state vs common sense
Why on earth are we starting to think that the hi vis is to be mandated at a GA airfields? Some of us have the common sense to us the hi vis at night or in conditions of poor visability.
For gods sake use you brains and stop having your lives dictated by the utterly stupid "elf & safety" numptys.
Remember the only reason for "elf & safety" is to keep these people out of the jobless statistics.
For gods sake use you brains and stop having your lives dictated by the utterly stupid "elf & safety" numptys.
Remember the only reason for "elf & safety" is to keep these people out of the jobless statistics.
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A & C says:-
"For gods sake use you brains and stop having your lives dictated by the utterly stupid "elf & safety" numptys."
All very well said and done, but what happens when these people have rather sternly told you to clear off their airfield and take you fecking aeroplane with you??
No doubt you expect all the other airfield users will support me and go on 'strike' eh? and stop using that facility . Hmmm!
Methinks not. I'll be an airfield orphan 
Sooo.. despite my own feelings on the issue (which aren't dissimilar to yours and others
) I continue to reluctantly wear the blasted thing whilst standing on their airfield. Life's simpler that way.
"For gods sake use you brains and stop having your lives dictated by the utterly stupid "elf & safety" numptys."
All very well said and done, but what happens when these people have rather sternly told you to clear off their airfield and take you fecking aeroplane with you??
No doubt you expect all the other airfield users will support me and go on 'strike' eh? and stop using that facility . Hmmm!
Methinks not. I'll be an airfield orphan Sooo.. despite my own feelings on the issue (which aren't dissimilar to yours and others
) I continue to reluctantly wear the blasted thing whilst standing on their airfield. Life's simpler that way.
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Columnist AA Gill had a surprising take on Health and Safety, following a bellittling attack on the work of those employed to enforce existing legislation by a Channel 4 documentry and many others, including internet forums, (including the "it will never happen to me @cos I am a pilot brigade):
He wrote:
Nuff said really.
He wrote:
I’ve never really got the furious pleasure gleaned from bullying people who do the tedious job of making sure we’re not killed, crippled or struck by laziness, greed, stupidity and ignorance.
You can roll your eyes at a man who wants to tell you how
to wipe a floor or ban the donkey derby, but at the same time you must
remember the hundreds of builders dying of asbestos-induced cancer inhaled before council busybodies made it their business, or the miners with black lung caught when they were employed by you and me.
We trust that our tea is unadulterated, our electrics are earthed, the boiler has a flue and the lift was checked last week. All that is down
to health and safety.
If you are in the business of making documentaries or ill informed comment on web sites about the lives of ordinary people, then there are far more deserving candidates for the internet's and media's mighty ire and odium than these boring but valiant public servants who are so easily and thoughtlessly teased.”
You can roll your eyes at a man who wants to tell you how
to wipe a floor or ban the donkey derby, but at the same time you must
remember the hundreds of builders dying of asbestos-induced cancer inhaled before council busybodies made it their business, or the miners with black lung caught when they were employed by you and me.
We trust that our tea is unadulterated, our electrics are earthed, the boiler has a flue and the lift was checked last week. All that is down
to health and safety.
If you are in the business of making documentaries or ill informed comment on web sites about the lives of ordinary people, then there are far more deserving candidates for the internet's and media's mighty ire and odium than these boring but valiant public servants who are so easily and thoughtlessly teased.”
Last edited by goatface; 6th Mar 2009 at 19:59.
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Goatface, exactly my thoughts, thanks for saving me the effort!
We are all aware that H&S issues can sometimes be taken a bit far, indeed hi viz jackets may well be an example. However it does not warrant the level of criticism, directed at ordinary folks going about their business.
When people refer to H&S staff as, 'utterly stupid elf & safety numptys,' in a post with common sense in the title, it seems to me that it is these very people that need the H&S numptys to save them from their own brand of common sense!
We are all aware that H&S issues can sometimes be taken a bit far, indeed hi viz jackets may well be an example. However it does not warrant the level of criticism, directed at ordinary folks going about their business.
When people refer to H&S staff as, 'utterly stupid elf & safety numptys,' in a post with common sense in the title, it seems to me that it is these very people that need the H&S numptys to save them from their own brand of common sense!
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BabyBear
For thirty years I have been in the aviation business without an accident or any injury more drastic that stabing myself with a bit of lockin wire.
The one distracting thing that has inflated its self over the years is "elf & safety" it has produced large amounts of paperwork that distract from doing the job and stop people thinking about the dangers that they might be putting them selfs into ( I can assure you that a large aircraft can find more ways to hurt you than the "elf & safety could dream of untill after the event ) The result is we are producing people that cant see danger because the they think that someone will have removed all the risk from the workplace.
I have yet to meet an "elf & safety " officer that I would trust to run a tap (luke walm of course) and just like all petty officials they cant resist using the full range of the powers that they have to make themselfs seem important.
As I said in my last post saftey equipment should be used if the situation requires it and not by blanket dictate, during the recent snow on the airfield that I was working on we ditched the hi vis for dark clothing, that is called common sense but I doubt if the "elf & safety" types could see it that way from the windows of walm office.
The one distracting thing that has inflated its self over the years is "elf & safety" it has produced large amounts of paperwork that distract from doing the job and stop people thinking about the dangers that they might be putting them selfs into ( I can assure you that a large aircraft can find more ways to hurt you than the "elf & safety could dream of untill after the event ) The result is we are producing people that cant see danger because the they think that someone will have removed all the risk from the workplace.
I have yet to meet an "elf & safety " officer that I would trust to run a tap (luke walm of course) and just like all petty officials they cant resist using the full range of the powers that they have to make themselfs seem important.
As I said in my last post saftey equipment should be used if the situation requires it and not by blanket dictate, during the recent snow on the airfield that I was working on we ditched the hi vis for dark clothing, that is called common sense but I doubt if the "elf & safety" types could see it that way from the windows of walm office.
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Ni said
I continue to reluctantly wear the blasted thing whilst standing on their airfield. Life's simpler that way.
I wonder what our dear departed friend would have said hearing you say that, you let the side down. I was down at the airport yesterday and wanted to take a quick look at the plane and didn't have that thing with me. Dived down between the hangar doors and rear of all the aircraft and if that white van had appeared it would have got it with both barrels I can tell you, not a sole in site.
I continue to reluctantly wear the blasted thing whilst standing on their airfield. Life's simpler that way.
I wonder what our dear departed friend would have said hearing you say that, you let the side down. I was down at the airport yesterday and wanted to take a quick look at the plane and didn't have that thing with me. Dived down between the hangar doors and rear of all the aircraft and if that white van had appeared it would have got it with both barrels I can tell you, not a sole in site.
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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We know you would...because, let's face it, we know that reviewing risk assessments provides the ultimate sense of achievement in your life.
Now then - truth time. Do you now hold, or have you at any time held, any form of flight crew licence?...and if so, what do you fly, and from where?
I'm genuinely interested to know. I can see if you were a career ATPL who has spent 20 years largely avoiding being run down by catering trucks whilst trying to do a walk-round at hundreds of busy commercial airports, you would be a fervent advocate of a bit of dayglo fabric, because, frankly, so would I...in that context.
But I'm not a 20-year career ATPL with bad experiences of catering trucks, and - I have an edible hat on standby - neither are you. I'm a PPL flying from an average flying club.
In the context of the average UK flying club, mandatory carriage and wearing of these (highly flammable) bits of kit form a travesty of a genuine safety culture - it is of little surprise then, then those of us who actually fly find the didactic - bordering on the fetishistic - preaching on the subject of those who don't rather trying, to say the least.
Now then - truth time. Do you now hold, or have you at any time held, any form of flight crew licence?...and if so, what do you fly, and from where?
I'm genuinely interested to know. I can see if you were a career ATPL who has spent 20 years largely avoiding being run down by catering trucks whilst trying to do a walk-round at hundreds of busy commercial airports, you would be a fervent advocate of a bit of dayglo fabric, because, frankly, so would I...in that context.
But I'm not a 20-year career ATPL with bad experiences of catering trucks, and - I have an edible hat on standby - neither are you. I'm a PPL flying from an average flying club.
In the context of the average UK flying club, mandatory carriage and wearing of these (highly flammable) bits of kit form a travesty of a genuine safety culture - it is of little surprise then, then those of us who actually fly find the didactic - bordering on the fetishistic - preaching on the subject of those who don't rather trying, to say the least.
Last edited by eharding; 6th Mar 2009 at 22:42.
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A and C
The point being made in the article is that without the H&S we would not enjoy many of the safety standards we currently have, take for granted and that afford you a relatively safe working environment that has enabled you 30 plus years accident free. Do you really believe your working environment would be as safe without the H&S considerations and legislation? It is H&S that has enabled you to achieve such a great record.
Yes red tape gets in the way in modern society, nothing is perfect and it is not limited to H&S, no one disputes it. Resorting to insulting all H&S employees says much more about you than it does them.
Yes red tape gets in the way in modern society, nothing is perfect and it is not limited to H&S, no one disputes it. Resorting to insulting all H&S employees says much more about you than it does them.
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Babybear
As far as I can see the Real safety standards have not been helped one iota by the "elf & safety" in all the time that I have been in aviation, before the HSE we had the Factorys inspector. These guys normaly had a practical view to things and did not flood us with stupid rules that do little good for anyone.
As for insulting H & S employees it is not my intention, I just call it as I see it after all they have done exactly nothing to improve my working enviroment, and at the same time slowed the job down with shed loads of stupid and pointless paperwork.
The bottom line is that H & S is an industry that is out of control and spending most of it's time inventing things to give it,s self something to do. Perhaps I have just been unlucky but all the "elf & safety" have done for me is make it harder to teach the people new to the industry to look out for danger and think about the results of actions that they might take by bringing a "safety first" attitude into disrepute.
As for insulting H & S employees it is not my intention, I just call it as I see it after all they have done exactly nothing to improve my working enviroment, and at the same time slowed the job down with shed loads of stupid and pointless paperwork.
The bottom line is that H & S is an industry that is out of control and spending most of it's time inventing things to give it,s self something to do. Perhaps I have just been unlucky but all the "elf & safety" have done for me is make it harder to teach the people new to the industry to look out for danger and think about the results of actions that they might take by bringing a "safety first" attitude into disrepute.
eharding
In answer to your question, "yes", aircrew licence, controller licence, airport operations mangement qualifications and aerodrome licencing consultant with over 40 years experience in aviation from GA up to major international airports.
In answer to your question, "yes", aircrew licence, controller licence, airport operations mangement qualifications and aerodrome licencing consultant with over 40 years experience in aviation from GA up to major international airports.
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The bottom line is that H & S is an industry that is out of control and spending most of it's time inventing things to give it,s self something to do. Perhaps I have just been unlucky but all the "elf & safety" have done for me is make it harder to teach the people new to the industry to look out for danger and think about the results of actions that they might take by bringing a "safety first" attitude into disrepute.
I say this from the perspective of someone who is actually one of the legally accountable people, employs some of the best H&S people available and operates a large scale business with the best safety record in the industry. H&S is important and can work - but way to often, people do things in the name of H&S that don't add any value - when they do that, they actually take a massive step backwards because the people on the front line loose respect and stop listening.
HiViz at small airfields is one of those things. This thread goes on for pages and pages and the only facts or logic as to why HiViz is a good idea have been in the context of large aircraft ops with intense ground activity - and there it IS a good idea, along with ear defenders, toetectors, etc).
When you speak with the airfield operations people at the 'HiViz GA' airports it is clear that either the airport H&S/management team just read the CAA guidance and adopted this bit with no thought or proper risk assessment OR they have failed spectacularly in communicating to their front line staff what the risk assessment identified, the supporting data on impact and probability and why HiViz is a good mitigation.
Last edited by mm_flynn; 7th Mar 2009 at 16:36. Reason: fixed typos
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The biggest problem with all these studies about safety and the rules put in place such as Hi-Viz vests at general aviation airports is those who do these studies and dream up the rules come from the shallowest end of the human gene pool.
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They are not difficult to recognize Baby Bear due to the shallowness of their grasp on reality.....
....it was these morons who keep churning out more and more mindless rules and policies that made me decide to retire from what used to be a sane industry.
Getting out of aviation was like getting rid of a dose of the clap.
....it was these morons who keep churning out more and more mindless rules and policies that made me decide to retire from what used to be a sane industry.
Getting out of aviation was like getting rid of a dose of the clap.
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I have two true stories that do nothing but back-up my own views on the H&S culture that a lot of us find so tedious.
The first: We had landed a helicopter on a wide expanse of grass between two taxiways, as ordered by ATC, at a HUGE former RNAS airfield which is now a civil airport.
The following morning, very early, the two of us walked out to the helicopter and started preps to depart, aiming to leave as soon as the airport opened. Nothing was moving, just us.
Just as we were finishing taking the covers off, a Police car drove along the taxiway, stopped opposite us and the driver asked us if we “had any hi-viz jackets with us, and to put them on”. He’d seen us from the other side of the airfield, about half a mile away – and was driving the only thing that could have hit us.
The second: For a film, we were to land – at night - a pair of Bell Hueys on the roof of an Eastern Bloc airfield control tower. A fairly long but narrow, two story building with the ‘tower’ bit sticking up in the middle. Not too bad.
BUT, the H&S bloke insisted that to prevent people falling off the roof, a handrail be fitted around the edges! We argued against it, obviously – eventually we agreed on a 1ft high ‘triprail’ about 3ft in from the edge. We probably wouldn’t trip over that with the skids or hit it with the tail.
Unfortunately, the H&S bloke was right about someone falling off the roof, someone did – it was the poor b@$t@rd fitting the rail, he stepped back to admire his work. (He landed in a bush and was OK).
The first: We had landed a helicopter on a wide expanse of grass between two taxiways, as ordered by ATC, at a HUGE former RNAS airfield which is now a civil airport.
The following morning, very early, the two of us walked out to the helicopter and started preps to depart, aiming to leave as soon as the airport opened. Nothing was moving, just us.
Just as we were finishing taking the covers off, a Police car drove along the taxiway, stopped opposite us and the driver asked us if we “had any hi-viz jackets with us, and to put them on”. He’d seen us from the other side of the airfield, about half a mile away – and was driving the only thing that could have hit us.
The second: For a film, we were to land – at night - a pair of Bell Hueys on the roof of an Eastern Bloc airfield control tower. A fairly long but narrow, two story building with the ‘tower’ bit sticking up in the middle. Not too bad.
BUT, the H&S bloke insisted that to prevent people falling off the roof, a handrail be fitted around the edges! We argued against it, obviously – eventually we agreed on a 1ft high ‘triprail’ about 3ft in from the edge. We probably wouldn’t trip over that with the skids or hit it with the tail.
Unfortunately, the H&S bloke was right about someone falling off the roof, someone did – it was the poor b@$t@rd fitting the rail, he stepped back to admire his work. (He landed in a bush and was OK).
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At the factory I last worked at, (a very large international company) the Health & Safety Officer walked across the factory floor, paddled through a 6ft square drip tray filled with hydraulic fluid & the dissasembled pump to reach the fire door, removed the wooden wedge jamming it locked, walked outside to review some spilled diesel oil in the carpark, returned, replaced the wedge, paddled back to his office & instructed a labourer to clean up the diesel, & said not a word to anyone regarding the mess he had just seen.
On another occasion he tripped over a plastic floor tile outside his office which had curled up because they had been painted with a cellulose based, but nice looking, paint, on his instructions, & said nothing!!
It is not the H & S rules that are at fault, it is the utterly moronic numpties that apply them, or not, as they see fit that is the problem, & the reason for the contempt they are held in.
Yeller jackets are a fire hazard a security risk a waste of money & should be compulsory attire for all morons so the rest of us know who to ask where the toilets are.
Just my own opinion by the way.
On another occasion he tripped over a plastic floor tile outside his office which had curled up because they had been painted with a cellulose based, but nice looking, paint, on his instructions, & said nothing!!
It is not the H & S rules that are at fault, it is the utterly moronic numpties that apply them, or not, as they see fit that is the problem, & the reason for the contempt they are held in.
Yeller jackets are a fire hazard a security risk a waste of money & should be compulsory attire for all morons so the rest of us know who to ask where the toilets are.
Just my own opinion by the way.
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Crash One!
And I would be prepared to lay a bet that in the same, very large international, Company there were many equally incompetent individuals that were not involved in H&S!
It's a bit like saying smoking does not cause cancer because your Granny smoked 40 a day from 14 years of age and got knocked down by a bus going to collect the telgram from the Queen on her 100th birthday
It's a bit like saying smoking does not cause cancer because your Granny smoked 40 a day from 14 years of age and got knocked down by a bus going to collect the telgram from the Queen on her 100th birthday
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Absolutely.
But as I said, my opinion, I'm entitled to it.
What pisses me off is the fact that no matter how incompetent these people are, if they scream "Safety" it's like a force field, no one can argue, dissagree, or utter a word against "Safety". If you dare, you are branded a reckless, dangerous, inconsiderate fool.
Comparisons with smokers & busses is yet another smokescreen. Smoking can also kill you at this time of year, you die of hypothermia standing in the bloody rain. Is someone going to prevent us from standing in the rain?
When you give a moron a title like "Safety Officer" they become God-like, the world is theirs to control.
I digress, elfin safety aside, this is about the yeller jacket issue.
If a pilot or driver needs everyone to wear a Hi Vis thing so that he can see them then he shouldn't be flying/driving. Why doesn't everyone walking across the street wear one?
I spent some years of my youth on the flight deck of aircraft carriers. In those days if you had a yellow, red, blue or green jacket it meant you had a particular function & could be identified.
The only person I ever saw blown down the deck by a Sea Vixen was wearing a yellow jacket with Flight Deck Officer printed on the back!
The guy that got dumped 20yds up the deck with several broken ribs surely didn't expect the pilot of the Sea Venom that hit him, at night, to take avoiding action while doing a bolter?
What this nanny culture is doing is taking the personal responsibility out of everyones hands, leaving everyone vulnerable to their own stupidity & able to blame someone else.
If you feel safer wearing a Hi Vis go ahead, If I feel happy wearing knickers & flip-flops, leave me alone.
If the Hi Vis is developed to become blast proof, prop strike proof, un-run-overable etc I may agree to wear one as I wander aimlessly through motorway traffic for amusement.
But as I said, my opinion, I'm entitled to it.
What pisses me off is the fact that no matter how incompetent these people are, if they scream "Safety" it's like a force field, no one can argue, dissagree, or utter a word against "Safety". If you dare, you are branded a reckless, dangerous, inconsiderate fool.
Comparisons with smokers & busses is yet another smokescreen. Smoking can also kill you at this time of year, you die of hypothermia standing in the bloody rain. Is someone going to prevent us from standing in the rain?
When you give a moron a title like "Safety Officer" they become God-like, the world is theirs to control.
I digress, elfin safety aside, this is about the yeller jacket issue.
If a pilot or driver needs everyone to wear a Hi Vis thing so that he can see them then he shouldn't be flying/driving. Why doesn't everyone walking across the street wear one?
I spent some years of my youth on the flight deck of aircraft carriers. In those days if you had a yellow, red, blue or green jacket it meant you had a particular function & could be identified.
The only person I ever saw blown down the deck by a Sea Vixen was wearing a yellow jacket with Flight Deck Officer printed on the back!
The guy that got dumped 20yds up the deck with several broken ribs surely didn't expect the pilot of the Sea Venom that hit him, at night, to take avoiding action while doing a bolter?
What this nanny culture is doing is taking the personal responsibility out of everyones hands, leaving everyone vulnerable to their own stupidity & able to blame someone else.
If you feel safer wearing a Hi Vis go ahead, If I feel happy wearing knickers & flip-flops, leave me alone.
If the Hi Vis is developed to become blast proof, prop strike proof, un-run-overable etc I may agree to wear one as I wander aimlessly through motorway traffic for amusement.