When to give up
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JHM You are right. I paid to balls up a nav exercise big time.
As whirls says, I also paid to gain some invaluable experience, and learn from it. Although in the scheme of things it was money that I didn't want to spend, and has set me back even further, it was still beneficial and although not exactly money well spent, there was a benefit from spending it.
Remember that mankind has only had wings for 100 years, in the great evolutionary scheme this is no time at all, and whereas most people have an idea of driving or boats when they come to it, not that many have had exposure to the pointy end of a plane. Remeber 45 hours is a minimum limit, aimed at RAF cadets that do nothing else all day.
As whirls says, I also paid to gain some invaluable experience, and learn from it. Although in the scheme of things it was money that I didn't want to spend, and has set me back even further, it was still beneficial and although not exactly money well spent, there was a benefit from spending it.
Remember that mankind has only had wings for 100 years, in the great evolutionary scheme this is no time at all, and whereas most people have an idea of driving or boats when they come to it, not that many have had exposure to the pointy end of a plane. Remeber 45 hours is a minimum limit, aimed at RAF cadets that do nothing else all day.
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My thoughts regarding people having difficulites with aspects of the PPL training are:
1) you will perform infinitely better if you chill out a bit in yourself. I can remember doing my training that at the start I was so tense that my instructor sometimes couldnt use the rudder, so rigidly pressed against the pedals were my feet. I was making no progress whatsoever, with each small error making me more and more wound up and hence perform even worse. When I did my first solo however things changed dramatically. I felt like all the pressure was off me, and the subsequent improvement in my flying was so great that I finished off the PPL in chilled out ease.
In my case certainly my problems were psychological rather than due to a lack off aptitude and I think that is the case for the majority of people who get frustrated with their progress.
2) Your instructor can make a huge difference. I had a couple of different ones during my ppl, one of which was completely useless, every hour spent with him was a waste of time and money, in fact Im almost sure that he was deliberately holding things back to make me do more hours and thus pay him more money. The guy was getting me more and more wound up and things finally came to a head when during circuit training I blew my top and let fly with a torrent of abuse at him, landed the plane and ended the flight. My next flight with a different instructor was a joy, and the change of instructor enabled me to gt my first solo in and never look back.
So in essence, dont put pressure on yourself, focus on being proud of what you have learny already rather than on what you cant master and be prepared to chuck in your instructor if they are crap, which a good many of them are.
1) you will perform infinitely better if you chill out a bit in yourself. I can remember doing my training that at the start I was so tense that my instructor sometimes couldnt use the rudder, so rigidly pressed against the pedals were my feet. I was making no progress whatsoever, with each small error making me more and more wound up and hence perform even worse. When I did my first solo however things changed dramatically. I felt like all the pressure was off me, and the subsequent improvement in my flying was so great that I finished off the PPL in chilled out ease.
In my case certainly my problems were psychological rather than due to a lack off aptitude and I think that is the case for the majority of people who get frustrated with their progress.
2) Your instructor can make a huge difference. I had a couple of different ones during my ppl, one of which was completely useless, every hour spent with him was a waste of time and money, in fact Im almost sure that he was deliberately holding things back to make me do more hours and thus pay him more money. The guy was getting me more and more wound up and things finally came to a head when during circuit training I blew my top and let fly with a torrent of abuse at him, landed the plane and ended the flight. My next flight with a different instructor was a joy, and the change of instructor enabled me to gt my first solo in and never look back.
So in essence, dont put pressure on yourself, focus on being proud of what you have learny already rather than on what you cant master and be prepared to chuck in your instructor if they are crap, which a good many of them are.
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Right then. As I see it, there are 39 (ish) people, so far, all trying to encourage you here. That's a considerable amount of divese experience, but the overall picture is the same: mad_bear in an aeroplane, flying. True, there are some varieties in colour, texture, etc, but if 39 (ish) ppruners can agree 
, it must be a good picture...
, it must be a good picture...make that 40................ Stick with it Bud.
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Hi
Well, I've flown ten hours now, which is the point at which I told myself I would have to make a go/no-go decision on this flying lark. I think I've improved a bit but, because I'm flying circuits at the moment, my inability to maintain a constant direction and altitude isn't quite so obvious as it was 
I can take off, fly a circuit without getting lost, and land without the instructor grabbing the controls until the last two seconds. I feel reasonably confident that I will be able to make a solo flight before my money runs out.
But the more I think about it, the more it is clear that I will not be able to afford to fly on any kind of regular basis. It's not that I don't have the money, it's just that there are too many stronger claims on it. In a way, it would be an easier decision if I really didn't have the money; then there wouldn't even be a decision to make.
So my feeling at present is that I want to carry on until I have at least made a solo flight -- money permitting -- and then retire gracefully.
I guess the only thing that would change my mind would be finding something that is cheaper to fly in the long term, and which I could fly rather than wear. Since I'm 6'5", 17st, and 3' wide at the shoulders, that doesn't seem very likely.
Best wishes
Bear
I can take off, fly a circuit without getting lost, and land without the instructor grabbing the controls until the last two seconds. I feel reasonably confident that I will be able to make a solo flight before my money runs out.
But the more I think about it, the more it is clear that I will not be able to afford to fly on any kind of regular basis. It's not that I don't have the money, it's just that there are too many stronger claims on it. In a way, it would be an easier decision if I really didn't have the money; then there wouldn't even be a decision to make.
So my feeling at present is that I want to carry on until I have at least made a solo flight -- money permitting -- and then retire gracefully.
I guess the only thing that would change my mind would be finding something that is cheaper to fly in the long term, and which I could fly rather than wear. Since I'm 6'5", 17st, and 3' wide at the shoulders, that doesn't seem very likely.
Best wishes
Bear
The Original Whirly
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But the more I think about it, the more it is clear that I will not be able to afford to fly on any kind of regular basis. It's not that I don't have the money, it's just that there are too many stronger claims on it. In a way, it would be an easier decision if I really didn't have the money; then there wouldn't even be a decision to make.
If you want more details, mad bear, do a search for my posts - I've lived my life rather too publicly on PPRuNe for a number of years.
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Well i'm probably the youngest here, i'm only 17, but started when I was 14. And at that time they said I was the worst student going and I shouldn't fly, and don't think any of the instructors wanted to fly with me either. Then I stopped flying for 2 years. Just recently over the summer, I completed my PPL in america with first time pass in like a month and a half. So I think its about determination and not about age or skills, as its only a PPL, its a license to learn as my old instructor used to say. So don't stop yourself, go and get a new flying school or instructor, that would probably help.
Take Care and Good Luck.
Brian304
Take Care and Good Luck.
Brian304
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Hi
Fair enough, but people are all different, no? I imagine that many of the decisions I've made in the last ten years or so would have been different if I didn't have children. But I do and, while I would be happy to live in a garden shed and eat nothing but baked beans to finance my flying, they would not. Nor should they have to. Much as I like flying, my family is more important to me than flying.
The terrible thing is that, if I told my wife and kids that we had to move to a crumbly old house and give up holidays, etc., so that I could pay for my flying, they would support me. And that is precisely why I couldn't contemplate such a thing. I guess that probably makes no sense to anyone but me.
What's more, I can't really bugger off to a cheaper country for a month to learn to fly, appealing as the idea might be. If I was contemplating a career change that might be a reasonable action to take, but for a hobby? I don't think I can justify that.
I don't want to put my life story up for public scrutiny, but my wife and I put off having children until almost the latest that was biologically possible. We both had things we wanted to do that would be difficult or impossible with children. The natural consequence of this decision, however, is that my children will be entering higher education, or starting work, or whatever, sometime after I have (hopefully) retired. The money I am spending on flying -- money I am incontrovertibly spending on myself -- is money that I ought to be saving to give the next generation of Bears a helping hand when they need it most. Of course, they may grow up to be stockbrokers or captains of industry, in which case they can bloody well pay for me to resume flying in my dotage
It's not a case of planning my life to the last dotted t, but having children in your 40s does mean you have to be a bit careful about long-term finances. You don't have as long to recover from financial screw-ups that affect your kids as you do when you're 20.
As I said, the situation would perhaps be different if I could fly anything smaller than a C172; but anything smaller is like a coat on me.
Best wishes
Bear
Oh dear, what a dilemma! Sometimes I am just so, so glad that I'm an impulsive person who doesn't plan my life down to the last dotted i and crossed t....or I'd never ever have made it to this great job I have as a flying instructor. After all, none of my decisions about flying made any long term sense, as lots of people made it their business to tell me at the time. But I went with the flow, and my gut feelings, and what I wanted to do at the time, and it worked.
The terrible thing is that, if I told my wife and kids that we had to move to a crumbly old house and give up holidays, etc., so that I could pay for my flying, they would support me. And that is precisely why I couldn't contemplate such a thing. I guess that probably makes no sense to anyone but me.
What's more, I can't really bugger off to a cheaper country for a month to learn to fly, appealing as the idea might be. If I was contemplating a career change that might be a reasonable action to take, but for a hobby? I don't think I can justify that.
I don't want to put my life story up for public scrutiny, but my wife and I put off having children until almost the latest that was biologically possible. We both had things we wanted to do that would be difficult or impossible with children. The natural consequence of this decision, however, is that my children will be entering higher education, or starting work, or whatever, sometime after I have (hopefully) retired. The money I am spending on flying -- money I am incontrovertibly spending on myself -- is money that I ought to be saving to give the next generation of Bears a helping hand when they need it most. Of course, they may grow up to be stockbrokers or captains of industry, in which case they can bloody well pay for me to resume flying in my dotage
It's not a case of planning my life to the last dotted t, but having children in your 40s does mean you have to be a bit careful about long-term finances. You don't have as long to recover from financial screw-ups that affect your kids as you do when you're 20.
As I said, the situation would perhaps be different if I could fly anything smaller than a C172; but anything smaller is like a coat on me.
Best wishes
Bear
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Best to retire gtracefully now then. No point in wasting the money on getting solo and giving up because if you dont make it in the budget you will be even more dissapointed.
Good luck in the future.
Good luck in the future.
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If there is any way at all of completeing that PPL, mb, - do it! With the right group, and depending what sort of flying you want to do, post-PPL flying can be a lot cheaper than flying training - with some experience under your belt it can even be free!
It's very easy to justify giving up, and maybe you should. But I'd advise that, if it's at all possible, then live your dream. It'll be worth it.
It's very easy to justify giving up, and maybe you should. But I'd advise that, if it's at all possible, then live your dream. It'll be worth it.
Last edited by Shaggy Sheep Driver; 31st Oct 2006 at 10:11.
The Original Whirly
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OK, mad bear, point taken. No, I don't have kids, and it does make a difference. But neither am I 20...in fact, I can hardly even remember being 20. 
.
So, here's a possible plan of action for you....
Do all the flying you can now, until the money you can sensibly spend on flying runs out. Don't worry about whether that's after first solo, halfway through, when you're nearly there, or whatever. So long as you're enjoying it, stop being so goal-orientated and just fly.
Don't retire. Or retire, and get another job. Or move to part time work. Use the extra money to fly. Or use it now to fly, and work then to help your kids. If they need your help that much...I had an idea that starting work meant you were earning money so didn't need parental help. But like you said, I don't have kids, and I'm not planning on telling you how to bring yours up.
60 or thereabouts is NOT 'in your dotage', not these days. No, I'm not quite that old, but pretty close. So trust me on this. And having started a new career fairly recently, no way am I going to retire simply because the calendar says I should, or because our ageist society thinks I'm getting old. Now, maybe you're in a job which will make you retire, but there's nothing to stop you doing something else to earn money, if you want to. Maybe you don't. Maybe you want to put your feet up. Fair enough. But I think you have a choice.
What I'm trying to say is that I think you have options. But I'm beginning to get the feeling that you're talking yourself out of continuing with flying by saying that you don't - that you can't afford it, that there's nothing you fit into, that it'll take you too long, etc etc. Look, if you want to give up, give up. It's your choice. But maybe you should look at what you really want rather than clouding the issue so thoroughly.
. So, here's a possible plan of action for you....
Do all the flying you can now, until the money you can sensibly spend on flying runs out. Don't worry about whether that's after first solo, halfway through, when you're nearly there, or whatever. So long as you're enjoying it, stop being so goal-orientated and just fly.
Don't retire. Or retire, and get another job. Or move to part time work. Use the extra money to fly. Or use it now to fly, and work then to help your kids. If they need your help that much...I had an idea that starting work meant you were earning money so didn't need parental help. But like you said, I don't have kids, and I'm not planning on telling you how to bring yours up.
60 or thereabouts is NOT 'in your dotage', not these days. No, I'm not quite that old, but pretty close. So trust me on this. And having started a new career fairly recently, no way am I going to retire simply because the calendar says I should, or because our ageist society thinks I'm getting old. Now, maybe you're in a job which will make you retire, but there's nothing to stop you doing something else to earn money, if you want to. Maybe you don't. Maybe you want to put your feet up. Fair enough. But I think you have a choice.
What I'm trying to say is that I think you have options. But I'm beginning to get the feeling that you're talking yourself out of continuing with flying by saying that you don't - that you can't afford it, that there's nothing you fit into, that it'll take you too long, etc etc. Look, if you want to give up, give up. It's your choice. But maybe you should look at what you really want rather than clouding the issue so thoroughly.
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As usual it is hard to disagree with what Whirls says.
Although I am a pesimistic soul at the best of times, even I do not think that I'll never fly again. Alright I have had to concede that I am not going to fly again this year, and to be honest the future doesn't look that rosy anyway. My option is a return to being a part time DJ, something I stopped doing earlier this year to spend time with my family, somthing that I don't really want to return to either.
Yes, I know what a strain it can be with kids, but as for your kids needing funding when you are in your dotage, well as Whirls says, 60+ is not a dotage these days. Indeed I have many a "right hand seat ride" from an old guy at my old club, now well into his 80's he keeps having the odd hour here and there. As long as you can pass the medical, there is nothing to stop you from flying at 120 years old.
It does sound like you are trying to justify not doing it to yourself though, and with a family at the heart and root of your anguish, it is easy to understand your rationale. As I said on a earlier post, after first solo you can call yourself a pilot. No-one can take that away from you.
On the other hand, I appreciate that going abroad is a lot cheaper, it is just a matter of justifying the time away from home. As for it being a decision for career not hobby, well, I can assure you that post ppl flying does get cheaper, even if you rent a club plane you are not paying for an instructor are you? Or you can join a group or whatever. I can also assure you that your flying career will outlast your employment one! Remember that in aviation even the amateurs have to behave like professionals if they want grey hair! (attributed to Alan "Bunny" Bramson)
The final decision is always going to be yours. Only you can justify the expense to yourself and your family, and it is certainly noble that you do put your family before yourself, many these days don't. I do this as well, although I do trade a little to enable a spot of aviation here and there.
I once heard of two old guys, well into their 80's, with type ratings that include Hurricane and Spitfire if you get my meaning. One was totally blind, the other as deaf as a post. Every now and then they would pitch up at the flying club to go flying. OK the CFI always went with them, as neither could hold a medical, but it was always claimed that the blind guy was a better pilot than a lot could ever hope to be and could do straight and level better than anyone! The moral of this story is that these two guys had a love of flying, and although mother nature hadn't been kind to them on the medial front they still wanted to, and did, get into the air whenever they wanted. They commited aviation, we all have our own brand of it you know.
Today we have project propeller. This is a charity where ppl's with access to a plane take WW2 pilot veterans from an airfield local to where they live to a fly in, and take them home again afterwards. This embodies the debt we all owe to anyone from that era, and secondly what a great and kind group we are in aviation. This thread embodies that, in that we have all given our time to help you, point you in the right direction and provide advice where we can. The final decision has to be yours, and I hope you make the right decision, whtaever it may be, for the right reasons. Sometines you have to do something for yourself you know!
Just one final point, you will let us know your final decision, wont you?
Although I am a pesimistic soul at the best of times, even I do not think that I'll never fly again. Alright I have had to concede that I am not going to fly again this year, and to be honest the future doesn't look that rosy anyway. My option is a return to being a part time DJ, something I stopped doing earlier this year to spend time with my family, somthing that I don't really want to return to either.
Yes, I know what a strain it can be with kids, but as for your kids needing funding when you are in your dotage, well as Whirls says, 60+ is not a dotage these days. Indeed I have many a "right hand seat ride" from an old guy at my old club, now well into his 80's he keeps having the odd hour here and there. As long as you can pass the medical, there is nothing to stop you from flying at 120 years old.
It does sound like you are trying to justify not doing it to yourself though, and with a family at the heart and root of your anguish, it is easy to understand your rationale. As I said on a earlier post, after first solo you can call yourself a pilot. No-one can take that away from you.
On the other hand, I appreciate that going abroad is a lot cheaper, it is just a matter of justifying the time away from home. As for it being a decision for career not hobby, well, I can assure you that post ppl flying does get cheaper, even if you rent a club plane you are not paying for an instructor are you? Or you can join a group or whatever. I can also assure you that your flying career will outlast your employment one! Remember that in aviation even the amateurs have to behave like professionals if they want grey hair! (attributed to Alan "Bunny" Bramson)
The final decision is always going to be yours. Only you can justify the expense to yourself and your family, and it is certainly noble that you do put your family before yourself, many these days don't. I do this as well, although I do trade a little to enable a spot of aviation here and there.
I once heard of two old guys, well into their 80's, with type ratings that include Hurricane and Spitfire if you get my meaning. One was totally blind, the other as deaf as a post. Every now and then they would pitch up at the flying club to go flying. OK the CFI always went with them, as neither could hold a medical, but it was always claimed that the blind guy was a better pilot than a lot could ever hope to be and could do straight and level better than anyone! The moral of this story is that these two guys had a love of flying, and although mother nature hadn't been kind to them on the medial front they still wanted to, and did, get into the air whenever they wanted. They commited aviation, we all have our own brand of it you know.
Today we have project propeller. This is a charity where ppl's with access to a plane take WW2 pilot veterans from an airfield local to where they live to a fly in, and take them home again afterwards. This embodies the debt we all owe to anyone from that era, and secondly what a great and kind group we are in aviation. This thread embodies that, in that we have all given our time to help you, point you in the right direction and provide advice where we can. The final decision has to be yours, and I hope you make the right decision, whtaever it may be, for the right reasons. Sometines you have to do something for yourself you know!
Just one final point, you will let us know your final decision, wont you?
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I totally know what you mean Paris. I got up this morning took one look out of the window and thought "nice day for flying". Not "I need to de-ice the car" or anything to do with work, just nice day for flying.
This has to be the qualifier to the question "are you hooked?"
This has to be the qualifier to the question "are you hooked?"
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Hi
I dunno... some of the comments above make me sound like an unadventurous, plodding old fart. I'm not like that, really I'm not.
Or am I?
When I say ``I would really like to fly but, having regard to my family responsibilities, I don't think I can justify the cost in the long term'', perhaps that automatically makes me a plodding, unadventurous old fart?
Perhaps it is the case that you can only fly (for a hobby, not a job) if you're the kind of person who says `To hell with the future!'. Maybe being the kind of person who likes to know the long-term costs necessarily makes me unsuitable for flying? Or is it that thinking that there might just be more important things than flying, denotes a fatal lack of enthusiasm?
Comments welcome.
Best wishes
Bear
Or am I?
When I say ``I would really like to fly but, having regard to my family responsibilities, I don't think I can justify the cost in the long term'', perhaps that automatically makes me a plodding, unadventurous old fart?
Perhaps it is the case that you can only fly (for a hobby, not a job) if you're the kind of person who says `To hell with the future!'. Maybe being the kind of person who likes to know the long-term costs necessarily makes me unsuitable for flying? Or is it that thinking that there might just be more important things than flying, denotes a fatal lack of enthusiasm?
Comments welcome.
Best wishes
Bear
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You have to WANT to do it badly enough that you will..... else you won't, if you get me drift.
SSD
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Students
The only one who ever worried me was one when asked what his first thoughts on engine failure were thought for a while. I drank my coffee, fed my dog and planned the next ice age. Eventually he came up with "someones responsible!" He was planning to sue the engine builder rather than try and get it down.
I passed him onwards but whether he ever go tthe idea i don't know!
I passed him onwards but whether he ever go tthe idea i don't know!
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As I have said before, not a single one of us can afford this hobby. Some may have more financial resources than others, but no-one can actually afford it when the benchmark is family, houses, holidays and so-on.
We all have pulls on our money, it is a question of what you do with the disposable part that leaves room for manouver. It works like this, say I have enough disposable income to take my family to Florida for 3 weeks every year. Why not have 2 weeks in Spain or France, works out about half the price, and guess what happens with the balance??? Buy a new car every 4 years and not every 2. You get the picture?
No-one can fault you at all for putting your family first, we have all done that, and indeed that is what I am doing at the moment, self enforced grounding as the resources I made available have gone. It would be very easy for me to apply for another credit card and carry on. But how would I make the payments?
The thing to remember, and I have said this before as well, is that no matter what your money problems are, in the air is no place to consider them. I had a raging fit at the £10 a go landing fees at Sandtoft the other week, I was told of the cost on the 4th circuit. My fit started after landing, not before. If you start worrying about a landing fee at 50' on final with a 10kt crosswind I can guarentee that you will get more for your fee than you bargained for, things like firemen, ambulances, AAIB insectors, things like that.
Why not make the learning process part of your long term goal for flying. For instance, this year aim for first solo then stop. Next year aim to get upto nav then stop. The year after aim to finish it off. There is no time limit on the learning process and hours done now will still count towards the 45 in 10 or 20 years time, so what's the rush? Why put yourself through this, just re-evaluate your aiming points and stop trying to jump through hoops. You are not training to be an airline pilot, so you are, like the rest of us, flying for fun. Don't beat yourself up about it, just have fun and enjoy it!
We all have pulls on our money, it is a question of what you do with the disposable part that leaves room for manouver. It works like this, say I have enough disposable income to take my family to Florida for 3 weeks every year. Why not have 2 weeks in Spain or France, works out about half the price, and guess what happens with the balance??? Buy a new car every 4 years and not every 2. You get the picture?
No-one can fault you at all for putting your family first, we have all done that, and indeed that is what I am doing at the moment, self enforced grounding as the resources I made available have gone. It would be very easy for me to apply for another credit card and carry on. But how would I make the payments?
The thing to remember, and I have said this before as well, is that no matter what your money problems are, in the air is no place to consider them. I had a raging fit at the £10 a go landing fees at Sandtoft the other week, I was told of the cost on the 4th circuit. My fit started after landing, not before. If you start worrying about a landing fee at 50' on final with a 10kt crosswind I can guarentee that you will get more for your fee than you bargained for, things like firemen, ambulances, AAIB insectors, things like that.
Why not make the learning process part of your long term goal for flying. For instance, this year aim for first solo then stop. Next year aim to get upto nav then stop. The year after aim to finish it off. There is no time limit on the learning process and hours done now will still count towards the 45 in 10 or 20 years time, so what's the rush? Why put yourself through this, just re-evaluate your aiming points and stop trying to jump through hoops. You are not training to be an airline pilot, so you are, like the rest of us, flying for fun. Don't beat yourself up about it, just have fun and enjoy it!
The answer to that problem could be to buy a share in a Beagle Pup 150 - shame I sold mine a couple of years ago.